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[freeformschooler]

... no? We don't. At least I've never seen anyone say that's suddenly okay behavior. Sticking them with child support, sure (and that goes both ways), but not marriage.

Yeah. Basically this.

[GavJ]

Child support does technically go both ways, but it is still sex-skewed, due to yet ANOTHER right that women have that men don't, which is a assumption by the courts of women as primary caregivers (given equal legal resources and de facto caregiving).

Thus, when custody is in dispute, women almost always win custody, so fathers are almost always the ones paying child support, and as a subset of that, almost always the ones on the receiving end of being "stuck with" child support unjustly (whatever % of child support is unjust, it will run higher in the group who pays child support more often overall)

Which is why people pretty much always talk about child support in general, as well as "tv show" horror scenarios, as happening to men, because they do.

[Neonivek]

... no? We don't. At least I've never seen anyone say that's suddenly okay behavior. Sticking them with child support, sure (and that goes both ways), but not marriage.

Yeah. Basically this.

You don't call it marriage you call it "Take responsibility" and that responsibility sure isn't cash.

Fathers who don't care for their children are considered bad people. Watch some daytime television

Mind you I consider that more a property of people's overprotectiveness of children then a true double standard. There is this idea that if the father doesn't marry the mother and take care of the child, that the child will someone be raised wrong and that the father is a lazy terrible person for not being a father.

Then again the perception is that a Father who doesn't step up to be a father is forcing the full weight of motherhood onto the mother.

[Frumple]

... mothers that don't take care of their children are considered bad people, too.

It's just. Look. There is no scenario involving coercing or tricking another person into marriage that isn't going to end with social approbation. It doesn't exist.

And yeah, taking responsibility generally involves more than cash, but that definitely doesn't extend all the way to marriage. Or, again, it hasn't in every single case I've personally ran into involving the subject. Daytime television's kiiinda' BS.

Child support does technically go both ways, but it is still sex-skewed, due to yet ANOTHER right that women have that men don't, which is a assumption by the courts of women as primary caregivers (given equal legal resources and de facto caregiving).

Thus, when custody is in dispute, women almost always win custody, so fathers are almost always the ones paying child support, and as a subset of that, almost always the ones on the receiving end of being "stuck with" child support unjustly (whatever % of child support is unjust, it will run higher in the group who pays child support more often overall)

Isn't this general spiel actually bullshit and the majority of cases where men actually pursue guardianship, they get it? Pretty sure that's what the numbers showed when it came up in one of the previous sets of discussion on this topic, though m'definitely distracted enough at the moment my memory may be failing me. Less men seek primary guardianship for whatever reason, but when they do, they're apparently more likely to get it.

I'd love to see the actual case studies/legal sections/precedent that say the mother is by default the primary caregiver, though. I know the tax code (in the states, anyway) at least, doesn't say that. E: Or at least didn't a few months ago. Guardianship re: taxes is determined entirely by fiscal support and place of residence of the dependent -- gender is pretty close to never mentioned, iirc.

[Neonivek]

There is no scenario involving coercing or tricking another person into marriage that isn't going to end with social approbation. It doesn't exist

Norbit...

In Norbit the villain using her fake baby as a way to force Norbit out of divorce was considered perfectly fine until it was revealed to be fake.

So... no your assessment is incorrect.

It is considered perfectly acceptable for women to use pregnancy as leverage against the father... so long as it is actually the father.

Also yeah Daytime TV is total BS, but it is good to get people's general opinions... and from what I understand the general opinion is "A woman got to do what a woman got to do", even though it is considered "wrong" for a woman to coerce using a baby that isn't the father's for child support, as an example, or even marriage... generally speaking she receives total sympathy over the man in this situation.

USUALLY this is because the idea is that the woman is securing aid for her child... and the man is the villain ANYWAY because he isn't supporting the child who is "innocent in all of this"

Basically what I am saying is... The woman always gets the moral highroad no matter what because people support protection of a child over the rights of the man. It is why I say this isn't EXACTLY a double standard issue.

[Reelya]

> Isn't this general spiel actually bullshit and the majority of cases where men actually pursue guardianship, they get it?

Raw numbers without analysis often don't say much about what is going on. The story is that very few men seek or get guardianship, but when they do, they're more likely to get it. Can we scale that up to say that courts are pro-men though?

There are very few cases of men seeking guardianship as opposed to women. Perhaps men only fare well in cases that tend to have evidence of flagrant child abuse from the mother, thus ensuring that the court takes them seriously. That would explain the numbers we see, but also leave room for the court to show bias to women, in general.

[GavJ]

I don't know, I've never looked at that side of the data. I'm just going off of the small minority of custody winners that are men, something like 15% I believe.

I would tend to severely doubt that a ratio as huge as 6:1 women:men even bother to pursue custody, which would be required for the odds on pursuers to be equal (let alone higher for men), but I suppose it's possible. Link? I can't find this data in quick google searches.

[freeformschooler]

Isn't this general spiel actually bullshit and the majority of cases where men actually pursue guardianship, they get it? Pretty sure that's what the numbers showed when it came up in one of the previous sets of discussion on this topic, though m'definitely distracted enough at the moment my memory may be failing me. Less men seek primary guardianship for whatever reason, but when they do, they're apparently more likely to get it.

Hmmm. I found no data on cases in which men or women specifically pursue guardianship, but here's the trend line for custody by sex from 1993-2007 (census hasn't done a recent one):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So no. On this one reelya is right. Women still overwhelmingly get custody of children during divorce with no or little change over the past ~20 years at least.

[Neonivek]

If both sides aren't trying to secure the children then there is no custody battle period.

You aren't "awarded custody" if the woman just says "Yeah I'll take the child" and the man goes "sure"

At least to my knowledge... Heck to my knowledge you don't even have to go to court during a divorce so long as you can reach an agreement.

I am looking at the percents for Canada where there was a DIRECT COURT ORDER (as in an actual Custody Battle)

Women earned sole exclusive custody 79% of the time, men got it 7% of the time.

[Reelya]

Hence why that factoid about "when men seek custody they're more likely to get it" is really meaningless. It certainly doesn't prove non-bias in the courts. Maybe men only tend to bother pushing their rights in the family courts if the mother is a drug-addict or has psychological problems that can be proven in court.

[pisskop]

ptw.

[GavJ]

But yes, it could be skewed by women overwhelmingly pursuing custody.

It would have to be FIVE TIMES (sorry, 6:1 was a math error) more women applying for custody than men (in contested cases, as mentioned). And if Frumple's claim that the "majority" of men who seek get it, then that ratio has to be even higher. For 75% success for seeking men, it would have to be TEN TIMES more women applying in order to balance out that success ratio to still end up with the 15% of men with custody at the end of the day.

That sounds absurd. I can't prove it isn't true, but claims like that require evidence, not the other way around.

And as mentioned, doesn't account for whatever % of men intimidated into not seeking, or too poor to afford a lawyer to seek, etc.

[Frumple]

It is considered perfectly acceptable for women to use pregnancy as leverage against the father... so long as it is actually the father.

If by "perfectly acceptable" you mean "will be gossiped about for the next decade in a negative light", I guess.

generally speaking she receives total sympathy over the man in this situation.

Okay, put bluntly: She wouldn't receive total sympathy. She will be talked about behind her back because of her actions, probably for years, and will almost certainly be seen as less of a person by a fair amount of the community she's involved in. Seriously, people do not just join hands and sing kumbaya when someone, male or female, is using a pregnancy as leverage against someone else. At least not regarding marriage -- child support, again, sure, but not marriage or marriage related subjects. No one comes out of one of those dustups smelling like roses, not in reality. S'bad business all around.

So no. On this one reelya is right. Women still overwhelmingly get custody of children during divorce with no or little change over the past ~20 years at least. But yes, it could be skewed by women overwhelmingly pursuing custody.

Yeah, from what I understand it's very much that last bit, or at least men overwhelmingly not pursuing custody. For whatever reason(s), men simply seek custody in considerably smaller numbers. That's not the same thing as there being an actual legal bias toward one gender or another regarding custody rights.

I mean, if there is one, there is one, but everything I've personally ran into regarding the subject has indicated the bias is very much cultural instead of legal, and very rarely actually intrudes on any legal procedures relating to the situation(s) in question. Men having the perception that they're not going to get custody without a exceptionally strong case does not make that true. Unless it is true, in which case I'd love to see the numbers

[Neonivek]

Another thing to look at is what percent of divorces are considered "The man's fault"

Via drug problems, abuse, cheating, or losing his job.

All perfectly viable ways to lose a custody battle.

---

I am trying to find a statistic that SPECIFICALLY states the percentage when BOTH PARENTS fight for the child to sort of end the debate...

But that is impossible...

I found one that says that men win custody 70% of the time "They fight for it" but that can easily include instances where the mother doesn't fight for it.

Same time... the article I got it from is... not one I'd trust.

Edit: I am right not to trust this article... I found out where the statistic comes from... A Father who seeks either SOLE or JOINT parental rights gets it 70% of the time... It also interestingly enough says women in the same situation earn it 90% of the time.

MIND YOU I should have figured something was up when I was reading an article that says it is wrong for a man to wish for alimony after a divorce. >_<

---

Honestly there is just too much written here to get through it all.. I don't know it is reputable... but here you go

http://amptoons.com/blog/2006/01/23/who-wins-custody-in-contested-divorce-cases/

This should be more trustable then the other one I found that minced words... but honestly you never know and I didn't look at it closely.

Though I THINK the direction it is going is that there is a discrepancy but not as extreme as people make it to look.

---

Though honestly I don't know what we are really arguing about...

I was mostly trying to argue that common perceptions prevent this type of law from being enacted.

[LordBucket]

According to: http://www.divorcepeers.com/stats18.htm

When disputed custody is decided during mediation
63% sole custody to mother
25% joint custody
 6% sole custody to father
 6% Other

When disputed custody is resolved by evaluation or trial
44% sole custody to mother
40% joint custody
11% sole custody to father
 5% other

Though notably, apparently only 20% of custody cases are decided by the above. The rest of the time, parents deal with it without third party involvement.