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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[Rolan7]

What I've heard is, he was jealous of humans.  I think that was the original reason - not that that was considered canonical for modern non-Catholic sects.  Not sure if it's in Catholic apocrypha or not.

Over time he's kinda become a champion for (hopeless) rebellion against an arbitrary tyrant.  A tyrant whose morals don't match human common sense.

(With most "satanists" not even believing in Satan or Jehovah, just worshiping an ideal of freedom.  Kinda confusing, I know.)

[Frumple]

*shrugs* Given the nature of the metaphysics involved, and later action recorded in the bible, the answer is most likely "God told it to." Barring that, it would be "because that's how God made it". The devils are no more or less than how god made them, and could do no more than what god allowed. You can read between the lines, really.

And last I checked, Rol, that was mostly Milton (Paradise Lost, probably doing more to confuse christian idealization of the devil than any other text written* ). (The) Satan(s) motivations are pretty much entirely untouched in the bible itself, so far as I can recall.

*The Divine Comedy would be second, ha.

[Telgin]

It doesn't seem to make sense that Satan would have ever chosen to.  Clearly he knew what the consequences of that would be since he couldn't possibly overthrow God.

So, if you try to stick to the story in the popular interpretation of it, either he's very, very unintelligent or God created him specifically to end up betraying him and getting tossed out of heaven to cause mischief for humans.

@origamiscienceguy
God could do just one more miracle, and it would count a million times more than the ones he already did.  99% of the world would be saved, free will intact.

This is a big thing that I don't understand.  I can get that God wants people to follow Him out of choice, but why even make it possible to doubt His existence?  It makes it vastly more likely that any given person will fail the tests of mortal life and end up with the ensuing punishment, whether you believe that to be eternal Hell, destruction or some kind of vacuous existence away from God or whatever.

I could imagine that if God were much more obviously real and involved with people, whatever free will exists would be maintained while you could then say that people who still did evil things genuinely deserve whatever punishment they get.  You'd have to be insane or really evil to defy an all powerful deity that tells you not to do something and who you know exists and can't possibly miss you doing something bad.

If you then say that it effectively removes free will then... sure, I agree.  But you know, you kind of have a choice: give people the ability and not unreasonable motivation to doubt your existence and punish them for it, or make it really hard for them to deny you and your rules and lose most of whatever you get out of them choosing you willingly.

[TD1]

The source is Satan. I don't know why/how he sinned at first. Does anybody have any ideas?

God created and controls the enemy, from what I can tell. Anything Satan does  is permitted by God.

[Shadowlord]

(I think I saw a request for more atheists or agnostics to post. I'm not one, but thinking God is dead (because he became the Big Bang) is somewhat close. )

When the world contains so many different religions all claiming that theirs is the One True God and that you must worship theirs to be saved in the afterlife, while also claiming that every other religion is either a lie or a predecessor to theirs... I don't really see why anyone thinking logically can conclude that one particular one is true when there is no real evidence for any of them, and even counter-evidence. E.g. The Christian bible itself contradicts (in genesis) discoveries about the birth of the universe, solar system, planets, life, and evolution, etc, proving its falseness.

[Bohandas]

What I've heard is, he was jealous of humans.  I think that was the original reason - not that that was considered canonical for modern non-Catholic sects.  Not sure if it's in Catholic apocrypha or not.

*shrugs* Given the nature of the metaphysics involved, and later action recorded in the bible, the answer is most likely "God told it to." Barring that, it would be "because that's how God made it". The devils are no more or less than how god made them, and could do no more than what god allowed. You can read between the lines, really.

And last I checked, Rol, that was mostly Milton (Paradise Lost, probably doing more to confuse christian idealization of the devil than any other text written* ). (The) Satan(s) motivations are pretty much entirely untouched in the bible itself, so far as I can recall.

I think the same concept exists in Islam as well though

[Orange Wizard]

When the world contains so many different religions all claiming that theirs is the One True God and that you must worship theirs to be saved in the afterlife, while also claiming that every other religion is either a lie or a predecessor to theirs...

I can't think of any religions claiming to be the One True Whatever other than the Abrahamic ones.

...

The Christian bible itself contradicts (in genesis) discoveries about the birth of the universe, solar system, planets, life, and evolution, etc, proving its falseness.

Not as such. God could have quite easily done everything as recorded in Genesis, but made the world to resemble one that had been around for billions of years. Although I'm not sure why he'd bother, personally.
The book was written by people who had never even heard the word "science", and anyone who isn't a literalist is willing to accept that the Bible isn't a wholly accurate historical document. There are any number of explanations for why Genesis doesn't match up with physical evidence. But that requires the Bible to be true in the first place, so YMMV.

...

I think the same concept exists in Islam as well though

To be fair, Islam is basically Judaism, but more Arabic.

[Shadowlord]

When the world contains so many different religions all claiming that theirs is the One True God and that you must worship theirs to be saved in the afterlife, while also claiming that every other religion is either a lie or a predecessor to theirs...

I can't think of any religions claiming to be the One True Whatever other than the Abrahamic ones.

Yes, I don't know enough about the other religions (such as Hinduism or Zoroastrianism) to know if they also consider themselves the only true religion, so I probably shouldn't have just assumed they did. Still, that's still three. Iirc, Islam considers Jesus a prophet rather than a savior, meaning anyone relying on Jesus would be fucked if Islam turned out to be the right religion. Same for Jews with both their derivative religions, yes? Basically all three consider the others heresies and Christians only support Israel because end-times prophecies require it to exist and stuff.

P.S. Buddhism, which doesn't have a deity, has reincarnation but if my understanding is correct, seems to say "life is suffering, and you can't end it because reincarnation. What we offer is a way to end that suffering by ceasing to exist, by ceasing to feel, by cutting off all attachments." If reincarnation is real, I wouldn't want to stop.

[breadman]

The source is Satan. I don't know why/how he sinned at first. Does anybody have any ideas?

I grew up with a mythology in which Lucifer volunteered to be the Savior, but with a modification to God's plan that would have "saved" everybody, at the cost of our free will and eternal progression.  A bit like doing a child's homework for them to ensure they graduate with perfect grades, but more invasive.  God declined, and Lucifer argued back until he and his followers got kicked out forever.  Now downgraded to Satan, he can't stand the thought of someone returning to God's presence when he can't, so he does all he can to prevent that.

This is a big thing that I don't understand.  I can get that God wants people to follow Him out of choice, but why even make it possible to doubt His existence?  It makes it vastly more likely that any given person will fail the tests of mortal life and end up with the ensuing punishment, whether you believe that to be eternal Hell, destruction or some kind of vacuous existence away from God or whatever.

I could imagine that if God were much more obviously real and involved with people, whatever free will exists would be maintained while you could then say that people who still did evil things genuinely deserve whatever punishment they get.  You'd have to be insane or really evil to defy an all powerful deity that tells you not to do something and who you know exists and can't possibly miss you doing something bad.

If you then say that it effectively removes free will then... sure, I agree.  But you know, you kind of have a choice: give people the ability and not unreasonable motivation to doubt your existence and punish them for it, or make it really hard for them to deny you and your rules and lose most of whatever you get out of them choosing you willingly.

That can be sidestepped by not punishing people for what they don't know.  It's kind of an issue of culpability vs. responsibility.  Did they mean to break your laws?  Did they do so knowing full well what you desire of them?  If not, don't sweat it so much.

Each person who knows for certain that God exists, and what He wants them to do, is on the hook for the absolute maximum punishment or guilt if they ever disobey.  So a merciful God could minimize culpability by relaying messages through just a few good people.  Unfortunately, that allows the messages to be garbled or ignored...

Alternatively, it could be that God is not in fact all-powerful and is only able to speak to the most faithful, except in very restricted ways.

[Frumple]

P.S. Buddhism, which doesn't have a deity, has reincarnation but if my understanding is correct, seems to say "life is suffering, and you can't end it because reincarnation. What we offer is a way to end that suffering by ceasing to exist, by ceasing to feel, by cutting off all attachments." If reincarnation is real, I wouldn't want to stop.

That's... not particularly accurate. Like, a lot of the parts are there, but the framing and whatnot is just... off. Buddhism identifies the root of suffering (which isn't life in its entirety or anything like that, but the primary negative aspect of it) as desire (not, mind you, feeling), and offers a path towards stopping that. That, in turn, provides a means to step outside the cycle of reincarnation -- even if you actually do obtain the mastery necessary to separate yourself from the cycle, that doesn't mean you have to. If you want to continue reincarnating after obtaining enlightenment, buddhism also allows for that (hell, people considered to have done so are one of the more venerated figures among the various sects). Separation from the cycle of reincarnation generally isn't a matter of ceasing to exist, either, but rather entering a state of nirvana, separate from the cycle of reincarnation -- some conceptualizations of that is indeed nonexistence, from what I recall, but most aren't. More common is generally a dissolution of the self, iirc, but that's a notably different thing.

A better shorthand description would be, "There is suffering in life. Suffering is caused by desire. The way to escape this is to stop holding on to your desires, to cease finding those attachments to be an intrinsic part of yourself. In doing this, you obtain control over your place in the cycle of reincarnation." What those bits entail, exactly, differs based on the particular interpretation you're working with, heh.

[origamiscienceguy]

There are also many who believe in a young earth (less that 10,000 years)

Although with some VERY loose interpretation of the bible, the minimum age of the earth is about 6000 years. This article explains pretty well the problems with a 6000 year earth.

As for me, I believe that God made the universe in 6 days. Any more explanation than that is pretty much superfluous and unnecessary especially since the bible doesn't say anything else about it.

[Telgin]

So, did it all sit around for a few billion years after He made it, or do you doubt the age that scientists have computed for the universe and Earth?  If so, why?  Specifically because the Bible says it was made in 6 days?

That can be sidestepped by not punishing people for what they don't know.  It's kind of an issue of culpability vs. responsibility.  Did they mean to break your laws?  Did they do so knowing full well what you desire of them?  If not, don't sweat it so much.

Each person who knows for certain that God exists, and what He wants them to do, is on the hook for the absolute maximum punishment or guilt if they ever disobey.  So a merciful God could minimize culpability by relaying messages through just a few good people.  Unfortunately, that allows the messages to be garbled or ignored...

Alternatively, it could be that God is not in fact all-powerful and is only able to speak to the most faithful, except in very restricted ways.

That hinges on God having lesser punishments for people who just doubt His existence, which may well be the case but I don't think there's much support for that idea in general.  Most Christians believe you'd go to Hell in some fashion anyway, although some certainly believe that Hell has various levels of punishment, despite there again not being a whole lot of evidence for that to my knowledge.

[TheDarkStar]

That hinges on God having lesser punishments for people who just doubt His existence, which may well be the case but I don't think there's much support for that idea in general.  Most Christians believe you'd go to Hell in some fashion anyway, although some certainly believe that Hell has various levels of punishment, despite there again not being a whole lot of evidence for that to my knowledge.

It depends on what texts you consider scripture .

[TheDarkStar]

It depends on your definition of "day," I imagine. Hard to have "6 days" without an Earth, after all.

Apparently, the Hebrew word can refer either to a literal 24-hour day or to a generic "long time".

[origamiscienceguy]

So, did it all sit around for a few billion years after He made it, or do you doubt the age that scientists have computed for the universe and Earth?  If so, why?  Specifically because the Bible says it was made in 6 days?

I don't really care about the actual age.

I really don't want to get in an argument about this.