Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[Loud Whispers]

You know what the fucked up part is though? They're way more upset at being laughed at than people are at being beheaded. Sarcasm and absurdity are an existential terror to ideological veins that live off of being taken seriously, and religions are no exception.

All the broadcasters bowed down to their demands so I'd say they were more afraid of being beheaded than they of being laughed at

[TD1]

A lot of the spread post-Constantine was political. Suddenly, instead of being barred from public office (iirc), Christians were suddenly the only group eligible for it. So the nobility and senate flocked to the new official religion. And then status quo ensued for another thousand or so years, in all the countries born out of Rome's collapse.

Plus, it was linguistically based too. Christianity merely had the good fortune to come into prominence in a time when Alexander the Great had spread Greek culture almost as far as possible, and when Rome subsequently defeated that empire. So there were only two main languages which everyone who was anyone knew - a perfect breeding ground for a religious spread.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that if Alexander the Great hadn't done what he'd done, we probably wouldn't even have heard of Christianity. It may have only been limited to wherever Constantine managed to spread it, given language and culture barriers.

Also, yea. Constantine hoarded Christians, and his son Constantius persecuted polytheists. Christians were the only ones allowed to thrive, as it was imposed by the emperor.

[Rolan7]

Okay I'm not complaining, just confused...  How did we get to the topic of religious spread?  I'm not sure what this post is replying to:

That kind of sounds accurate throughout history. It seems that the more persecuted Christians are, the more firm the believers get and Christianity will spread stronger (but not faster) But once it's less persecuted, it spreads much faster, but not very strong if you know what I mean. I guess that when Christianity is suddenly persecuted, it will die off a large amount, but if it is suddenly "liberated" (like during Constantine) it spreads like crazy. That's just what I'm thinking.

On the subject of the study, I don't see it as saying Christians or religious people are bad.  Just that unreligious people have morals too (and that, maybe, religion can distract people from actually being good).
That may sound like a silly conclusion, but it's *very* common for religious people to question the possibility of atheist morality.  "If you don't believe in God, where does morality come from?" is one of the most asked "gotchas".  Furthermore, most Christians believe that all humans are sinful creatures who deserve punishment.  That includes all Christians, and also all atheists...  The atheists are just "unrepentant".  Stuff like this is why atheists are often lumped in with Satanists as untrustworthy and morally suspect.
And, ironically, muslims: http://www.salon.com/2014/07/21/the_numbers_are_in_america_still_distrusts_atheists_and_muslims_partner/

This generosity study, like the earlier studies on divorce rates, just show that atheists have functioning morality without religion.  We shouldn't *need* to prove that, but people still don't believe it's true.

[Telgin]

That may sound like a silly conclusion, but it's *very* common for religious people to question the possibility of atheist morality.  "If you don't believe in God, where does morality come from?" is one of the most asked "gotchas".  Furthermore, most Christians believe that all humans are sinful creatures who deserve punishment.  That includes all Christians, and also all atheists...  The atheists are just "unrepentant".  Stuff like this is why atheists are often lumped in with Satanists as untrustworthy and morally suspect.

Pretty much.  Clearly not all Christians are like that, or any other religious group, but it absolutely was and is a common belief around where I grew up.

As a kid who didn't know any better I went along with a lot of the "holier than thou" stuff that was preached.  If I found out someone was an atheist, I was first shocked, then appalled, then just accepted an attitude of "well, you're a bad person who's going to Hell and getting what you deserve."  I never said that to anyone, but I thought it a lot.

When I look back on some of the things I believed as a child, specifically because of the local flavor of Christianity, I'm both ashamed and terrified.  I believe that my personal code of morality and ethics is far better after I left that stuff behind, and it scares me that things like that are pressed onto children who will accept and repeat it like I did.

[Bohandas]

That may sound like a silly conclusion, but it's *very* common for religious people to question the possibility of atheist morality.  "If you don't believe in God, where does morality come from?" is one of the most asked "gotchas".  Furthermore, most Christians believe that all humans are sinful creatures who deserve punishment.  That includes all Christians, and also all atheists...  The atheists are just "unrepentant".  Stuff like this is why atheists are often lumped in with Satanists as untrustworthy and morally suspect.

Pretty much.  Clearly not all Christians are like that, or any other religious group, but it absolutely was and is a common belief around where I grew up.

As a kid who didn't know any better I went along with a lot of the "holier than thou" stuff that was preached.  If I found out someone was an atheist, I was first shocked, then appalled, then just accepted an attitude of "well, you're a bad person who's going to Hell and getting what you deserve."  I never said that to anyone, but I thought it a lot.

When I look back on some of the things I believed as a child, specifically because of the local flavor of Christianity, I'm both ashamed and terrified.  I believe that my personal code of morality and ethics is far better after I left that stuff behind, and it scares me that things like that are pressed onto children who will accept and repeat it like I did.

I've always found it ironic that 1 Corinthians 13:11 is the perfect metaphor for losing one's faith and becoming an atheist or agnostic.

[origamiscienceguy]

That may sound like a silly conclusion, but it's *very* common for religious people to question the possibility of atheist morality.  "If you don't believe in God, where does morality come from?" is one of the most asked "gotchas".  Furthermore, most Christians believe that all humans are sinful creatures who deserve punishment.  That includes all Christians, and also all atheists...  The atheists are just "unrepentant".  Stuff like this is why atheists are often lumped in with Satanists as untrustworthy and morally suspect.

Pretty much.  Clearly not all Christians are like that, or any other religious group, but it absolutely was and is a common belief around where I grew up.

As a kid who didn't know any better I went along with a lot of the "holier than thou" stuff that was preached.  If I found out someone was an atheist, I was first shocked, then appalled, then just accepted an attitude of "well, you're a bad person who's going to Hell and getting what you deserve."  I never said that to anyone, but I thought it a lot.

When I look back on some of the things I believed as a child, specifically because of the local flavor of Christianity, I'm both ashamed and terrified.  I believe that my personal code of morality and ethics is far better after I left that stuff behind, and it scares me that things like that are pressed onto children who will accept and repeat it like I did.

I was like this, and I still partly am. I know that instead of condemning others, I am supposed to love and share with them. The holy spirit changes the hearts, not me. It is quite difficult though. Especially when some of my personnel morals are breached, like abortion or gay marriage.

[Telgin]

I had a very long and detailed post typed up about how gay marriage is the specific thing that caused me to turn away from Christianity, but I don't want to incite flames over it.  I know it's been discussed to death, and I know that not every Christian denomination denounces it, but plenty do.

The rambling point I made, which I'll provide in brief here, is that the things I was taught as a kid turned me into a passive bully throughout my teenage years.  Three of my best friends in high school were gay.  Everyone but me knew it, but I was in denial because... well, being gay was terrible.  They weren't terrible people, so they weren't gay.  Anyway, none of them ever told me because they knew how I felt about it, and it wasn't until years after we'd all graduated and moved away that I learned the truth.

Of course, by then I didn't care one bit and had already come to the conclusion that most of the things I was taught as a kid were nonsense, but it did instill a powerful message in me.  For years and years these people interacted with me a lot, and we were friends, but they never let me know the truth.  They told other people, so they must have had a reason to not tell me.  Were they afraid to?  Did they think I'd stop being their friends if they told me?  Would I have stopped being their friends?

I don't know, but the mere thought of it scares me.  It's not that different from picking on someone for anything else outside of their control.  I never picked on anyone for anything and thought the idea was despicable, but yet... I was effectively doing just that, wasn't I?

"I can't be friends with the short kid" isn't so different from "I can't be friends with the gay kid."  Just imagine what it must feel like to be pressed into secrecy because of something like that.  If I didn't cause harm I surely didn't help.

So, that's a very large part of why I decided that my morals shouldn't be dictated by rules from the bronze age.  I've come to believe a lot more in a "live and let live" policy.  If your beliefs and actions don't hurt anyone, why should I care what you do or believe?

[TD1]

Heh. Rome had the same problem. (Sorry for the history lecture, but I've been doing a lot on them recently.) Their morality went downhill with the implementation of of Christianity. People began to see themselves as peasant and ruler, and the honour-based tradition of giving to the poor became something along the lines of "God gives to the needy, I give to you. Know your place."

[Graknorke]

That would seem to be an intrinsic problem of a religion where the literature is mostly about being persecuted, but then that same religion becomes dominant. You get a lot of people with persecution complexes who use it as an excuse to do stuff they want.

FAKE EDIT: Speak of the fucking devil. Couldn't have been timed better.

[Bohandas]

FAKE EDIT: Speak of the fucking devil. Couldn't have been timed better.

They introduce a false dichotomy at the end of that trailer. Personally I'd rather judge God.

[TD1]

One does not judge God.

Why can humans not judge their creator?

Just can't. He's right.

Why is he right?

He's God, that's why.

[Rolan7]

I just hate the constantly repeated falsehood that there's a ban on school prayer.  Students are allowed to pray, always have been.
Yes, teachers can no longer lead students in a Buddhist, Taoist, Islamic, Christian, Hindu, etc prayer.
This argument is "No, teachers should be allowed to teach their personal religious beliefs in schools!"
If these guys won, cue many teachers around the nation telling kids "Well actually, there probably isn't a God in the sense your parents say.  Next question?"
(Not really, they'd get fired soooo fast)

[Bohandas]

I have an insight in regard to the "problem of hell" that may be salient. Basically, how severe of a punishment something is can be seen as how much worse it makes a person's condition, so while being flayed alive in a pit of lava may be severe to us living in 21st century free countries it would be a comparatively much more mild worsening of conditions to someone living in ancient squalor under mosaic law.

[origamiscienceguy]

I have an insight in regard to the "problem of hell" that may be salient. Basically, how severe of a punishment something is can be seen as how much worse it makes a person's condition, so while being flayed alive in a pit of lava may be severe to us living in 21st century free countries it would be a comparatively much more mild worsening of conditions to someone living in ancient squalor under mosaic law.

In the bible, the actual punishment of hell is spending an eternity without God. You would go through the judgement, so you would witness God's full glory, then be sentenced to a life without him forever.

[TD1]

True, people in such times were treated much more harshly by the law... but for the most part, they led relatively untorturous lives. I say relatively in comparison to Hell. They may have had to work for little gain, but the brave majority did it all their lives and it's something that they thought must be done, and that had a purpose - their own survival. Hell is just punishment without rhyme or reason, or even much judicial control. And being flayed alive wasn't something typical to the normal peasant, either. Perhaps more common than nowadays, but it still wouldn't have been every other person you meet - not by a long shot.

I have an insight in regard to the "problem of hell" that may be salient. Basically, how severe of a punishment something is can be seen as how much worse it makes a person's condition, so while being flayed alive in a pit of lava may be severe to us living in 21st century free countries it would be a comparatively much more mild worsening of conditions to someone living in ancient squalor under mosaic law.

In the bible, the actual punishment of hell is spending an eternity without God. You would go through the judgement, so you would witness God's full glory, then be sentenced to a life without him forever.

The Bible seems to put it much more physically.
 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Any Biblical passages saying Hell is only separation from God?

Edit: And then a webpage gave me these...
(3) Hell is conscious torment.

Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”
(4) Hell is eternal and irreversible.

Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”