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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[Orange Wizard]

The whole religious fraud stuff really pisses me off. It's disgusting.

[Rolan7]

Many religions today aren't necessarily untrue, though. They're unfalsifiable, which while not ideal still isn't the same thing as outright lying.

Oh definitely.  What I was talking about was intentionally spreading or allowing an untruth to spread.  So, not the vast majority of religious people.

I actually misstated this despite trying to clarify.  What I meant was spreading an untruth *while knowing it isn't true*.  IE, lying.  I hope that came across anyway.

The whole religious fraud stuff really pisses me off. It's disgusting.

Same.  It's preying on people's needs for comfort, community, and higher meaning.  It's large-scale theft from people who often have little to spare, and AFAIK it's usually legal.

It's completely different from actual religion, which provides real community and is honestly searching for higher meaning.

[Fenrir]

I wonder if people like Popoff actually know they’re being asshats or if, through some kind of mental acrobatics, manage to justify what they do to themselves.

[Adragis]

I wonder if people like Popoff actually know they’re being asshats or if, through some kind of mental acrobatics, manage to justify what they do to themselves.

Psychopathy: 'They're dumb enough to fall for it, why shouldn't I benefit from that?'
Although that's not always, well, psychopathy.

[Rolan7]

I think confidence tricksters usually justify it as "If you can steal it, you've earned it".  Which...  is actually pretty valid, unless you hold truth or the social contract as high ideals.  Like I do.

Oddly, they do make for interesting protagonists in fiction.  I guess because they're clever instead of strong, and villain protagonists can be fun.

ninja'd, yeah psychopathy helps a lot.  Since it basically means being cut off from the normal social pressures, I think, including the contract.

[Bohandas]

I think confidence tricksters usually justify it as "If you can steal it, you've earned it".

So not that different from legitimate industry

[Bohandas]

In general though, I consider it evil for an untruth to be allowed to spread.  It's dishonest, even if people are happier being wrong.  Pragmatically it can set back scientific and cultural development, which in turn hold back productivity and the pursuit of happiness.  In the long run, following the truth seems like the best strategy for human happiness.

I agree.

[Fenrir]

Eh, that’s probably true in a lot of areas, but much of religious belief doesn’t seem to intersect too much with daily life and scientific progress. Yeah, you’ve got America’s religious that fuck up a few facets of progress, so I’m not going to say you’re definitely wrong, but it’s not obvious to me that religion is a net impediment to progress. It seems to be fairly adaptable and willing to retcon (which is part of what makes it so pernicious).

[origamiscienceguy]

Well, what do you do if you can't know if something is true or not?

[Fenrir]

Well, what do you do if you can't know if something is true or not?

Short answer: neither believe it nor disbelieve it.

The answer seems obvious, so I think I’m misunderstanding you.

[Rolan7]

You make a theory and run an experiment to see how well that theory predicts reality.  If it fits well enough, you publish your findings.  Eventually some jerkface will come along and make a more complete and/or accurate theory.

Other people will trust your theory because it's testable, and there's incentive to test it.  If someone tests your theory and the data doesn't match, they get points and you lose.  The fittest theories survive, until fitter theories replace them.

The sucky thing is that we *can't* know if something is true or not.  We can only refine our theories.  Fortunately our theories have gotten refined to the point that we can make computers, so.

[Orange Wizard]

Fortunately our theories have gotten refined to the point that we can make computers, so.

In an alternate universe: "The new GodBook Pro: Christ Inside is on sale now for a bargain $1299 plus delivery!"

[Egan_BW]

Well, what do you do if you can't know if something is true or not?

Learn until you can.

[Arcvasti]

Well, what do you do if you can't know if something is true or not?

Get bored searching for the answer and just have fun with other stuff. Can't have been THAT important.

[Rolepgeek]

My theory for the accelerating expansion of the universe is yottoscopic lawn gnomes, all wanting as much space to themselves as possible, pushing everything else in the universe alongside them.

Though, for those of you who don't believe in God; have you heard of Roko's basilisk?