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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[Arcvasti]

Americans are humans. Like all other humans. They are neither better nor worse, fundamentally, than any other group of humans.

...

I'd say that groups of humans are differentiated from each other by their values and by their actions. America, as a group, has a set of values that it demonstrates with its actions. Groups of humans grouped by something that doesn't necessarily entail shared values and actions[EG: Race, sex, sexual orientation] are too disparate to put in the same boat. But I believe that a country CAN be better or worse then another country. Countries are arbitrary demarcations of population and can therefore be judged on the reason that they are demarcated[EG:Their laws, government and dominant culture]. So I could totally judge Americans, as a unit, for not legalizing gay marriage sooner. Each citizen is responsible for the state of affairs in the country. If I dislike the state of affairs in the country, this state of affairs exists because of the citizens of said country, so disliking the citizens of said country as a whole is therefore a reasonable position.

[wierd]

That logic is faulted, the US is not a direct democracy. It is a democratic-republic. Often, the elected state officials ignore their constituency, and act of their own volition.

See for instance, the rhetoric of many senators and congressmen concerning the NAFTA vote, and now with TPP. (It should have been clear with the popular uprising against SOPA, and PIPA, that TPP was NOT something the populace wanted. They voted for it anyway. Should ordinary Americans be held responsible?)

[redwallzyl]

Americans are humans. Like all other humans. They are neither better nor worse, fundamentally, than any other group of humans.

...

I'd say that groups of humans are differentiated from each other by their values and by their actions. America, as a group, has a set of values that it demonstrates with its actions. Groups of humans grouped by something that doesn't necessarily entail shared values and actions[EG: Race, sex, sexual orientation] are too disparate to put in the same boat. But I believe that a country CAN be better or worse then another country. Countries are arbitrary demarcations of population and can therefore be judged on the reason that they are demarcated[EG:Their laws, government and dominant culture]. So I could totally judge Americans, as a unit, for not legalizing gay marriage sooner. Each citizen is responsible for the state of affairs in the country. If I dislike the state of affairs in the country, this state of affairs exists because of the citizens of said country, so disliking the citizens of said country as a whole is therefore a reasonable position.

so I'm somehow worse then you because other people in my country have a position you see as worse then yours even if i take your "better position"?

[TD1]

No. But saying "Americans are the same as all other humans" still isn't true. Cultural and religious differences create differences between countrys, and therefore it's not strictly true to say they are "like all other humans."

[wierd]

Not seeing the forest for the trees.

While each manifestation of a human culture is unique, it still is a human culture, and has underlying characteristics that are always conserved. The propensity for shameless self promotion, the feature being discussed, is not unique, and is conserved among all human cultures.

[Loud Whispers]

They are neither better nor worse, fundamentally, than any other group of humans.

Empirical evidence points to 'fundamentally worse'

Incorrect. They are just as bad as any other group, fundamentally. They simply have access to more resources, and are therefor more influential.
(You can find the antecedent of current Amerika(tm) in the former British Empire.)

Lel you comparing the British Empire with the American Empire? No one is fundamentally the same as their fellow. Everyone is fundamentally different. Same goes with Americans, who just so happen to be fundamentally worse than 100% of the planet

[wierd]

They are neither better nor worse, fundamentally, than any other group of humans.

Empirical evidence points to 'fundamentally worse'

Incorrect. They are just as bad as any other group, fundamentally. They simply have access to more resources, and are therefor more influential.
(You can find the antecedent of current Amerika(tm) in the former British Empire.)

Lel you comparing the British Empire with the American Empire? No one is fundamentally the same as their fellow. Everyone is fundamentally different. Same goes with Americans, who just so happen to be fundamentally worse than 100% of the planet

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Simply asserting a contrary statement does not make it so.

Examples of hypernationalism, the feature being discussed, are everywhere, in every culture. The degree of that hypernationalism is always congruent with the amount of resources the culture is able to bring to bear.

This is like arguing that "not all tree branches are the same! See, that one bends 90 degrees, and that one 45!"  Nevermind that fundementally, a tree branch is still a tree branch.

Ancient rome brought the resources of the known world to bear against its later conquests before burning from within.
The British empire brought enough land under its sway that the sun literally never sat on it.
The American Empire (TM) has more military might than the rest of the world combined.

All thought that they were the epitome of civilization.

[TD1]

There are cultural traits which impact on shameless self promotion. A culture which values restraint is less likely to have individuals which self promote.

[wierd]

It can be mitigated, but never removed.  I also remind you, that a culture is not a nation.

[TD1]

Nationality and cultural identity exceedingly often go together.

And yes. It can be mitigated. So can anything. So, you can say that Americans are more prone to self promotion than X culture/nation.

[Loud Whispers]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Simply asserting a contrary statement does not make it so.

Simply asserting that the different are the same does not make it so - you are asserting the contrary.

Examples of hypernationalism, the feature being discussed, are everywhere, in every culture. The degree of that hypernationalism is always congruent with the amount of resources the culture is able to bring to bear.
This is like arguing that "not all tree branches are the same! See, that one bends 90 degrees, and that one 45!"  Nevermind that fundementally, a tree branch is still a tree branch.

Call a straight twig or a bent twig the same and you're missing that fundamentally they're not the identical; pointing out they're both from a tree is like pointing out how we're all human so we must be the same. What makes us different makes us different. Fundamental differences in culture are fundamental.

Ancient rome brought the resources of the known world to bear against its later conquests before burning from within.
The British empire brought enough land under its sway that the sun literally never sat on it.
The American Empire (TM) has more military might than the rest of the world combined.
All thought that they were the epitome of civilization.

Despite Pax Britannica being a thing, whether it was the Spanish, French, Russians, Germans or Americans - there was always at some point someone on the cusp of surpassing them. Pax Americana lasted even shorter than Pax Britannica, and provided even less of cultural worth. Only Rome was worthy.
Somehow American culture has had more pomp than its far more worthy predecessors.

[wierd]

I dunno, American corporations have mapped the human genome, have created vaccines for many of the world's systemic illnesses, INVENTED THE INTERNET (as in, the networking technology. Sir Tim Burners Lee invented hypertext, which lives on top. The internet is more than just hypertext.), and a great many other fantastical, downright science fiction sounding accomplishments.

many electronic devices were developed in the united states by US citizens, including electric motors, 3-phase AC power, the microwave oven-- even the transistor was invented here.

History often depicts past civilizations with a rosy hue.  Be wary, even the abomination that is the modern US could well get that treatment.

[Loud Whispers]

Technology =/= Culture

Also the victors write history, the USA has already lost

Also USA invented Facebook with that internet gj

[wierd]

Lost? Who's to say who the victor is, that will write such a history?

We are contemporaries of the horror. Our accounts will be chronicled, but the ones given weight in schools will be the ones most favored by the spindoctors of tomorrow.

Especially when said "Pax Americana" hasnt really "ended" yet.  (I would be hard pressed to say that a genuine "Pax" even occurred. Perhaps during the isolationist era prior to WW1 maybe-- but since? America has been in a state of constant foreign conflict ever since. the US became addicted to war.)

Then again, so was the British Empire, and the Roman empire before it.

[Bohandas]

many electronic devices were developed in the united states by US citizens, including electric motors, 3-phase AC power, the microwave oven-- even the transistor was invented here.

Don't forget radio/wireless communication, invented by Tesla (although to be fair Tesla received his education in Austria)