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Author Topic: [WARLOCK] - Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 169454 times)

IndigoFenix

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Collecting Ideas
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2013, 05:03:20 am »

To balance out the ability to summon demons, maybe make it so that you can only bind a demon after breaching the HFS and successfully containing and isolating a demon behind walls?  THAT would make it risky enough, I think.  Just make a workshop granting a short-range, wall-penetrating interaction that only affects demons using the Demonbreaker trick from the Advanced Modding Tutorial and use dfhack to make it friendly (maybe with a small possibility of going berserk later.

Also, have you considered the possibility of easy magma spawning?  Maybe it doesn't fit the aesthetic but nothing rounds out an evil fortress like copious lava pits in my opinion.

fasquardon

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Collecting Ideas
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2013, 07:47:44 am »

This looks pretty interesting.  I agree that HFS should not be friendly.

For making the Warlock nobles have their own sprite, what you could do is make the Warlocks an intelligent pet that was eligible to become a noble.  The intelligent controllable units would then be the Warlock's thralls.  The warlocks could also be an egg laying animal (similar to golden geese).  They could lay "soul shards" that would be used to create high level buildings, magic items, summon thralls and consecrate a new warlock (for example, a reaction consuming 10 soul shards would target an intelligent enemy in a cage to induct the human, dwarf or what have you into a practicing warlock).  Like making armoured pets, you could also have different warlock "levels", each with their own spells.  This is basically how I was planning on doing the demon kings in the goblin plugin I have slowly been working my way towards making.

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shadowclasper

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Collecting Ideas
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2013, 04:41:23 am »

They should be able to make constructs that siphon the souls of those that die near to them, and release a bunch of angry, murderous ghosts if they're broken by a building destroyer before those souls can be harvested.

Another thing they should be able to do is capture ghosts who spawn due to improper burials.

edit: also on the HFS front.

Demons are honor bound to destroy and obliterate any 'mortals' they run into. Just because warlocks don't age doesn't mean they're immortal like demons are.

They can bargain with demons, but if a demon breaks free from it's conditions it becomes hostile.

Example: you pay souls to summon a demon, and use souls to forge things to bind the demon to a specific area.

The demon will preform tasks in that area. They might be used for crafting for example. Or as guards, whatever. The point is that as long as they remain within the binding area, they're good.

If the binding area is disturbed by something, say by a building destroyer knocking over one of the binding constructions, the the demon becomes free and hostile.

Special items can be used to turn demons into tamed 'pets' war and hunting animals basically. They'd be some kind of clothing that could in theory be removed. If the demon survives the removal, they'd become hostile.

Basically. The idea is that demon summoning should have AMAZING benefits, but be risky as fucking hell. One wrong move, and you might as well have opened the HFS.

It also explains why opening the HFS would be bad news for Warlocks, and why you wouldn't just start off aligned to them.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 04:45:56 am by shadowclasper »
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ThaMuzz

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Collecting Ideas
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2013, 09:19:09 am »

Is it taken as a given that Warlocks would make heavy use of Broodlords/Broodmothers for slave/sacrifices?  Perhaps the Broodmother could be altered to produce children of a variety of races instead of just dwarf slaves.  These slaves would then be sacrificed to create skeleton warriors/workers, summon demons and power advanced industry.

Similarly, I'd suggest that Warlocks would get different uses out of changlings than dwarfs do.  In addition to familiars, they would be able to create things like plaugelings instead of magmalings.  A Plaugelings would spread syndrome materials on command, allowing the fortress to protect itself with toxic barriers.
Other changling derived creatures (flilthlings, festerlings, puslings) could be milked for useful reagents for Warlock Alchemy.
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LMeire

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Collecting Ideas
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2013, 03:11:36 pm »

So warlocks are like the mad scientists of the MWDF multiverse, right? Cast out of general society for delving too deeply in disturbing research, and utterly determined to show them all? If that is indeed the case, I think they should have access to a lot of mundane science as well as the crazy-evil stuff. Start with tracking the movements of galactic bodies before you try to summon a cosmic horror from 4th inner ring of a black hole.

On that note, some specific ideas of mine:

Make their magical ability scale with their mental attributes, (If that's not done already.) just like physical combat prowess scales with physical attributes.

A "Scribe's Workshop", consumes various combinations of resources and creates a "documentation tools" item, to be used in research buildings. I'm thinking combinations like "paper, feather and ink", "slab and a chisel", etc. Another possible use would be the making of these materials themselves, out of more arcane raw materials. Like converting a barrel of blood into "crimson ink", making a few ink-pens out of a single bone and harvesting vermin remains to stretch into paper.

Some kind of mental-skills trainer building like an academy or something, I know the dwarves already have something similar in the announcement podium. But warlocks don't care about safety or morality; so maybe in addition to the standard small boost reaction, give them a much cheaper "hands-on experience" reaction with a much larger pay-off that might accidentally kill the student or summon something nasty. (Maybe 10% chance of something bad, 1% chance of something very bad?)

An "Observatory" building, used to map out "star-chart" items for use elsewhere. Reactions should take a long time to complete and require documentation supplies. If possible, It should probably be an outside-only building since it's kinda hard to watch the stars when there's a ceiling in the way. Low chance of randomly learning a spell in the process.

A "Void Gate" building, powered by stable warpstone that consumes star-charts and generates a set number of random objects, depending on the number and quality of star-charts used. Could also be used to summon otherworldly monsters, either friendly or hostile. Moderate chance of learning a spell in the process.

Access to the dwarven biology lab, with added reactions to consume a corpse and documentation tools to produce an "anatomy map". Low chance of learning a spell in the process.

An "Augmentation Lab", powered by stable warpstone that consumes anatomy maps to either fuse multiple corpses together into undead multi-limbed "abomination" pets or to improve existing undead pets into abominations. Moderate chance of learning a new spell in the process.

A "Theology College", where warlocks go to ponder the nature of divine and demonic beings, and how to better harvest such natures for themselves. Consumes featherwood or glumprong logs and documentation tools, 50% of producing a "Theory of the Divine" or a "Theory of the Damned" respectively. Low chance of learning a new spell in the process.

An "Ascension Gate", powered by either candy, twice as much orichalcum, or three times as much mithril that consumes Divine Theories to transform the one performing the reaction into a super-being capable of several months' worth of fighting ultra-powerful enemies before their bodies are ripped apart from the strain. 50% of working normally, 40% of doing nothing, 10% of the reactor instead getting cursed for their blasphemies. (Were-curse or vampirism would be funny, a plague would do nicely too.) High chance of learning a new spell in the process.

An "Eerie Gate" powered by either candy, twice as much orichalcum, or three times as much mithril that consumes Damned Theories and generates a random number of randomly dispositioned demons. Could do either nothing, summon a dozen pet imps, one very angry balor, or even a mixture of the two with a demonic-civil war on your hands. 50% of killing the reactor, regardless of outcome. High chance of learning a new spell in the process.
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Meph

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Collecting Ideas
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2013, 12:38:10 am »

Keep them coming.

Please excuse if I dont go into detail on every reply, but I like most of the things I read. I can already see great libraries, a out-side-only workshops (thats possible with dfhack, yay), creep-spread that gives buffs/nerfs, and Aether Summoning Workshops of different tiers. Warlocks probably power a lot of things with bones or souls from killed enemies.
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udsuna

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Collecting Ideas
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2013, 04:04:39 am »

Why keep it as normal at all?


Provide them "pets" of a sort similar to the animated weapons the dorfs get to play with. They don't mine, their magically animated pickaxes do that. Same with woodcutters. So on and so forth.

No migrants at all.

These two things greatly change the nature of the game- but that just makes it more FUN!- as it stands, the alternate embark species are too similar to dwarves to really make it feel like a different game.



Later on (after achieving various goals) they can have their trade reactions to recruit additional warlocks (research unlocks which require sacrificing souls and what have you to upgrade your tower's magical status.


For example, you start by building a Locus- a building that spawns Lesser Essence for producing low end tools and undead. All it requires is stone and a warlock, of course. I'd almost suggest making it a "multipart" building. Where there's four corners that are meant to be assembled together in order to "look right"- so it can be a larger building that is impressive looking, while being usable by more than one warlock at a time.


Using the essence, and more typical workshops, you can create refined materials for higher end buildings.


Say, building a Grand Library in order to unlock the research material.


Undead Chrysalis for invasion mechanics and spawning undead pets for your fort (anywhere from 5 to 20 used per reaction- different difficulties and possible rewards based upon what you invade- increasingly low returns for higher level invasions, but much higher possible supplies).

Slave Pits from captured slave "items".


The Transmogrifycation Chamber- a building that uses slaves, undead, and essence to produce various abominations that may or may not be used to make new buildings.


Torture chambers that grant you access to race-specific invasion buildings that offer better chances and rewards (but require a large number of captives to build).


But for a goodly couple years, they should be limited solely to their embark units. You'd basically end up controlling them by assigning them as leaders of military units, and most of the minions as following pets.


Slave collection would be the bulk of their long term industry. "Slave driver" as a skill that most of their workshops exploit. Perhaps break it up by species. Human slaving, Dwarf slaving, Goblin Slaving and so on.


Undead minions would mostly exist to do hauling labors and kill invaders. Start with basic corpses and have an increasing upgrade of horrors to unleash.


See if it's not possible to get different corpses based on mode of death. Would be interesting to see a drowned corpse or a charred corpse to turn into different breeds of zombie.



I can see industries as follows:


1- Locus- Centerpoint of warlock life. Spawns Lesser Essence. Which is used in almost every lower reaction Warlocks perform.

2- Crafting Building- used for low end stone and wood reactions (plus needs essence). Warlocks can have a distinctly lacking number of reactions- because later they'll have the good stuff from slaves. Produces "glamored" items.

3- Enchanting Room- uses various ranks of essence to generate various grade magic items and/or pets.

4- Echo Chamber- low end magical training room. Eats essence, produces the vast majority of early magical advancement.

5- The War Room- which spawns items for various degrees of raiding (a-la the expedition outfitter) and its sister building(s). Options such as "Invade (race) outlands"- low risk, low reward, offers very good chance of coming back with 'meat' supplies like pets and children or peasants of a race. "Invade (race) hamlet" for more moderate risk-reward. Town. City. Fortress. Capital.

6- And the necromancy chamber. Researching the dark arts and spawning off lesser undead. Except to feed it lots of corpses.


Then you get medium tier stuff.

1- Heartstone. THIS lets you start attempting to recruit "potentials". Possible evil wizards to join your army. Also more commonly used for Greater Essence (cornerstone of higher end production). Again with the 'four corner' idea.

2- The Black Spiral (hehe, WoD reference, feel free to change the name)- a BIG building which requires bones, corpses, essence, and a handful of crysalis- the potentials will be fed into this reaction. If all goes well, a new Warlock shall be added to the fold. Far more likely, you either get a Crazed Wizard that you must kill. Or a corpse. Or an Abomination Soul (for high end crafting).

3- Torture Rack- either high end T1, or low T2- this baby is for interrogating prisoners. Reactions include-
A: Interrogate. Has a number of results- including civilization notes, getting the prisoner back with no results, getting a dead prisoner (with or without notes), getting a prisoner revolt- and a fight on your hands, have guards nearby- or getting a useless prisoner and notes.
B: Enslave. Favored reaction for soldier enemies. Spawns you a slave to do your dirty work. Generally not the best way to go, but they can always be butchered in the future if you need the corpse for another project. Waste not, want not. Slave is based upon type of slave used, and a lot of luck.
C: Convert. A specific and rare reaction that ONLY occurs with nobles. Gives your warlocks dastardly things to do like forcing beautiful princesses to marry them. Always a classic.

4- (Race) War rooms. As said on the tin. Lower odds of minion loss. Somewhat better item rewards. Also unlocks the possibility of finding "potentials" during an invasion, and bringing them home with you (see the Spiral and its possibilities)

5- (Race) Slave (Workshop)s- dwarven smithies. Kobold crafters. Human farming. List goes on and on.

6- Start of the magic system "for realsies". Animated tools (lesser animating using Essence- the greater kind... greater animating using souls). Soul harvesting from the necromancer chain. Possibly acquiring the weaker demon familiars (imps and homonculi) who ever so kindly cast lesser spells and offer temp stat boosts to their allies.


High Tier materials

1- Summoner's Chamber- THIS is proof that your wizard tower is now respected amongst the evil community. A big room, this time only one. Used for demon magic(s). Offering souls as reactions. Recruiting warlocks without the possible risks- though a higher price.

2- Fully upgraded torture mechanic- requiring a huge number of sacrificed captives to potentially acquire, you get the "Detailed Notes" on a given target (and each civ has those aforementioned notes)... letting you take those notes and an item from the prior chamber and generate an even superior set of invasion options.

Adds the "target trade route" option. Which guarantees lots of material loot and better-than-average captives.

If you have extra notes of a specific target around, you can initiate the "decisive blow" command. A high power invasion which expends dozens of minions and guarantees the triggering of an invasion- potentially multiple invasions simultaneously- but results in huge amounts of loot.

3- Fully unlocked magic systems. Necromancy. Demon Summoning. Infusions to create demonic hybrids.



Slaves-

You can acquire different types of prisoners from different locations, but there's many potential types. These are *items* to be consumed in other reactions. Each race has their own equivalents.

1- Child- most common in the outland raiding, progressively less likely as you get more urban. Safest, but least valuable, reaction. Used to spawn ankle-biter zombies and skeletons. Also possibly butcher for small amounts of meat and bone.

2- Peasant- found everywhere, though mostly human and dwarf. Good for base tier undead, butchury, and etc.

3- Sniveling peasant- found amongst kobolds and goblins and some humans and dwarves. THESE slaves are less likely to fight back when undergoing reactions where they don't die. They also mostly suck and are rather a waste to keep around for long.

4- Warriors- soldiers of varying descriptions- found amongst every race. Great potential rewards in terms of somewhat superior undead and minions. High risk of fighting back when used to generate servants, but best reward in terms of minion strength on success.

5- Tradesmen- necessary to produce most of the slave workshops.

6- Mystics- The wizards and shaman of enemy races. Dangerous in any reaction. Easily sold to demons for high value rewards. IF you convert them, they become warlocks.

7- Traitor- A rare find. Automatically gives you "Notes" and "Useless Traitor" when interrogated. THEN can be used in other reactions- either feed it in as a Potential or a Servant, depending upon luck from the reaction (as they're traitors, their interrogation is a lot less painful than normal, so they aren't left broken afterward. ALSO a favored sacrifice to the demons. Seriously. Traitors are like Cocaine to them.

8- Powerful Warrior- Different classes based on race, but all in all, the best you can get for bolstering your armies. Make the best slaves (and thus some of the best undeadification picks). Makes the best sacrifices. AND makes the best interrogations. Also, in all cases, the best odds of prison breaks.

9- Royalty. ONLY possible from a 'decisive blow'. Ranging from mayors to kings. Includes fun things like trying to convert a princess into a Dark Queen, or a prince into a Black Knight. 'Ransom' reactions.

10- "Useless prisoner"- a possible result from the Interrogation reaction(s). These prisoners can't be used to interrogate any longer. Also- if used in other reactions, they produce inferior results (identical to the "sniveling peasant"- which makes them perfect for that reaction. Best used as food. Also a fairly likely result from raiding.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 06:12:30 am by udsuna »
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somebears

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Collecting Ideas
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2013, 05:16:27 am »

Provide them "pets" of a sort similar to the animated weapons the dorfs get to play with. They don't mine, their magically animated pickaxes do that. Same with woodcutters. So on and so forth.

I think that would rather be a wizard civ. A warlock would rather slaughter some petty villagers and force them to work in his mines until they are completely rotten and fall apart. If they dont fall apart they are slaves. forever.

No migrants at all.
I think there should be migrants. Not warlocks of course, but a few undead minions, some restless souls and maybe one apprentice.

See if it's not possible to get different corpses based on mode of death. Would be interesting to see a drowned corpse or a charred corpse to turn into different breeds of zombie.
This has to be the greatest Idea ever! I can already see my army of burning undead setting the surface ablaze. It would make towers have a unique flavor(like frost, poison or fire) that sticks (if you have a lot of fire zombies it is likely that invaders are killed by fire)
Also this would allow us to do stuff other than 'select x in building y'


About slaves: I think they should not do heavy work like mining. They could be used to make food(who wants to eat a cake made by a rotting corpse anyway?), tend the crops and animals. (make undead really bad at those jobs)
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IndigoFenix

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Collecting Ideas
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2013, 06:21:02 am »

I just realized... if it's just warlocks that will be using them, and if warlocks are automatically the enemies of everyone else, you can easily make friendly ghosts by just leaving out the USAGE_HINT for warlock spells and making the ghost interactions unable to target warlocks (or only able to target warlocks).

So let's see... healer ghosts, ghosts that suck the breath out of enemies, slimers that cover everything in toxic goo (which warlocks are immune to)... I wonder if making a copy of the material emission interaction that can't target warlocks would let you make ghosts that only use material emissions on enemies... like firebreathing or web shooting ghosts...

Actually, if you just have warlocks learning spells during their life and those spells don't have a USAGE_HINT, they should keep on using them in death.  You don't need USAGE_HINT:ATTACK when warlocks will just attack anything that isn't a warlock anyway.    Something to keep in mind...

udsuna

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Collecting Ideas
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2013, 07:36:10 am »

I think that would rather be a wizard civ. A warlock would rather slaughter some petty villagers and force them to work in his mines until they are completely rotten and fall apart. If they dont fall apart they are slaves. forever.

Well. Presumably warlocks started out learning SOME magic before going all psychotic.


I think there should be migrants. Not warlocks of course, but a few undead minions, some restless souls and maybe one apprentice.

Hmm. Okay, I can see this working.

This has to be the greatest Idea ever! I can already see my army of burning undead setting the surface ablaze. It would make towers have a unique flavor(like frost, poison or fire) that sticks (if you have a lot of fire zombies it is likely that invaders are killed by fire)

I'm planning on a swarm of drowned dead. Just one of my preferred death trap options.


About slaves: I think they should not do heavy work like mining. They could be used to make food(who wants to eat a cake made by a rotting corpse anyway?), tend the crops and animals. (make undead really bad at those jobs)

There's a thought. I rather like my "magic tools" theory, however. It'd make the construction aspects of a warlock fort a very different animal from the usual. Not that I think warlocks should be "diggers" at all. Tower building, that's where it's at.
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AshFire

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Collecting Ideas
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2013, 07:36:51 am »

I'll just describe an embark of Warlocks as I see it:

You start with a few Acolytes, younger Warlocks that just begun to learn dark paths and decided to raise the Tower of their own.
Acolytes are suited only for war. They can kill and create undeads, that is all. Each time you kill a being you recieve a soul gem, which power depends on the strength of this soul's deceased owner. So by murdering some rabbits and combining their weakest soul gems with some bones you rise your first skeletons. They are your unqualified workers, mining and farming around, building simple structures and being totally brainless.
Now back to Warlocks. To be able to create really powerful items, cast cool magic and raise mighty creatures you need to assign your Warlocks to what-used-to-be Noble positions. But now they are different: one Noble unlocks one profession and one title only for one Warlock making him ArchWarlock - until his death. Thus your Tower will look like a board of very narrow and powerful specialists united by their magic researches and their apprenticies, some king of magical univercity.
Possible examples of ArchWarlocks: DemonMaster (trades soul gems for temporary HFS allies), DeathMaster (by combining soul gems, prescious metals and valuable gems at special workshops can raise more powerful creaters than skeletons, like bone dragons from megabeast's soul and HUGE number of bones), PoisonMaster (potions), TowerMaster (architect of dooms day devices), WaveMaster (crafts magical cloth for robes from souls and whatever) and so on.
Loosing a skeleton is no problem, loosing an Acolyte is OK, but the death of ArchWarlock is a tragedy since he was your only specialist in his field. But there is always a couple of power-hungry Acolytes waiting for someone to die so they can take his place... Or may be one of your ArchWarlocks will run into human siege by pure accident when a more talanted candidate for his position appears...
Warlocks have lowered birth rate and a few migration waves. I don't really think they need slaves or conversion - who can rely on meatbags when you can totally trust your cute zombie? They are not cobolds to loose their time on such things. And only Warlock by birth can be true magician, they are a race after all.
But why should you build a Tower? That's simple. Your ArchWarlocks are gifted, but capricious. They demand something all the time (although the bad mood recieved for unfulfilled wish is lowered) and envy each other since they are all equal in status. And never let an Acolyte have a better room than any of your Tower's rulers!
So playing Warlocks is about killing things (your economy can never have enough bones and souls and there are a lot of sieges because everyone hates you), nurcing your powerful specialists (each of them is unique) and trying to have them all happy.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 07:45:01 am by AshFire »
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AshFire

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Collecting Ideas
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2013, 08:08:53 am »

Probably zombies and skeletons should be even more brainless. They do not need any sleep or food, but they can only do one task they were created for.
For example, by fullfilling job "Create Skeleton Farmer" at some kind of boneyard workshop your Warlock raises Skeleton Farmer from 1 soul gem and 10 bones. He can only farm and will do so until he is dead, there is no way to stop him or change his task. He even can't improve his skill: his abilities are determined at the moment of his creation by the level of his master-Warlock.
So the Warlock with "Farming" skill can't actually farm, but he can create farming skeletons (that can farm but can't upgrade their skill) and gain experience in this profession by recearching and writing books (and after that he can make better skeleton farmers).
You can butcher this Skeleton (which is your pet in terms of the game) at any time and have some resouces back.
So you will nead to regulate the number of your Skeletons for any task (like woodcutting, mining and farming) carefully and upgrade your workers when they are out of date when your Warlocks improve their skills.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 08:16:03 am by AshFire »
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Meph

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Collecting Ideas
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2013, 12:14:03 pm »

IndigoFenix: They are not opposed to life, they dont attack everything. They are like dwarven vampires, normal civ members, which happen to be ignored by undead. I dont even know if I can make Warlocks hostile to everyone. Its usually only BABYSNATCHER that does that, so probably it will be dwarves, elves and humans that attack, and orcs, goblins and frost giants that come trading.

Ghosts will also be a danger with the normal ghost stuff like scaring people to death and severing limbs, dont forget that. ;)

@Many of the above suggestions: Sadly a lot of the things are impossible to do with modding, like corpses that get abilities depending on how they died, or the tools that do labors... Only civ members can do labor. And all civ members are a single creature, and use a single graphic spritesheet. They will all look at least similar.

Captured invaders can not be used in reactions either... but killing them and using their corpses should be fine.
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mahrgell

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Collecting Ideas
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2013, 12:36:19 pm »

If you make them unable to talk, they will become hostile to everyone as well... But that may mess up other stuff ;) Luckily they don't need diplomats anyway, but it will also cripple their social skills and not sure about standard tasks connected to this ability

Meph

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Collecting Ideas
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2013, 01:00:07 pm »

It will especially mess up their names. No ones will have names, no towns, areas, artefacts, nothing with names... I cant do that.
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