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Author Topic: Things that made you laugh today: some people notice when 1 change the title  (Read 1560551 times)

redwallzyl

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Re: Things that made you laugh today: 8582 chuckles and counting
« Reply #8460 on: February 24, 2018, 11:39:16 pm »

Faith makes some people create some weird ass shit. And I say that as someone who still counts as faithful. O.o
Short version. People are super weird.
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TD1

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Re: Things that made you laugh today: 8582 chuckles and counting
« Reply #8461 on: February 25, 2018, 12:42:50 pm »

And... religious people are super duper weird?
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redwallzyl

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Re: Things that made you laugh today: 8582 chuckles and counting
« Reply #8462 on: February 25, 2018, 02:04:07 pm »

And... religious people are super duper weird?
No, just super weird in different ways.
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you laugh today: 8582 chuckles and counting
« Reply #8463 on: February 25, 2018, 05:48:22 pm »

Any belief system can go off the rails in the same way that religions do, really. The justifications between religious and non-religious institutions may be different, but the power structures and psychology behind belief systems are the same.

So, many secular belief systems, especially politicized ones, have a psychological level similar to religions or cults. And ... it shouldn't be any surprise that this is the case. If you're an atheist, you should believe that all phenomena happen because of discernible physical laws - or because of basic human psychology in the case of religions. Therefore religion operates because of human psychology, which also underlies other belief systems, therefore other belief systems also suffer from the same psychological phenomena that religions so.

e.g. it's actually quite irrational for atheists to believe there are special "rules of delusion" that cover all other belief systems, that atheists are somehow intrinsically exempt from. Each religion happens to believe that they are the one true "rational" one and everyone else is irrational. So in this case, atheists holding "we're the only truly rational ones" is in fact acting exactly like religious people.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 05:57:39 pm by Reelya »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Things that made you laugh today: 8582 chuckles and counting
« Reply #8464 on: February 25, 2018, 06:39:04 pm »

So, many secular belief systems, especially politicized ones, have a psychological level similar to religions or cults. And ... it shouldn't be any surprise that this is the case. If you're an atheist, you should believe that all phenomena happen because of discernible physical laws - or because of basic human psychology in the case of religions. Therefore religion operates because of human psychology, which also underlies other belief systems, therefore other belief systems also suffer from the same psychological phenomena that religions so.
You'll pardon me snipping out the rest of your post, because I agree with it and have nought else to say about it besides that I agree. But regarding whether atheists ought to believe that all phenomena happen because of discernible physical laws, atheists need not. Just as with religions, atheists are also divided over the concept of a materialistic deterministic world, or one in which quantum chaos introduces a level of randomness which allows the world to happen in a manner that cannot be discerned. It's like the metaphysical version of questioning free will, whether everything that happens would always have happened as such, in accordance with defined physical laws

TD1

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Re: Things that made you laugh today: 8582 chuckles and counting
« Reply #8465 on: February 25, 2018, 06:53:14 pm »

I get the logic, though I disagree with it. Politics, though often false, at least strives to respond to realities; religion by its nature flirts with the irrational.
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you laugh today: 8582 chuckles and counting
« Reply #8466 on: February 25, 2018, 06:57:48 pm »

I'd argue that's not quite correct. Plenty of things that aren't overtly religious have an irrational basis. Both religion and politics claim to be rational. It's just a cognitive bias that says all religions are irrational and non-religion things are rational.

Try using evidence and facts against hardliners of any end of the political spectrum. Evidence and facts are just about the least effective mode of convincing someone of something. Emotional appeals always beat that.

e.g. climate change, moon landing hoax, birthers, 9/11 truthers, one one end. None of that is at all logical, yet none of it is religious either. And the far left have their own versions of all this stuff. And you can't even question those views without screaming wailing and accusations. You can just what is "religiously" believed by how agonized the believers get when their worldview is questioned. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth when radical leftist ideas are questioned with actual research or evidence.

Going "so the capitalist patriarchy got to you too ..." whenever you provide evidence that disagrees with them is objectively the same tactic as claiming all naysayers with evidence are influenced by the devil: if you dismiss the influence of the devil, that's only because the devil influenced you to say that. e.g. a secular example would be if you provided concrete evidence and a logic-based argument that the "rape culture" thing is an overblown moral panic then you're met by the counter-argument that you're an agent of the rape culture. This is religious panic style thinking: the hysteria, the conspiracies, and the labeling of all who question the conspiracy as being agents of the conspiracy.

EDIT: the irony with the rape culture thing is that people who push "rape culture" are the ones agitating for women to be scared by hyping up the statistics and fears at every possible moment, thus ensuring women are as scared as possible. While the supposed agents of "rape culture" are apparently those who downplay the situation and point at statistics showing women are safer than ever. Which group, exactly, is using fear of rape to control women? I'd say the group who is trying to maximize women's fear is logically the one using fear. It's an oxymoron to label people who are trying to minimize fear as the fear merchants. But this is what you expect from quack thinking, and it's a system of thought processes common to many types of extreme ideology, including religions.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 07:42:58 pm by Reelya »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Things that made you laugh today: 8582 chuckles and counting
« Reply #8467 on: February 25, 2018, 07:14:58 pm »

I get the logic, though I disagree with it. Politics, though often false, at least strives to respond to realities; religion by its nature flirts with the irrational.
Politics, by its nature, strives for compromises which renders truth as a matter of subjective relativity. Religion by its nature strives for objective truth, which is why the Romans divided their Religio from their Superstitio to begin with. That said, religion may do both, depending upon the religion. Platonic Islam is not Mystic Islam for example. But without derailing my own point further, my point is that religion strives to find an objective truth to reality, politics by the very nature of political ideology seeks to respond to reality by telling its partisans how to view reality, through an ideological lens which removes them from reality.

TD1

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Re: Things that made you laugh today: 8582 chuckles and counting
« Reply #8468 on: February 25, 2018, 07:27:31 pm »

I'd argue that's not quite correct. Plenty of things that aren't overtly religious have an irrational basis. Both religion and politics claim to be rational. It's just a cognitive bias that says all religions are irrational and non-religion things are rational.

Try using evidence and facts against hardliners of any end of the political spectrum. Evidence and facts are just about the least effective mode of convincing someone of something. Emotional appeals always beat that.

e.g. climate change, moon landing hoax, birthers, 9/11 truthers, one one end. None of that is at all logical, yet none of it is religious either. And the far left have their own versions of all this stuff. And you can't even question those views without screaming wailing and accusations. You can just what is "religiously" believed by how agonized the believers get when their worldview is questioned. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth when radical leftist ideas are questioned with actual research or evidence.

Going "so the capitalist patriarchy got to you too ..." whenever you provide evidence that disagrees with them is objectively the same tactic as claiming all naysayers with evidence are influenced by the devil: if you dismiss the influence of the devil, that's only because the devil influenced you to say that. e.g. a secular example would be if you provided concrete evidence and a logic-based argument that the "rape culture" thing is an overblown moral panic then you're met by the counter-argument that you're an agent of the rape culture. This is religious panic style thinking: the hysteria, the conspiracies, and the labeling of all who question the conspiracy as being agents of the conspiracy.

Certainly. But politics strives to reflect reality, because reflecting reality (or facets of it) gets the most votes. Those systems which try to create a new reality can only do so to a certain degree before their system collapses. LW claims that "politics, by its nature, strives for compromises which renders truth as a matter of subjective relativity." This is, of course, true. To an extent. But those compromises must meet the demands of reality or be disregarded by the general populace. Oft times through the use of the great cleanser which is violence.

Religion meets basic needs within the human psyche - community, love, security in self. Purpose. But its fancies, compared to politics, require much, much, much less grounding in the rational world we inhabit. Which is why when politics meets religion, it becomes a particularly volatile mix. The reality which politics strives to meet in such cases is that of the believer, which is even further divorced from actual reality than normal politics.
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you laugh today: 8582 chuckles and counting
« Reply #8469 on: February 25, 2018, 07:44:14 pm »

Quote
Religion meets basic needs within the human psyche - community, love, security in self.

Those basic needs don't go away when you lose religion however. And non-religious belief systems tap into both the same needs and the same psychology. Humans are humans, which is why belief systems share the same distortions of thinking, and whether you formally believe in a god you can't see, or scientific information you can't verify, the base mentality is often indistinguishable. (e.g. that sense of smugness because you believe in the "right" God doesn't go away when people believe the "null God hypothesis". They just become smug about "null God").

So, i would argue it's yet another human folly to believe we "transcended" anything when we merely shed the idea of God. We just switch our screwed-up thinking from one set of rationalizations to another new set.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 07:53:59 pm by Reelya »
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Tawa

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Re: Things that made you laugh today: 8582 chuckles and counting
« Reply #8470 on: February 25, 2018, 07:57:30 pm »

And the far left have their own versions of all this stuff. And you can't even question those views without screaming wailing and accusations. You can just what is "religiously" believed by how agonized the believers get when their worldview is questioned. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth when radical leftist ideas are questioned with actual research or evidence.

Going "so the capitalist patriarchy got to you too ..." whenever you provide evidence that disagrees with them is objectively the same tactic as claiming all naysayers with evidence are influenced by the devil: if you dismiss the influence of the devil, that's only because the devil influenced you to say that. e.g. a secular example would be if you provided concrete evidence and a logic-based argument that the "rape culture" thing is an overblown moral panic then you're met by the counter-argument that you're an agent of the rape culture. This is religious panic style thinking: the hysteria, the conspiracies, and the labeling of all who question the conspiracy as being agents of the conspiracy.

EDIT: the irony with the rape culture thing is that feminists who push "rape culture" are the ones agitating for women to be scared by hyping up the statistics and fears at every possible moment, thus ensuring women are as scared as possible. While the supposed agents of "rape culture" are apparently those who downplay the situation and point at statistics showing women are safer than ever. Which group, exactly, is using fear of rape to control women? I'd say the group who is trying to maximize women's fear is logically the one using fear. It's an oxymoron to label people who are trying to minimize fear as the fear merchants. But this is what you expect from quack thinking, and it's a system of thought processes common to many types of extreme ideology, including religions.
Man, I see you complaining about the "radical left" constantly, but I don't think I've ever seen you give an example of who, exactly, you're talking about. Can you give us an actual name for once?
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you laugh today: 8582 chuckles and counting
« Reply #8471 on: February 25, 2018, 07:59:08 pm »

People like Antifa and Big Red are public examples. TERFs are another example, but they're part of a bigger group too. Radfems in general are pretty toxic, and they constantly and provably cherry pick and distort the data they cite, in ways that would make a creationist blush.

One example is from Australia, but it's just one example of many. There was a survey on domestic violence which found mothers and fathers were equally likely to be observed hitting each other by children, at 22% and 23%, but the report went out "almost 1 in 4 children have seen their father hit their mother". This is pretty typical. Politicizing and gendering things that aren't in fact gendered. Here's the source:
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inquirer/domestic-violence-data-shows-women-are-not-the-only-victims/news-story/2749c4517a57c33aca8bc2da9a40e2f9

Quote
“Up to one quarter of young people in Australia have witnessed an incident of physical or domestic violence against their mother or stepmother,” Adam Graycar, a former director of the Australian Institute of Criminology, wrote in an introduction to a 2001 paper, Young Australians and Domestic Violence, a brief overview of the much larger Young People and Domestic Violence study.

Somehow Graycar failed to mention that while 23 per cent of young people were aware of domestic violence against their mothers or stepmothers, an almost identical proportion (22 per cent) of young people were aware of domestic violence against their fathers or stepfathers by their mothers or stepmothers — as shown in the same study.

This is the type of thing I'm talking about, people who cherry pick their own data to win recruits for a particular ideology, regardless of what their own research actually stated. They're driven by ideology first and foremost, and facts are only acquired as a secondary thing, just be careful to not collect the wrong facts, or you'll need to bury them in the report. This is why many domestic violence research programs avoid asking non-gendered questions, because they then get non-gendered answers, which are inconvenient when they go against your doctrine. So it's safer to completely filter out questions beforehand that tend to give non-gendered results so you know you'll get the gendered results desired.

So, they're starting from the "ideological truth" they wish to prove, then looking for confirming evidence for that "truth". And when they find evidence that their own ideology is wrong, they bury that evidence, and label anyone who brings up their own evidence as part of the "conspiracy". That's what has happened to the reporter who wrote about this: she is now accused of being part of the "patriarchal conspiracy" for pointing out their hypocrisy*

* The hypocrisy here is that they're sweeping literally half the incidents of domestic violence under the bed, because they don't like the gender of the victims (male), and they don't want to accuse the perpetrators because of their gender (female), a clear double-standard, while they're labeling anyone who says to look at all domestic violence sufferers as equal as merely the patriarchy trying to "downplay" women's suffering. Domestic violence is wrong, full stop. Acknowledging that their are twice as many victims as previously thought isn't "downplaying" anything. e.g. say there were provably twice as many female victims as previously thought, nobody would claim that adding them to the list of victims was "downplaying" anything. So ... if we're doubling the number of victims, and pointing out that almost half of them are men, exactly how is that doing a disservice to other victims? It's an incredibly sexist double standard to not allow additional victims to be acknowledged because they don't fit the theory.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 08:32:26 pm by Reelya »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Things that made you laugh today: 8582 chuckles and counting
« Reply #8472 on: February 25, 2018, 08:03:14 pm »

Certainly. But politics strives to reflect reality, because reflecting reality (or facets of it) gets the most votes.
I disagree entirely, we live in the fake news era of politics, where politics strives to reflect what maintains the most corporate acceptability. Whatever maintains the support of the modern estates has all the resources and tools needed to set public opinion, public opinion is not based upon who reflects reality the most, but on who has the loyalty of the most opinion setters.

Those systems which try to create a new reality can only do so to a certain degree before their system collapses. LW claims that "politics, by its nature, strives for compromises which renders truth as a matter of subjective relativity." This is, of course, true. To an extent. But those compromises must meet the demands of reality or be disregarded by the general populace. Oft times through the use of the great cleanser which is violence.
They don't at all have to meet the demands of reality for the general populace to react with apathy or even support. That's why politics sucks fish heads. For 3,000 years a long line of Chinese and Roman statesmen have known that as long as people have their bread and circuses they'll be happy to support systems, new and old alike. Just look at our modern financial system, we have 300 years of optimistic greed leading into increasingly bigger collapses and corrections, yet every time the system collapses, our political machines do not reflect reality and instead seek the continuation of these systems yet further. The general populace does not care that no wealth is being generated, until the appearance of wealth generation disappears, and the reality of their lost money dawns on them. Yet the lessons learned from these experiences are never brought into the next political cycle, which is evidence enough that politics need not represent reality or even attempt to. Simply put, the system which invented spin doctors, PR consultants and biased journalism do not view objectivity as little more than an anchor keeping them away from popularity.

Religion meets basic needs within the human psyche - community, love, security in self. Purpose. But its fancies, compared to politics, require much, much, much less grounding in the rational world we inhabit. Which is why when politics meets religion, it becomes a particularly volatile mix. The reality which politics strives to meet in such cases is that of the believer, which is even further divorced from actual reality than normal politics.
I disagree yet further. Politics is responsible for providing community, love, security in self and purpose, and seeing it in these terms is still seeing religion in political terms - seeing it as another tool to be used. It is only when religion is divorced from the objectivity of its own truth by politics that both conspire to delude its followers in the most mercenary ways. Look at the example of the British, which contains multiple cases of this. Where the British destroyed the Indian priestly castes they created Hindu extremists, where the American colony removed all institutional oversight they created creationists and apocalyptic revalationists and so on. And of course, the birth of the modern day "spiritualist, but not religious," which paradoxically causes secular nations to create armies of fundamentalist warriors, aimed at inwards destruction. Where politics destroys religion, it creates political dogmatists, who yearn for objective truth in a political system which inherently disallows any truth. Our contemporary political system is built on the very premise that you can decide for the general populace what is accepted as reality in normal politics

Also what are TERFs? I've never heard of those before

Tawa

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Re: Things that made you laugh today: 8582 chuckles and counting
« Reply #8473 on: February 25, 2018, 08:14:13 pm »

People like Antifa and Big Red are public examples.

TERFs are another example, but they're part of a bigger group too. Radfems in general are pretty toxic, and they constantly and provably cherry pick and distort the data they cite, in ways that would make a creationist blush.

One example is from Australia, but it's just one example of many. There was a survey on domestic violence which found mothers and fathers were equally likely to be observed hitting each other by children, at 22% and 23%, but the report went out "almost 1 in 4 children have seen their father hit their mother". This is pretty typical. Politicizing and gendering things that aren't in fact gendered. This is the type of person I'm talking about, the type that put spreading panic ahead of basic facts.
I asked for a name. You give me an amorphous organization with wildly varying practices and ideals, a couple of catch-all terms, a disparaging nickname for someone who argued with some MRAs seven years ago, and a vague description of an article you read this one time paired with a claim this is representative of all articles.

Seriously. Can you name somebody? Present some sort of evidence? I mean, you didn't even describe what you think "Antifa" does or is, and it seems like nobody can agree on what Antifa does or is.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Things that made you laugh today: 8582 chuckles and counting
« Reply #8474 on: February 25, 2018, 08:22:57 pm »

I asked for a name. You give me an amorphous organization with wildly varying practices and ideals, a couple of catch-all terms, a disparaging nickname for someone who argued with some MRAs seven years ago, and a vague description of an article you read this one time paired with a claim this is representative of all articles.

Seriously. Can you name somebody? Present some sort of evidence? I mean, you didn't even describe what you think "Antifa" does or is, and it seems like nobody can agree on what Antifa does or is.
Quote
Antifa, shorthand for anti-fascist organisations, refers to a loose coalition of decentralised, grassroots groups opposed to the many guises of the extreme right.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/antifa-domestic-terrorists-us-security-agencies-homeland-security-fbi-a7927881.html

Quote
Previously unreported documents disclose that by April 2016, authorities believed that “anarchist extremists” were the primary instigators of violence at public rallies against a range of targets. They were blamed by authorities for attacks on the police, government and political institutions, along with symbols of “the capitalist system,” racism, social injustice and fascism, according to a confidential 2016 joint intelligence assessment by DHS and the FBI.
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/01/antifa-charlottesville-violence-fbi-242235

Antifa is like alt-right, a brand denoting a broad collection of individual groups spread over a political theatre, independent in operations but unified in common ideological purpose. They usually just call themselves Antifa [city name here] though you have other groups that go by other names, like BAMN
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