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[Nerjin]

I will certainly not calm down! Your argument is a waste of time! PLEASE TRY HARDER! You have done NOTHING but harp on the same stupid argument since you started talking! We've told you that it sucks. TRY. HARDER.

I am tired of you wasting our time! ADD SOMETHING RELEVANT! READS! GOD DAMN VOTE ANALYSIS! I DON'T CARE JUST. DO. SOMETHING!

[IronyOwl]

TolyK:

Irony, more or less.

Why?


Cheeetar:

Here's a strange thought: TolyK has claimed investigator- without his investigative skills, Toaster locking down the whole town is useless. Why was Toaster targeted with the kill and not TolyK?

It's generally unwise to attempt to read much into nightkills. They're very complex affairs utilizing variables we're unaware of, and therefore difficult to figure out.

That said, the obvious answer is that they're less concerned about TolyK hitting them than they are about Toaster suppressing them. Less obvious answers include pretty much anything.

[TolyK]

MBP, nobody will buy your case, how ever hard you try, so I'd really suggest dropping it.
If you're right, you get a massive "I told you so!" right.

Irony, to get as much info out of the night game as possible. Also to keep people who are continuously lying (typically the bad guys) on their toes.

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

I CANNOT wait for that I told you so. It makes me giddy in all the right places.

[IronyOwl]

TolyK:

Irony, to get as much info out of the night game as possible. Also to keep people who are continuously lying (typically the bad guys) on their toes.

And you don't feel screaming EVERYONE TELL ME WHAT YOU DID RIGHT NOW off a sliver-thin chance that ended up yielding nothing was in any way problematic?

Tell me, why should we leave you unblocked tonight? You're nowhere near confirmed, you were one of three people unblocked the night somebody murdered Toaster, one of which was Toaster while the other's a Miller, and aside from Toaster you've got no inspect information you couldn't have guessed. Add to that you've been shifty and misleading in general, and I'm forced to really wonder how wise it is to leave you running around.


MBP:

I CANNOT wait for that I told you so. It makes me giddy in all the right places.

If you knew it all along but nobody believed you, that generally means you were either complete crap at communicating this information, or your information was bad and so you were right on pure luck. Either way, it's not generally something to be proud of.

Either way, you should really be scumhunting right now. Do you have any suspects at all? Any reads? Any lines of pursuit? Any idea what you'd do if Tiruin and Toaster suddenly keeled over?

[Tiruin]

I CANNOT wait for that I told you so. It makes me giddy in all the right places.

While you may have merit in playing WEB's games in the last 3 years; your experience with it...comes from about 3 years ago.

Many things have changed--philosophy, thinking and many other 'common' ideas that I bet are swimming in your head there.

Do you find it efficient for yourself to change your ideas in the situation currently? Like, be more open-minded?

Or don't you see any merit in us telling and commenting on what your case is?

It may be an unblockable neutral as well. Just because they are aligned against what looks to be a survivor role doesn't mean they are aligned against us.

If they are not explicitely Town, then they are not to be trusted. Again, nothing prevents them to betray town if it's not in their wincon, and they should do whats best for themselves. Altruism is not something that happens in Mafia

As for you Jack

Giving a complete such a power to a townie while giving Scum a way to bypass is kind of a sucking gift. ''you can sue this but it'll totally suck for everyone but scum'' kind. It's ratehr hard for me to put it in word, it's like a Kaizo trap.

You seem to not believe in Player Principle, huh.
Tell me, do you think people are chained by their alignment or roles or do they still have a choice in doing what they may do with their alignment?
Like an SK 'working with the town' in aiming to kill scum, with the underlying idea of Vigilante (though that is not the SK's intent). Does that scenario seem even possible for you?

What is your basis for 'no altruism in Mafia'? Is there anything recently on this board that reinforces that?

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Toaster being dead i'd be okay with since i already said i was wary of him getting tons of powers with his scavenge, but mostly since he's confirmed third party.
Tiruin depends on the flip. Again, i've got a huge gut feeling she's scum, or anything actively detrimental. If she ends up town well, thats gonna be a major mistake. Still sure of myself tho, we'll see eventually.

Nerjin somehow blew a fuse starting today, dunno why. I've got a pang that he wants to look as usefull as possible. Furthermore, he did protect confirmed 3rd party, (he could be scum with some really weird shit happening, but that's not likely). Toaster dying and rev-ing

As for more, I posted the votes for the lynches, and i suspect at least 1 people there is scum. Still unsure, frankly. In any case, I'm a bit pressed for time ( trying to get a new job right now, and college started), but i'll try writing something comprehensive when able.Extend just in case i'm gone more than 2 days.

Tiruin
My case as been explained like 6 times already. Understand it or don't believe it or don't, at this point i won't be aresed for a 7th iteration of the same arguments.
As for Player principle, whatever that means, i do believe that you should play your role. If i'm a Townie cop and i reveal the doc's and other good roles from town, you can bet the other townies game will be fucked. If i'm Mafia and i give the other scum name, i'm ruinign everyone's game.
It may not be as blatant, but when you play, but SK is not a town ally. Sure he can help lynch scum, but it's becasue they are also hunting for him, not to help town. Hell, the best situation for him is to go down to 1 scum then just double murder his way to the end.
Nothing recently i know off, since i've been gone for years. But nothing new came about that i know of that makes it okay to not play your role. So yeah, no altruism.

[Tiruin]

Also, MBP, could you get back in the thread and evaluate TolyK's Inspect of Toaster and Nerjin's Pardon?

What was your read on those two, given that you judge mainly by powers.

[...]So yeah, no altruism.

You should look in the recent BYOR games (or ToonyMan's Love-Themed Mafia)...there are lots of cases where the principles of a player [also altruism] came before their role (ever heard of an SK not even using his kill? That happened while you were gone, and the SK still won ).

[Tiruin]

Also yes, I get repetition, however I'd like a direct answer so our perceptions won't be skewed one way or another in interpretation.

I CANNOT wait for that I told you so. It makes me giddy in all the right places.

While you may have merit in playing WEB's games in the last 3 years; your experience with it...comes from about 3 years ago.

Many things have changed--philosophy, thinking and many other 'common' ideas that I bet are swimming in your head there.

Do you find it efficient for yourself to change your ideas in the situation currently? Like, be more open-minded?

Or don't you see any merit in us telling and commenting on what your case is?

I'd still like an answer here for the orange part :3

[Cheeetar]

MysteriousBluePuppet: You've had exactly one argument, and you're clinging to it desperately no matter how many times it's been shown that the reason you're voting is invalid and cannot be defended against. I want to see you scumhunt on somebody who isn't Tiruin (and with something they can actually answer to.)

TolyK: Thank you for confirming Jack A T as town. Why didn't you wait until everybody had claimed their night actions before revealing your brilliant plan? Neither Jack A T or Scripten had said anything about what they did that night.

Spoiler: Nerjin (click to show/hide)

I'm noticing that Cheetar seems to hang towards the easy lynches. He was on all of them and I'm relatively certain he expressed concern over someone else on Day 3 other than Toaster and Varee... I dunno. His reasoning seems a bit weak but I won't have time to really dig into this until tomorrow.

But for now I'm going to say Cheetar.

I would've been voting for Toaster were it not for your pardon, Nerjin. Varee was someone I already thought as scummy - I'd voted him earlier in the day (as the first person to do so) before the current plan (Toaster freezing everyone but TolyK) had been hatched. I'm not sure how you view Flabort as an easy lynch, seeing as I was the one who started the whole bandwagon against him.

If you think I've been bandwagoning, point to the instances in which I voted with poor/lazy reasoning on somebody who had votes on them. You can't say I'm scum just because the (very) scummy people I've voted for have unluckily turned out to be town.

[TolyK]

TolyK:

Irony, to get as much info out of the night game as possible. Also to keep people who are continuously lying (typically the bad guys) on their toes.

And you don't feel screaming EVERYONE TELL ME WHAT YOU DID RIGHT NOW off a sliver-thin chance that ended up yielding nothing was in any way problematic?

No, I didn't think that was problematic. My reasoning?
- Technically, all people except me, Toaster and Tiruin should've been blocked, so unblocked people not in the list who didn't claim would look instantly scummy on the off chance that I saw where they went last night.
- I specifically asked people what they did/tried to do last night (specifically, who they targeted).
I did not ask for any more than that - individual role claims, however partial, are not what I wanted.

Tell me, why should we leave you unblocked tonight? You're nowhere near confirmed, you were one of three people unblocked the night somebody murdered Toaster, one of which was Toaster while the other's a Miller, and aside from Toaster you've got no inspect information you couldn't have guessed. Add to that you've been shifty and misleading in general, and I'm forced to really wonder how wise it is to leave you running around.

- Actually, others claimed to have been able to action this night that were not unblocked... At least two, if I remember.
- I have a one-shot kill, which was confirmed by Varee before his death, which bypasses revives.
Actually, lynching me would confirm a lot, but if you plan to do that definitely (i.e. everyone agrees) then I'll spill all the beans.

[Jack A T]

Delaying full evaluation another day, sorry.  Need to get some sleep first.

As for you Jack

Giving a complete such a power to a townie while giving Scum a way to bypass is kind of a sucking gift. ''you can sue this but it'll totally suck for everyone but scum'' kind. It's ratehr hard for me to put it in word, it's like a Kaizo trap.

MBP: Alright.  Is a read based on action powers seemingly not fitting alignment really a good read in a game where the theme is power shifting?  In a game where powers are moving from player to player through multiple mechanisms?

TheWetSheep: In addition to my issues with your predecessor, I have issues with your play.  Specifically, your TolyK vote.  Even for a newcomer to a very long game, this is light on content.  There isn't a case, and the questions consist of a rhetorical question and a clarification request.  Your next few questions to TolyK are a bit better, but you're barely there on him.  Considering you've only really looked at TolyK today, there's an issue here.

What is your case on TolyK?

Jack, how exactly does your ability-move ability work?

TolyK: I target two players.  First target has to choose a power to lose, but doesn't know where it is going.  Second target gets the selected power, but doesn't know where it came from.

[Tiruin]

TolyK:

Irony, to get as much info out of the night game as possible. Also to keep people who are continuously lying (typically the bad guys) on their toes.

And you don't feel screaming EVERYONE TELL ME WHAT YOU DID RIGHT NOW off a sliver-thin chance that ended up yielding nothing was in any way problematic?

No, I didn't think that was problematic. My reasoning?
- Technically, all people except me, Toaster and Tiruin should've been blocked, so unblocked people not in the list who didn't claim would look instantly scummy on the off chance that I saw where they went last night.
- I specifically asked people what they did/tried to do last night (specifically, who they targeted).
I did not ask for any more than that - individual role claims, however partial, are not what I wanted.

But you didn't talk about your stance regarding a massclaim :I
...In my memory.
...
You didn't talk about your stance regarding a massclaim in my memory. :I [We were talking about that as a real possibility come D4]

[TolyK]

Thanks for the clarification, Jack.
Tiruin, I think I did, but it was a wait-and-see one. Anyways, I asked only about N3.

[Cheeetar]

Yo, TolyK.

TolyK: Thank you for confirming Jack A T as town. Why didn't you wait until everybody had claimed their night actions before revealing your brilliant plan? Neither Jack A T or Scripten had said anything about what they did that night.