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Author Topic: WH40K discussion thread: from Tyran's heart I stab at thee.  (Read 965252 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Damned Immateriums, how do they work?
« Reply #1050 on: June 01, 2015, 06:30:06 pm »

Can you explain that one for me, LW? I've been trying to find it but I can't.
Well for starters, few Legions were as on the fence on joining the loyalists or heretics as the Dark Angels. The other Legions had their spehss mahreens all follow their primarch into chaos or the imperium, with few betraying their primarch (and living). When Lion John Lennon returned to his home planet from terra however, he found that his most trusted general/friend/father and the garrison had converted to chaos. Cue the destruction of Caliban and Lennon going missing. Interestingly however, there were dark angels working on Caliban with the watchers when the garrison was defecting, working to keep the garrison from gaining awareness that the Horus Heresy was going on. There were loyalists in the midst of traitors.
It gets more interesting when you consider at just what lengths the Dark Angels went to concealing what went down in Caliban. Even going so far as to kill inquisitors and space marines that stand to uncover their past...
Undoubtedly, many of the fallen are chaos heretics. Spindly noodle chaos mutations should attest to that. The Dark Angels themselves however, seem to have a particular zealousness in hunting down the fallen that makes them seem pretty heretical already (what with attacking imperial forces and all) without anyone having to hear what the fallen have to say about the dark angels. Why would the watchers in the dark keep Lion El Johnson's location secret, unless the dark angels cannot be trusted to not put a sword through his skull? Maybe they're just xenos dickheads. Nevertheless, there is also the issue of how the dark angels and their successor chapters are still operating in secret under a unified hierarchy with the chapters themselves beyond codex astartes regulated sizes. Which would make them a "definitely not legion guys."
Seriously though, making astartes disappear does not a loyalist make

nenjin

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Damned Immateriums, how do they work?
« Reply #1051 on: June 01, 2015, 06:57:51 pm »

Quote
Interestingly however, there were dark angels working on Caliban with the watchers when the garrison was defecting, working to keep the garrison from gaining awareness that the Horus Heresy was going on.

And when the Dark Angels caught up to these guys centuries later, they branded them as Fallen all the same.

Quote
The Dark Angels themselves however, seem to have a particular zealousness in hunting down the fallen that makes them seem pretty heretical already (what with attacking imperial forces and all) without anyone having to hear what the fallen have to say about the dark angels.

It comes down to this: no loyalist chapter is "known" to have divided loyalties. Sure, a handful of marines might have been part of the Lodges at some point, a couple might have even turned to Chaos. But the remnant on Caliban was not insignificant. If it were common knowledge that big a part of the Dark Angels became traitors, the whole Chapter's reputation would suffer. That's the basis for the Hunt, anyways. As the centuries have gone on, and the Dark Angels have gotten even more paranoid, the lengths they're willing to go to, to keep the Fallen a secret from their own people even, has bordered on heretical. Or at the very least, when push comes to shove, the Dark Angels put the honor and sanctity of the Chapter's good name above most other things. Perhaps even the Emperor, if it came down to it.

It's also worth mentioning that, before and during the Heresy, the Lion did not engender a lot trust from people. That the Dark Angels could have been traitors in some capacity wouldn't just hurt the Dark Angel's name, it would cast aspersions on the Lion as well, confirming in the minds of some what they already believed about him, that his secrets concealed something dark. In the pure/impure fanaticism of the 41st Millennium, the widely known revelation would be enough to condemn the entire chapter in the eyes of some Inquisitors.

Quote
Why would the watchers in the dark keep Lion El Johnson's location secret, unless the dark angels cannot be trusted to not put a sword through his skull? Maybe they're just xenos dickheads.

In truth, the Watchers in the Dark have always struck me as a tease. A subversive curio. Back in the day when they were fleshing out Chapter histories, I think they needed something occult and mysterious to go along with the Dark Angels theme, and so they ended up with little robed dudes being part of some big secret they never tell you about. Other than, you know, the secret of their relationship to the Lion.

Come the HH novels, you learn that something slept underneath Caliban that was somehow related to the Watchers.

My theory these days is that the sickness at the heart of Caliban got into Lion El'Jonson during his upbringing there, buried deeply but there none the less. After the destruction of Caliban, the remainder of this thing inside Lion El'Jonson is all that's left. And so the Watchers in the Dark keep him on ice, keeping an eye on it just like they did when it infested Caliban.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 07:49:15 pm by nenjin »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Damned Immateriums, how do they work?
« Reply #1052 on: June 01, 2015, 09:34:33 pm »

I love how one sentence has thrown you all into multiple pages of neurotic mathematically extrapolated demands that the warp failure rate is impossible, even with me specifically caveating all the way that 40K runs off gratuitous grimdark and you can't take these things seriously.
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nenjin

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Damned Immateriums, how do they work?
« Reply #1053 on: June 01, 2015, 10:05:11 pm »

I love how one sentence has thrown you all into multiple pages of neurotic mathematically extrapolated demands that the warp failure rate is impossible, even with me specifically caveating all the way that 40K runs off gratuitous grimdark and you can't take these things seriously.

Canon is SRSBSNS.
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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Damned Immateriums, how do they work?
« Reply #1054 on: June 01, 2015, 10:16:41 pm »

Ah, right, the official data with no source that you pulled out of thin air. 40% in a particular subsector I could understand, but galaxy-wide there's no way in hell that's anywhere even close to accurate. Even if the universe runs on gratuitous grimdark the numbers just don't work, with a large error margin as well.
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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Damned Immateriums, how do they work?
« Reply #1055 on: June 01, 2015, 10:27:21 pm »

There's a lot of canon out there, man. I'm lucky to remember details at all, much less exactly which section and version of 40K some Geedubs intern scribbled them in.
Even if the universe runs on gratuitous grimdark the numbers just don't work, with a large error margin as well.
I don't think you're quite picking up what I'm putting down here.
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Bohandas

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Damned Immateriums, how do they work?
« Reply #1056 on: June 01, 2015, 11:04:46 pm »

Ah, right, the official data with no source that you pulled out of thin air. 40% in a particular subsector I could understand, but galaxy-wide there's no way in hell that's anywhere even close to accurate. Even if the universe runs on gratuitous grimdark the numbers just don't work, with a large error margin as well.

It could be averaged over an extremely long time that includes the era when Slaanesh was forming
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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Damned Immateriums, how do they work?
« Reply #1057 on: June 01, 2015, 11:13:49 pm »

I get irritated when people try to put numbers to things when the numbers aren't consistent with neither logic 'nor the data.

Bohandas: I'm not familiar with that era. Please explain.
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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Damned Immateriums, how do they work?
« Reply #1058 on: June 01, 2015, 11:19:52 pm »

I get irritated when people try to put numbers to things when the numbers aren't consistent with neither logic 'nor the data.

Bohandas: I'm not familiar with that era. Please explain.

In the years leading up to Slaanesh's birth there was an increase in warp turbulence. It made shipping more difficult and contributed to the death of the old human civilization.
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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Damned Immateriums, how do they work?
« Reply #1059 on: June 01, 2015, 11:28:53 pm »

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It made shipping more difficult

And the rage of fanfic writers everywhere fed the thirsting Chaos gods. That's totally canon.
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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Damned Immateriums, how do they work?
« Reply #1060 on: June 02, 2015, 12:44:39 am »

I don't think you're quite picking up what I'm putting down here.
There's no 'It's grimdark, let's move on' even in this universe. Even the whole 'Babymaker space marines' things that the Iron warriors did had some sort of logic behind it.

The era when Slaanesh was forming
Please explain.
Age of Strife. Before/During slaanesh's birth, basically warp storms everywhere and safe warp travel was more or less impossible.
That's why the old human civilization fell apart.
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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Damned Immateriums, how do they work?
« Reply #1061 on: June 02, 2015, 01:09:19 am »

I don't think you're quite picking up what I'm putting down here.
There's no 'It's grimdark, let's move on' even in this universe. Even the whole 'Babymaker space marines' things that the Iron warriors did had some sort of logic behind it.
There very clearly is. 40k is not realistic. The way people act towards "realism" and "plausibility" regarding a fictional universe which was created on the basis of gratuitousness is nothing more than an expression of rationalization which is a fucking plague on our relationship to media. It is the same closed-minded train of though that forced us into the gunmetal grey your choices matter era of gaming. Virtually every element of 40k is impossible, including the ones that you can't just explain away with warp bullshit. God forbid we ever abandon the sacred realism of Warhammer, what with its 500 billion strong hive worlds that have zero self-sufficiency and are supposedly living off other planets entirely covered with soybeans. With an interstellar empire that is by and large a reversal of most trends used by historical empires. With the idea that the Imperium can go around and vacuum up billions of psykers and take them all back to Terra for processing.

Do you want me to delve back into first and second editions and show you what lies there, at the thematic heart of 40k before Geedubs realized they had a hit on their hands and scrambled to be all edge and no fantasy? With the half-Eldar Astartes? With Inquisitor Obi-wan Sherlock Clousseau?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 01:11:56 am by MetalSlimeHunt »
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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Damned Immateriums, how do they work?
« Reply #1062 on: June 02, 2015, 02:02:07 am »

And yet, as long as you have not given any source to back up your claim, the only way we have to evaluate the thruthfullnes of said claim is by examining its bare contents with logic and reason. What else can we do? Just blindly believe what a random dude on the internet claims? For all we know you pulled that number out your nether regions just to stirr things up.

Secondly, nobody claims we should have 100% realism in fiction, especially not wh40k. But a setting staying internally consistent is important, to me at least. And what you claim is at odds with what other sources claim.

Finally, yes, please do delve up some funny things from days bygone. When do you think you could get around to that?
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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Damned Immateriums, how do they work?
« Reply #1063 on: June 02, 2015, 03:44:44 am »

It's the internal consistency that I worry about.

Also, yeah, we (or at least I) would love to see some of the older crap.
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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Damned Immateriums, how do they work?
« Reply #1064 on: June 02, 2015, 03:46:37 am »

Internal consistency concern thirded. We either have everything old as shit or absurd amounts of ships and cargo lost during warp transit - no third option.
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