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[heydude6]

My take on the matter is this: Mafia was a game originally invented in a soviet psychology experiment as an abstract way of testing an informed minority's ability to sew misinformation and control a narrative. The result showed that they are very capable of doing this, and stuff like our fake news crisis is more proof of this fact.

Mafia is a game that's meant to expose the vulnerability of uncoordinated groups to bad actors. It's meant to make you uncomfortable since you're supposed to connect the tactics used in the game to tactics used in the real world. Such as when oil companies fund climate-denial propaganda. Their goal isn't to convince everyone that global-warming doesn't exist, their goal is simply to sow enough confusion to slow progress on the transition to renewable resources. If the group never unites behind a cause, then the oil companies win.

As for the term lynch itself, the lynches in mafia were never racially motivated. The term was chosen because that's how mobs tend to deal with their problems. All sorts of people would get lynched. Whether it be alleged witches, opposing families in a blood feud, or even suspected criminals. Lynching is just what happens when a mob is convinced that someone is guilty, and they decide to bypass legitimate authorities.

It's meant to be ugly. The connotation is supposed to be negative. Just like in real life, people in mafia are executed based on relatively flimsy evidence. Lots of innocent people got lynched. There were probably more mislynches in real life than there are in the sum total of all mafia games. What you're doing by censoring the term is denying the inherent brutality of the concept and erasing some of the social commentary of the game. Can you imagine making a World War 2 film where the nazi's didn't act like... well Nazis, because you were afraid of offending the Jewish audience? Because that's what you're proposing to do here.

What I'm seeing here is a well-intentioned, but misguided attempt by white people to be more racially sensitive. I know you're trying, but a lot of these efforts end up backfiring and hurting the minority even more. You should always tread carefully when making an assumption about what's good for a minority without consulting them yourself.

[Caz]

I don't see the point in removing the violent words from mafia. Whether it's 'lynching' or 'telling the character to go home' and 'killing' or 'removing from the game' doesn't really matter except to make the flavour more boring. Is there anyone actually offended by the violent words used in mafia??? You'd think people would have better things to complain about.

[notquitethere]

notquitethere: Any chance of an ending to Puzzle Temple Panic?

Very long overdue, for which I can only apologise, but here we go. I have ended Puzzle Temple Mafia (after four and a half year long night). Congrats, you won!

[webadict]

I don't think anyone here is offended by the term lynch when used within Mafia. But that doesn't mean that the term isn't problematic. I lose literally nothing by changing the term to something else.

I dunno, it seems like a win-win to me. I like it.

[Vector]

I'd like to clarify that I'm not advocating for a particular change, because I don't have a dog in this race (uh . . . I'm not someone who could possibly be targeted or personally offended by that language). I mentioned it because I can't stop thinking about it.

Been stalking MU games or just generally aware of the larger mafia community zeitgeist?

Just started reading some stuff on MU.

It's perhaps an appropriate word for anti-werewolf medieval styled games, but not all games.

Yeah, Ex Cathedra was a . . . very . . . very . . . very violently flavored game.

This is a pretty great post.

[heydude6]

I think when it's a "witch/werewolf"-style game, hanging/lynching is literally the action. When it's a different setting, probably best to stick with the setting.

This is a compromise I can agree with.

[Vector]

I don't see the point in removing the violent words from mafia. Whether it's 'lynching' or 'telling the character to go home' and 'killing' or 'removing from the game' doesn't really matter except to make the flavour more boring. Is there anyone actually offended by the violent words used in mafia??? You'd think people would have better things to complain about.

To be clear, I have a friend whose girlfriend is a Black woman, and she (the girlfriend) started having nightmares about being lynched after last summer. This woman is not a delicate snowflake, heh. So I started thinking about that in the context of this game.

I don't know that anyone is actually concretely offended by the violent terms used in Mafia (no one's actually made a request here to change them), but I've been thinking about it because I was worried it was something where we were possibly losing players over simple word choice.

Like, uh . . . ok, if the verb was "gang-rape," I would not be playing this game with you guys. Even if Mafia is awesome and my favorite thing forever and ever goodbye. There are some terms of violence to which people have really visceral reactions, not because of the intrinsic violence, but because of the "vector" of the violence.

Anyway . . . we've probably more or less exhausted this topic. I feel like I'm talking in circles. Sorry guys.

I think when it's a "witch/werewolf"-style game, hanging/lynching is literally the action. When it's a different setting, probably best to stick with the setting.

This is a compromise I can agree with.

Cool, this sounds plenty reasonable to me. If we get other feedback then we can discuss at that time, but it seems like a good way to make more space for discussion while not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Persus13]

Yeah, I'm not opposed to communities who dislike using lynch in the game, but I don't feel strongly that the word needs to be eliminated. If there's any sign that's its a barrier for entry for folks I'll be happy to get rid of it. Its a term that can have very unsavory connotations and I think that's something to be considerate of.

I don't see the point in removing the violent words from mafia. Whether it's 'lynching' or 'telling the character to go home' and 'killing' or 'removing from the game' doesn't really matter except to make the flavour more boring. Is there anyone actually offended by the violent words used in mafia??? You'd think people would have better things to complain about.

With lynching, the issue is less that its a violent term, and more the implication that the use of it is a good, albeit crude solution to a problem. And for people who may have in the past been considered a "problem" that needed a crude solution, that can be an issue.

[Mephansteras]

I don't see the point in removing the violent words from mafia. Whether it's 'lynching' or 'telling the character to go home' and 'killing' or 'removing from the game' doesn't really matter except to make the flavour more boring. Is there anyone actually offended by the violent words used in mafia??? You'd think people would have better things to complain about.

Oh, right, you're Scottish, aren't you?

It's more of an American thing. Lynching in the US has a long history of being done specifically against black people, especially by racist mobs. So it has very racist overtones to an American audience that it probably doesn't to anyone else.

I agree that if it's not specifically bothering anyone here I don't see a reason to avoid it outright. But being sensitive to stuff like that can be useful. After all, we have no idea how many people might see the word and just nope out without ever telling us that they might have been interested otherwise.

[Caz]

With lynching, the issue is less that its a violent term, and more the implication that the use of it is a good, albeit crude solution to a problem. And for people who may have in the past been considered a "problem" that needed a crude solution, that can be an issue.

...Isn't it? Without lynching, town has no weapon basically.

I don't see the point in removing the violent words from mafia. Whether it's 'lynching' or 'telling the character to go home' and 'killing' or 'removing from the game' doesn't really matter except to make the flavour more boring. Is there anyone actually offended by the violent words used in mafia??? You'd think people would have better things to complain about.

Oh, right, you're Scottish, aren't you?

It's more of an American thing. Lynching in the US has a long history of being done specifically against black people, especially by racist mobs. So it has very racist overtones to an American audience that it probably doesn't to anyone else.

I agree that if it's not specifically bothering anyone here I don't see a reason to avoid it outright. But being sensitive to stuff like that can be useful. After all, we have no idea how many people might see the word and just nope out without ever telling us that they might have been interested otherwise.

Huh, thanks for the context. I guess we can changing lynching to banishing instead if it's really upsetting people.

[Persus13]

With lynching, the issue is less that its a violent term, and more the implication that the use of it is a good, albeit crude solution to a problem. And for people who may have in the past been considered a "problem" that needed a crude solution, that can be an issue.

...Isn't it? Without lynching, town has no weapon basically.

It absolutely is a good thing, in the game. Its the main tool the "normal/good" faction has. But when lynching in real life has connotations with being a racist weapon against black people, as Meph explained, that can be a barrier of entry for folks who primarily associate it with that.

[Caz]

With lynching, the issue is less that its a violent term, and more the implication that the use of it is a good, albeit crude solution to a problem. And for people who may have in the past been considered a "problem" that needed a crude solution, that can be an issue.

...Isn't it? Without lynching, town has no weapon basically.

It absolutely is a good thing, in the game. Its the main tool the "normal/good" faction has. But when lynching in real life has connotations with being a racist weapon against black people, as Meph explained, that can be a barrier of entry for folks who primarily associate it with that.

Come on, anyone who thinks executing people in real life is a moron. I don't think changing a word in a game will fix that.

[Mephansteras]

I should note it's not the violence in the word that's problematic (at least for the US). Execute is just as violent without having any of the racist overtones. If someone hates violence in general they probably won't like mafia, I agree. The word 'lynch' just has a lot of overtones to it. Which all make sense for the history of the game and, really, the general flavor of the game.

I don't think we need to ban the word or anything. But it makes sense to at least be cognizant of potential issues with it.

[Persus13]

Thanks Meph for articulating this better than me.

[Secretdorf]

The world's population is increasing, why isn't number of players on this subforum? Also, why has it decreased in the last decade?