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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[Rolan7]

Welllll, cases have been made.  "Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven" and all.  It depends a lot on what one believes about God, Jesus, heaven, and hell though.  And what they believe about humanity.

But yes, it's an attractive offer.  "I did a thing which makes all your mistakes okay.  You don't have to feel guilty anymore, also I love you."  I wish I could believe in something like that.  Though even then, I'm not sure I would accept.  Letting someone else suffer for my sins doesn't altogether sit right with me.  If I can just stop existing, or live with my mistakes in a place apart from Him, that seems more fair to me.

*also*, if I were to take up the offer, I feel like I'd be fundamentally different.  Since I wouldn't be sinning in heaven... Why?  Would I be the same person, without my flaws?  Troubling idea.

Still a nice offer though.

[Fenrir]

Well, he's forgiven the elect. He hasn't forgiven the folks who don't/didn't/won't want it.

correct. I don't know why anybody who believes that wouldn't want it though.

Well, that depends on what God decides to do to you if you don’t want it. Eternal disutility? Yeah, okay, fine. Nothing happens? Depends on whether you care what God thinks of you at that point. You don’t actually need divine permission to stop feeling guilty if you don’t want to feel guilty anymore.

[Calidovi]

Since I wouldn't be sinning in heaven... Why?  Would I be the same person, without my flaws?  Troubling idea.

Reminds me of that Calvin and Hobbes strip.

[origamiscienceguy]

Welllll, cases have been made.  "Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven" and all.  It depends a lot on what one believes about God, Jesus, heaven, and hell though.  And what they believe about humanity.

But yes, it's an attractive offer.  "I did a thing which makes all your mistakes okay.  You don't have to feel guilty anymore, also I love you."  I wish I could believe in something like that.  Though even then, I'm not sure I would accept.  Letting someone else suffer for my sins doesn't altogether sit right with me.  If I can just stop existing, or live with my mistakes in a place apart from Him, that seems more fair to me.

*also*, if I were to take up the offer, I feel like I'd be fundamentally different.  Since I wouldn't be sinning in heaven... Why?  Would I be the same person, without my flaws?  Troubling idea.

Still a nice offer though.

Jesus already suffered for your sins. You can't really change that.

Once a christian is taken into heaven, they receive a new body (but they don't become angels) this new body is completely free of sin. You keep your soul when you go into heaven, but your earthly sinful nature dies with your body.

[Flying Dice]

One of the things that always made me uncomfortable about that is the absolution of responsibility. I've always felt that if you make a mistake, it's yours to own up to and your to bear. You can learn from it, become a better person because of it, &c. but you shouldn't be able to just pretend that it doesn't matter that you did something wrong as long as you acknowledge that it was wrong simply because something you believe in tells you that it's already been paid for. Sort of a counterpart to the previously mentioned thing about morality being dictated by faith; it's frightening to think that the world is full of people whose only motivation for acting morally is, by all appearances, the fact that their god told them that they should (but that they'll still be rewarded even if they behave immorally, as long as they keep believing and don't commit certain acts).

[origamiscienceguy]

One of the things that always made me uncomfortable about that is the absolution of responsibility. I've always felt that if you make a mistake, it's yours to own up to and your to bear. You can learn from it, become a better person because of it, &c. but you shouldn't be able to just pretend that it doesn't matter that you did something wrong as long as you acknowledge that it was wrong simply because something you believe in tells you that it's already been paid for. Sort of a counterpart to the previously mentioned thing about morality being dictated by faith; it's frightening to think that the world is full of people whose only motivation for acting morally is, by all appearances, the fact that their god told them that they should (but that they'll still be rewarded even if they behave immorally, as long as they keep believing and don't commit certain acts).

You are still responsible for your actions, but God has forgiven you. If you read the parable of the prodigal son, I think it makes it more clear. (Luke 15:11-32)

[Fenrir]

…this new body is completely free of sin.

Can you say what that would mean?

[origamiscienceguy]

…this new body is completely free of sin.

Can you say what that would mean?

It means that in heaven, there is no sin. There is much debate about what age/appearance people will have in heaven, but I don't think that that is imperative to know.

[Fenrir]

…this new body is completely free of sin.

Can you say what that would mean?

It means that in heaven, there is no sin. There is much debate about what age/appearance people will have in heaven, but I don't think that that is imperative to know.

No, I mean, what does it mean for a body to be “free of sin”?

[Orange Wizard]

Sin is, in effect, the compulsion to go against God. It's (metaphorically) tied to "the flesh", which is why the New Testament is full of verses about casting aside your old body and so on. None of that is literal - you can safely ignore it if you like.
A body (or soul, or whatever, the effect is the same) without sin would be like Christ. That is, one who follows the commandments perfectly (but not in the sense of "supreme authority on heaven and earth", obviously). The commandments are usually summed up as "Love the Lord your God ... and love your neighbour as yourself", although it's horrendously rare for churches to even remotely resemble that.

[Fenrir]

Sin is, in effect, the compulsion to go against God. It's (metaphorically) tied to "the flesh", which is why the New Testament is full of verses about casting aside your old body and so on. None of that is literal - you can safely ignore it if you like.

I thought origamiscienceguy is a biblical literalist, though, which would imply that’s not what they mean.

[Orange Wizard]

99% sure that's what origami means, sin being metaphorically tied to the flesh or literally tied to the flesh doesn't really make much difference either way.

[Bohandas]

this new body is completely free of sin

Wouldn't that undermine "free will"?

[Sheb]

Would it? By the time you get to heaven, you would have freely decided not to sin.

[Helgoland]

Sort of a counterpart to the previously mentioned thing about morality being dictated by faith; it's frightening to think that the world is full of people whose only motivation for acting morally is, by all appearances, the fact that their god told them that they should (but that they'll still be rewarded even if they behave immorally, as long as they keep believing and don't commit certain acts).

As far as I can tell, it really doesn't work like that: The internal enlightenment that comes with faith gives you an innate understanding of right and wrong, so that you freely choose to no longer sin. It's not compliance with some sort of legal code, but closer to being convinced by a good argument: The motivation to stop sinning comes from yourself, not from outside.