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[MetalSlimeHunt]

I want to 40k have authors who are capable of telling storytelling with depth and exploration of themes instead of a cloud of Axe bodyspray and transplanted racism, yes.

[Rolan7]

Ookay, I guess they could try to both-sides fascism.  Let's call that plan Z?

It's weird, I've always seen WH40K as a cartoon making fun of fascism.  It's not really subtle?  The eagles, the cult of personality/worship of a lie, the embrace of death/heroism... the freakin death korps?  The intolerance of mutants, the special police hunting down anyone who goes against the imperial creed?

And the above is portrayed 100% evil, even on the battlefields, unless you take extremely narrow snapshots of what's going on.  I guess the Emperor is morally complicated, but the Ecclesiarchy has completely abandoned everything he stood for and is just evil.

Anything that portrays life in the Imperium outside of directly smiting daemons shows the injustice, intolerance, and general *suckiness* of life under fascism.  It's gone from amusing to strange to kinda worrisome that people don't immediately see that.  But I think that's because most casual "fans" only really look at the glorious battles.  Even fascists should look at the Imperium and think "It wouldn't be that bad!", not "It doesn't look so bad."

[nenjin]

I want to 40k have authors who are capable of telling storytelling with depth and exploration of themes instead of a cloud of Axe bodyspray and transplanted racism, yes.

I'm ok with stories that deal with the fascist nature of the Imperium. But if you're looking for a 40k story where some character goes "Hey, you know what? The Imperium is sexist and racist, and we should stop it!" I think you're barking up the wrong tree for reasons that don't actually have to do with the setting. Because the setting is what it is. Aliens by and large want to wreck humanity, and yes, that means there's outright spe·cies·ism in the setting.

But I feel like in this day and age, even IF GWS did what you're asking, eventually we'd end up with "intolerance toward daemons is fascist and sexist." The literal definition of evil.

It's gone from amusing to strange to kinda worrisome that people don't immediately see that.

The point of the setting was always "the Imperium sucks and everything else is even worse."

[Egan_BW]

You know, I haven't seen anything to indicate that the imperium as of 40k is sexist. Besides space marines being all men, which is a thing that the emperor decided and nobody else has the power to engineer around. All of the other heavily-armed imperial factions seem to have roughly equal numbers of men and women in all roles.

Which isn't to say anything about the presence of authoritarianism and hatred for space elves, of course. Just, I think that justifying no FSM by "imperium is sexist" doesn't have any evidence behind it other than the lack of FSM.

[nenjin]

Women exist at pretty much every other level in the Imperium at all levels of authority. Space Marines are the exception, but because they're the poster child for the franchise....sexist.

I've always appreciated that 40k isn't sexualized pretty much at all.

[Trekkin]

It's weird, I've always seen WH40K as a cartoon making fun of fascism.  It's not really subtle?  The eagles, the cult of personality/worship of a lie, the embrace of death/heroism... the freakin death korps?  The intolerance of mutants, the special police hunting down anyone who goes against the imperial creed?

Sure, but that's Poe's Law for you. If fascists can't conceive of fascism as anything but the One True Way, they're going to take the propaganda as read, pausing only to note that all the ruthlessness is clearly necessary and therefore not evil.

Remember, too, that codices kind of need to plug their armies in fluff, or at least make them cool. For the Imperial factions, that means making fascism cool.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I'm ok with stories that deal with the fascist nature of the Imperium. But if you're looking for a 40k story where some character goes "Hey, you know what? The Imperium is sexist and racist, and we should stop it!" I think you're barking up the wrong tree for reasons that don't actually have to do with the setting. Because the setting is what it is. Aliens by and large want to wreck humanity, and yes, that means there's outright spe·cies·ism in the setting.

But I feel like in this day and age, even IF GWS did what you're asking, eventually we'd end up with "intolerance toward daemons is fascist and sexist." The literal definition of evil."

That's not what I want. Refer to my previous example - it's alright not to have FSM because the Imperium is a sexist hellhole, but only if you're honest in that portrayal instead of making a neat little Lore Knot to dodge the question. Because it's the questions that create depth and it's the questions that fash fans don't want portrayed, because what they want is an uncritical transplant of Nazi propaganda since it's harder to get away with enjoying something that's got a swastika on it than an Aquila.

Similar themes would be the Imperium's role in and desire for permanent genocidal hostility between aliens and humanity even though it is demonstrably unnecessary, or the fact that daemons only even exist as a reflection of mortal cruelty.

A good example is the Imperium's role in humanity's survival. The Imperium simultaneously has protected humanity from existential threats and also ensured humanity's extinction, and that right there is something that you need an A+ author to even begin portraying in a digestible form.

[nenjin]

Similar themes would be the Imperium's role in and desire for permanent genocidal hostility between aliens and humanity even though it is demonstrably unnecessary, or the fact that daemons only even exist as a reflection of mortal cruelty.

Both of which have been done, and in levels beyond this statement.

A good example is the Imperium's role in humanity's survival. The Imperium simultaneously has protected humanity from existential threats and also ensured humanity's extinction, and that right there is something that you need an A+ author to even begin portraying in a digestible form.

Covered, in the Horus Heresy and elsewhere. You can't read a 40k novel without getting the message that the thing that is saving you is also slowly killing you. It's writ large over the entire setting. I'm not going to say 40k authors are amazing, but I have read an absolute shit load of their work. The authorial intent of the setting is pretty much in all books on this front. In most 40k novels, no one cheerleads fascism. They do what they have to do to survive while getting a good look around them at what the Imperium has done to the human race.

[Digital Hellhound]

In other news, I'm trying painting again after... seven years? I have no idea, but it's been a long while. Had a lot of unpainted models ready and base coated, so I sacrificed a few LOTR Rangers of Gondor and a Guardsman to my paints. The Ranger's not 40k but let's say he's a Feral Worlder Guardsman.

I was never good as a kid and still have poor color sense, unsteady hands and colorblindness... but I'm still enjoying this a lot.

Spoiler: Pics (click to show/hide)

I swear they look better in the flesh, haha. The Ranger's cloak is this really vibrant caramel color. He needs a better paint job on the front side though. The details pop out on the Guardsman too. Oh well.

I found that just painting made me imagine the Guardsman's regiment and backstory and what the colors mean. The regiment's colors are sky blue and white, as they come from a world where they live in archaotech plateaus over the clouds, or something. The various skulls and whatnot are gold for the glory of the Emperor. The gear on the belt and the rifle are not regimental issue; thus they're in not in regimental colors, but mass-produced brown. The bayonet and knife are streaked with white for camo in the snowy conditions the regiment's fighting in (but the blue flak is not, so, uh, go figure). The boots are flaked with white to represent snow spatters - though elsewhere it's just my unsteady brush hand, lol.

I'm gonna paint more of my Guard dudes in these colors. I have a metal one with what I think is a melta waiting, so this fellow will have a comrade sometime soon.

[Kot]

The real reason FSM upsets the fash is that it increases the depth of 40k

That's not what I want. Refer to my previous example - it's alright not to have FSM because the Imperium is a sexist hellhole, but only if you're honest in that portrayal instead of making a neat little Lore Knot to dodge the question. Because it's the questions that create depth and it's the questions that fash fans don't want portrayed, because what they want is an uncritical transplant of Nazi propaganda since it's harder to get away with enjoying something that's got a swastika on it than an Aquila.

As an evil upset frothing-at-the-mouth fash I would like to say I think FSM actually lower the depth of 40k, what with making actually unique organization of Adepta Sororitas way less, well, unique, and also would make Marines less unique, I guess. Unless one is a person who violently screams about females being 1:1 the same as males, I don't see how that would be a good thing. Heck, the push for having FSM would be sexist because by forcing females into an exclusively male organization which has very similar, if not identical in many respects, goals that a exclusively female organization(Adepta Sororitas in this case) also has, you are essentially saying that the female organization is not good enough. In other words, that'd be like saying women should be like men because men are better.

Similar themes would be the Imperium's role in and desire for permanent genocidal hostility between aliens and humanity even though it is demonstrably unnecessary,

Imperium often trades with and somewhat supports alien races that pose no immediate threat because they simply do not have resources to go and kill everyone on their borders. Xenos that aren't an organization separate from Imperium are usually not kill-on-sight in Imperium proper even, though there is very much deeply ingrained speciesism, which mainly comes from the fact for longest time humanity was on the receiving end of the "die Alien scum" stick, with communities that actually worked together being rare and in-between. The desire to genocide otherwise peaceful races comes from the Imperial "Manifest Destiny" feeling of ownership and responsibility for entire Galaxy, and that desire is demonstrably necessary, since to survive and emerge victorious against not only Chaos, but also Tyranids and other races that are very much more hostile and genocidal, Imperium would need all the resources it can get.

or the fact that daemons only even exist as a reflection of mortal cruelty.

Daemons and other apparitions of evil existed way before humanity ever got off Earth, and we have to thank War in Heaven, Fall of Eldar and other similar fun times for that. Does humanity have a hand in Warp continuing to be shit? Yeah probably. Did humanity have a choice to make Warp not be shit? Not really, unless you count one of Horus Heresy alternative outcomes where Horus (somehow) kills absolutely every living being in Galaxy as a viable choice.

A good example is the Imperium's role in humanity's survival. The Imperium simultaneously has protected humanity from existential threats and also ensured humanity's extinction, and that right there is something that you need an A+ author to even begin portraying in a digestible form.

The Imperium has protected humanity from existential threats that would have made it extinct long ago, and the "ensured" part is arguable, both in-universe and outside of it. Having a very minimal chance is way better than no chance at all.

It's weird, I've always seen WH40K as a cartoon making fun of fascism.  It's not really subtle?  The eagles, the cult of personality/worship of a lie, the embrace of death/heroism... the freakin death korps?  The intolerance of mutants, the special police hunting down anyone who goes against the imperial creed?

The problem here is that WH40k is way more complex than that. Eagles were a symbol of, well, hope, the worship might be the only thing stopping the whole thing from collapsing, hunting down of mutants is not because they're different, it's because they're in fact, Chaotically tainted and basically a given that the Chaotic part would cause severe problems - better example of racism would be abhumans like Ogryns (or Ratlings or so on), who are different due to non-Chaotic reasons, and thus they are accepted in Imperial society, THOUGH that's where the real racism kicks in, since people dislike them for being big and dumb. Death Korps didn't ask to be like this, and them being like this can be traced back to when actual fascists decided to show a middle finger to Imperium. Also, as a tangent, above examples aren't even really just "fascist", they're very much present in other forms of governments, though mostly autocratic, just like Death Korps aren't a play on Nazis, they're a play on how fucking shit WW1 was, on all sides.

And the above is portrayed 100% evil, even on the battlefields,

Heroism and embrace of death is not inherently evil?

unless you take extremely narrow snapshots of what's going on.  I guess the Emperor is morally complicated, but the Ecclesiarchy has completely abandoned everything he stood for and is just evil.

Ecclesiarchy isn't "fascist" even, they're church with nearly absolute power, with all the bad and good portions of it, even if the bad ones outweight the good, and the good are about never shown in most WH40k media - Ecclesiarchy runs hospitals, schools (including Schola Progenium (which you can argue are evil, but people who leave them usually end up pretty well for themselves, which is way better than dying on the street as an infant)), heck, Adepta Sororitas Militant Orders are just a fraction of the whole organization, which includes medics, scribes, advisors and essentially fucking diplomats.

Anything that portrays life in the Imperium outside of directly smiting daemons shows the injustice, intolerance, and general *suckiness* of life under fascism.  It's gone from amusing to strange to kinda worrisome that people don't immediately see that.  But I think that's because most casual "fans" only really look at the glorious battles.  Even fascists should look at the Imperium and think "It wouldn't be that bad!", not "It doesn't look so bad."

Most casual "fans" only really look at Imperium and see "Space Nazis". Setting aside the argument about if it is really "fascism" or not (it's not, but I presume the word is just used as a stand-in), the injustice, intolerance and *suckiness* is just the most commonly shown side (because, it's, well, not mundane), you'd have to look deeper to find positive parts, which is very rarely done. The biggest problem is that Imperium has long ago moved away from being purely grimderp where everything was shit so it could drive a point home. It's much more complex since people realized a society that's just evil, has some logistic problems when it comes to how it functions. This isn't to say that Imperium is somehow now excused of everything evil, and is actually a purely positive force (though still maintaining that Imperium is good, since it's the only meaningful faction that promises more than death/tentacle rape/slavery for humans), but I believe looking at it and seeing a purely negative force is pretty much as naive as looking at it and thinking it portrays and promotes "fascism" as a positive thing.

Remember, too, that codices kind of need to plug their armies in fluff, or at least make them cool. For the Imperial factions, that means making fascism cool.

Just making humanity look cool is apparently passe, what with everyone finding Blueberry flavored "fascism" somehow more positive than regular "fascism".

[Trekkin]

As an evil upset frothing-at-the-mouth fash I would like to say I think FSM actually lower the depth of 40k, what with making actually unique organization of Adepta Sororitas way less, well, unique, and also would make Marines less unique, I guess. Unless one is a person who violently screams about females being 1:1 the same as males, I don't see how that would be a good thing. Heck, the push for having FSM would be sexist because by forcing females into an exclusively male organization which has very similar, if not identical in many respects, goals that a exclusively female organization(Adepta Sororitas in this case) also has, you are essentially saying that the female organization is not good enough. In other words, that'd be like saying women should be like men because men are better.

Well, when the reason the Adepta Sororitas is female is explicitly because the Ecclesiarchy couldn't recruit a male army after the Decree Passive, then yes, that isn't good enough.

Then again, I also don't want female Space Marines. Nor do I want male Space Marines, any more than I want male bolters. It seems silly to me to emphasize on one hand how inhuman Space Marines are by dint of being kids crammed full of weird organs and trained/mutated into living weapons aloof from humanity and yet simultaneously insist they're dudes in any meaningful way. What do we lose by letting the biological components of the glorified weapons servitors have multiple X chromosomes?

[nenjin]

It seems silly to me to emphasize on one hand how inhuman Space Marines are by dint of being kids crammed full of weird organs and trained/mutated into living weapons aloof from humanity and yet simultaneously insist they're dudes in any meaningful way.

Reference Kot's statement above. If you're taking the position that men and women are 1:1, then yes, there's no reason. In the real world we have things like hormones though.

[Rolan7]

But Kot's statement had nothing to do with biological differences between gender, he was arguing that it would make SM and FSM less "unique".

The real reason FSM upsets the fash is that it increases the depth of 40k

That's not what I want. Refer to my previous example - it's alright not to have FSM because the Imperium is a sexist hellhole, but only if you're honest in that portrayal instead of making a neat little Lore Knot to dodge the question. Because it's the questions that create depth and it's the questions that fash fans don't want portrayed, because what they want is an uncritical transplant of Nazi propaganda since it's harder to get away with enjoying something that's got a swastika on it than an Aquila.

As an evil upset frothing-at-the-mouth fash I would like to say I think FSM actually lower the depth of 40k, what with making actually unique organization of Adepta Sororitas way less, well, unique, and also would make Marines less unique, I guess.

It removes one of the differences between the two factions, sure.  But it's probably the most superficial difference, of many differences. 

A man who underwent Sororitas training would not be a space marine.  He'd be shorter for one thing   Aside from the implants and gene-editing, which is a lot, he'd be trained entirely differently.  He'd be a member of the Ecclesiarchy.  He'd probably sing a lot and favor flame weapons. 

My point is that the gender split is not what makes the two factions unique.  It's unnecessary.  I get why they stick with the choice (they retcon things all the time, but this would require some sort of actual plot advancement) but it's just a relic of a sillier time.

Unless one is a person who violently screams about females being 1:1 the same as males, I don't see how that would be a good thing. Heck, the push for having FSM would be sexist because by forcing females into an exclusively male organization which has very similar, if not identical in many respects, goals that a exclusively female organization(Adepta Sororitas in this case) also has, you are essentially saying that the female organization is not good enough. In other words, that'd be like saying women should be like men because men are better.

wellThatEscalatedQuickly.gif
Sorry, I just found that pretty insulting and absurd

I also disagree entirely.  There are countless meaningful differences between the genetically modified shock troops and the Church's flame-obsessed footsoldiers.  They both technically wear power armor (though completely differently) and both revere the Emprah (again, completely differently), and that's... it.  The Ecclesiarchy even has loads of male soldiers, they just don't strap into the boob-armor!

I'm not demanding or expecting them to make a change, I understand why they won't.  All we're saying is:  If they did, it would not diminish the depth of the setting.  I say it would increase it, by distancing their creations from just "monks and nuns".  Isn't that an insulting oversimplification of what they've created, here?

[ArchAIngel]

But Kot's statement had nothing to do with biological differences between gender, he was arguing that it would make SM and FSM less "unique".

The real reason FSM upsets the fash is that it increases the depth of 40k

That's not what I want. Refer to my previous example - it's alright not to have FSM because the Imperium is a sexist hellhole, but only if you're honest in that portrayal instead of making a neat little Lore Knot to dodge the question. Because it's the questions that create depth and it's the questions that fash fans don't want portrayed, because what they want is an uncritical transplant of Nazi propaganda since it's harder to get away with enjoying something that's got a swastika on it than an Aquila.

As an evil upset frothing-at-the-mouth fash I would like to say I think FSM actually lower the depth of 40k, what with making actually unique organization of Adepta Sororitas way less, well, unique, and also would make Marines less unique, I guess.

It removes one of the differences between the two factions, sure.  But it's probably the most superficial difference, of many differences. 

A man who underwent Sororitas training would not be a space marine.  He'd be shorter for one thing   Aside from the implants and gene-editing, which is a lot, he'd be trained entirely differently.  He'd be a member of the Ecclesiarchy.  He'd probably sing a lot and favor flame weapons. 

My point is that the gender split is not what makes the two factions unique.  It's unnecessary.  I get why they stick with the choice (they retcon things all the time, but this would require some sort of actual plot advancement) but it's just a relic of a sillier time.

Unless one is a person who violently screams about females being 1:1 the same as males, I don't see how that would be a good thing. Heck, the push for having FSM would be sexist because by forcing females into an exclusively male organization which has very similar, if not identical in many respects, goals that a exclusively female organization(Adepta Sororitas in this case) also has, you are essentially saying that the female organization is not good enough. In other words, that'd be like saying women should be like men because men are better.

wellThatEscalatedQuickly.gif
Sorry, I just found that pretty insulting and absurd

I also disagree entirely.  There are countless meaningful differences between the genetically modified shock troops and the Church's flame-obsessed footsoldiers.  They both technically wear power armor (though completely differently) and both revere the Emprah (again, completely differently), and that's... it.  The Ecclesiarchy even has loads of male soldiers, they just don't strap into the boob-armor!

I'm not demanding or expecting them to make a change, I understand why they won't.  All we're saying is:  If they did, it would not diminish the depth of the setting.  I say it would increase it, by distancing their creations from just "monks and nuns".  Isn't that an insulting oversimplification of what they've created, here?

Okay, just to note: The Ecclesiarchy does NOT have male soldiers, there was a WAR over that. Decree Passive, means NO MEN UNDER ARMS FOR THE CHURCH.


Now, can they arm twist IG into coming along through faith? Yes. But the CHURCH does not have male soldiers. It's a Big Deal.

[Rolan7]

Huh yeah true.  I was thinking of their confessors and missionaries from Soulstorm, and priests in general.  I thought they were lightly armed, but maybe not?