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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[origamiscienceguy]

@origamiscienceguy
You lose sentience after death?
I thought we were supposed to persist as, essentially, ourselves.  Just without "sinful desires of the body" and such.
Therefore we would be able to accept the offer of salvation...  I don't think Francis's statement has been disproved by scripture yet.

I meant physical body and brain etc.

[Rolepgeek]

Why would you need a physical body and brain to accept Christ's Love?

Are you 'locked' in place mentally once you die?

Why?

[wierd]

See the ecclesiastes 9 reference please.

The dead are no longer active in such concerns.  They know nothing until they are raised again.

[Orange Wizard]

@origamiscienceguy
You lose sentience after death?
I thought we were supposed to persist as, essentially, ourselves.  Just without "sinful desires of the body" and such.
Therefore we would be able to accept the offer of salvation...  I don't think Francis's statement has been disproved by scripture yet.

I can't remember where it was (probably a parable) where one guy spurned God and went to Hell. After that he begged... Jesus, I think, to tell his brothers about how spurning God was actually a really bad idea, but Jesus said something to the effect of "nope it's too late".

...

Why would you need a physical body and brain to accept Christ's Love?

Are you 'locked' in place mentally once you die?

Why?

It's kind of hard to think without a brain.

[Rolan7]

Ecclesiastes 9, 4 through 6

…4For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

That's fucking terrifying.  But it does counter my point, true!
I'm out

[origamiscienceguy]

There's also that one parable about abraham and the beggar Lazrus talking to the rich man where the rich man went to hell. He asked if he could have another chance, abraham said "nope" he asked if he could warn his friends, abraham said "nope"

[wierd]

Again, that parable relates to Sheol, which had a "good side" and a "Bad side" (seperated by an unfordable river, if you take the description of it in Enoch at face value)

The new testament basically says that this place is no longer used.
(see "harrowing of hell")
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell


Here is the description of Sheol, by Enoch. (note, not in canon bible. Found in apocryphal books!) Just in case anyone is curious.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe025.htm

[Bohandas]

On the contrary. Many studies have been made on Giraffes. 

With rather (alarmingly?) high statistical regularity, the formation of same-sex sexual pairings greatly exceeds random probabilities, and behaviors at breaking these pairings up strongly indicate that the animals experience anxiety and distress at the separation.

http://www.learnanimals.com/giraffe/





(That does not even begin to cover the territory of Bonobos......)l

Don't forget dolphins, penguins, and most especially desert grassland whiptail lizards (Aspidoscelis uniparens).

Also behavi0r arguably s0mewhat consistent with transsexualism has been observed in blenniidae and bluegill sunfish.

[Grim Portent]

On the contrary. Many studies have been made on Giraffes. 

With rather (alarmingly?) high statistical regularity, the formation of same-sex sexual pairings greatly exceeds random probabilities, and behaviors at breaking these pairings up strongly indicate that the animals experience anxiety and distress at the separation.

http://www.learnanimals.com/giraffe/





(That does not even begin to cover the territory of Bonobos......)l

Don't forget dolphins, penguins, and most especially desert grassland whiptail lizards (Aspidoscelis uniparens).

Also behavi0r arguably s0mewhat consistent with transsexualism has been observed in blenniidae and bluegill sunfish.

Doves also engage in same sex pairings with fornication, at least between males, I do not know if female doves engage in lesbianism.

Koala females do though, they even have lesbian orgies. It's thought to be one of the reasons so many of them (about 70% of wild koalas I think) have Chlamidia. In captivity lesbian Koala acts outnumber heterosexual acts by 3:1, though it's unknown what the ratio is like in the wild. I'd assume it's similar since Koala's take pretty well to captivity.

[Bohandas]

The romans 8 quote deals with this succinctly.

The animal world is of the flesh, and dies.  God's judgement is baked right in, so the system is "good" in god's eyes.

However, humans are meant to be spiritual beings, not flesh ones.

"For who can prove that the human spirit goes up and the spirit of animals goes down into the earth?" -Ecclesiastes 3:21

[Robsoie]

Ecclesiastes 9, 4 through 6

…4For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

That's fucking terrifying.  But it does counter my point, true!
I'm out

From a Christianity perspective it is not terrifying, because one of the fundamentals of Christianity is the Resurrection of the dead.
Matthew 22 (23 to 33)

And at the Resurrection the dead is not abandonned or forgotten, the believer , the ones that applied the Christ teachings will be raised, given life eternal as the Christ explains in John 6 ( 25 to 71 )

There are more precisions about this state and Resurrection in Corinthians 15 , the natural body that perish, the spiritual body that is raised, and how death in Christianity is not a finality, it is in fact considered as the "last enemy" that will be destroyed.

It's good to additionally point that angels/messengers that the raised will be similar to, as refered in the text from Matthew to aren't brainless/voiceless entities, through the bible they can discuss , they can interact.

[Bohandas]

Ecclesiastes 9, 4 through 6

…4For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

That's fucking terrifying.  But it does counter my point, true!
I'm out

From a Christianity perspective it is not terrifying, because one of the fundamentals of Christianity is the Resurrection of the dead.

Frommthat perspective it explains even more. If you're a vegetable in heaven or hell that explains why you can't fall or repent after death.

[Robsoie]

Frommthat perspective it explains even more. If you're a vegetable in heaven or hell that explains why you can't fall or repent after death.

No, you're simply ignoring what the Christ was saying about the subject, and so it is not "from that perspective", the Christian one i mean, but from your own.

[breadman]

Well, it is hard to accept jesus after death. (by hard i mean impossible since you can't think or talk anymore.)

Peter begs to differ:

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Then again,

Ecclesiastes 9, 4 through 6

…4For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

Yeah.  I stopped taking the Bible so seriously after actually reading it all the way through.

Religions—all religions—breed people at every end of the spectrum.
Some are tolerant, sensible people.  Others are absolute nutters.
Pretending the second group doesn't exist does the first group no PR favours.

It can be helpful to realize that most people have a largely self-consistent worldview, and do things for a reason that makes perfect sense to them, though perhaps only on a subconscious level.  In many cases, that worldview is dominated by a fear of outsiders, or a fear of being seen as an outsider.  Unfortunately, group definition tends to be driven by the loudest people, who tend to be the nutters.

Is there any way out of this, without starting a new group with its own nutters?

[origamiscienceguy]

Peter is referring to those who died before Jesus came, but still followed God. Their actions will allow them into heaven. They had the prophecies and if they trusted God to carry through with his promises to bring a savior, it is just like they believed in the savior themselves.