Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[Orange Wizard]

There are other interpretations, but mine is that faith is worthless without accompanying actions.

Yeah, this

John seems to disagree.

Saved by faith != deeds are worthless. It's your work that makes your faith valuable.

Being repentant is believing you were in the wrong and saying so to God.

... and making a sincere effort to turn away from sin. Your apology is worthless if you don't try to change. Making reparations is a clear way of indicating that you're trying.

[Teneb]

There are other interpretations, but mine is that faith is worthless without accompanying actions.

Yeah, this

John seems to disagree.

Saved by faith != deeds are worthless. It's your work that makes your faith valuable.

Being repentant is believing you were in the wrong and saying so to God.

... and making a sincere effort to turn away from sin. Your apology is worthless if you don't try to change. Making reparations is a clear way of indicating that you're trying.

But OW, you are a heretic. Everything you say is automatically wrong.

[Rolan7]

?
Oh you mean this from four pages ago

OW confirmed for works-based salvation heretic.

I actually tend to agree.  I think the Catholic stance is much more reasonable, but I don't yet think it matches the Bible narrative.
Of course, the Bible's just a book.  Seems like a lot of Christians agree that it's inaccurate and outdated.

Still...

Where does it say that?

Everywhere

Matthew 25:31-46English Standard Version (ESV)

The Final Judgment
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Nah

John 13:34-35English Standard Version (ESV)

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Nah

Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

This is a solid point for a Biblical argument.

[Rolepgeek]

I think the idea behind 'you just need faith' is that the effort is what's important. Making the effort, and continuing to make the effort. And for that matter, not trying for the sake of trying, but genuinely working on reparations and becoming closer to God or whatever. If you don't succeed for whatever reason, you aren't just boned because they died before you could mend the fences.

At least, that's my interpretation.

[NRDL]

IMO, if a human were to create the rules behind faith and its relationship to action, a human would indeed emphasise, like I'm sure most do, that action is necessary, not just faith.  And that's because if a human were wronged, he/she'd would want some sort of reparatory action performed to him/her, not just good intentions and a sorry.

The priorities of a deity would probably be different, as only a lack of faith would be disturbing to them. Any lack of reparatory action would be irrelevant to them, as it would be impossible to wrong them anyway.  The rules were made for mortals. 

[Teneb]

Psh. Just visit Jerusalem. That's worth 10 years of indulgence.

[Rolepgeek]

IMO, if a human were to create the rules behind faith and its relationship to action, a human would indeed emphasise, like I'm sure most do, that action is necessary, not just faith.  And that's because if a human were wronged, he/she'd would want some sort of reparatory action performed to him/her, not just good intentions and a sorry.

The priorities of a deity would probably be different, as only a lack of faith would be disturbing to them. Any lack of reparatory action would be irrelevant to them, as it would be impossible to wrong them anyway.  The rules were made for mortals.

You can totally wrong God. It's just as long as you have faith, he can accept that. I believe, anyway.

[Teneb]

IMO, if a human were to create the rules behind faith and its relationship to action, a human would indeed emphasise, like I'm sure most do, that action is necessary, not just faith.  And that's because if a human were wronged, he/she'd would want some sort of reparatory action performed to him/her, not just good intentions and a sorry.

The priorities of a deity would probably be different, as only a lack of faith would be disturbing to them. Any lack of reparatory action would be irrelevant to them, as it would be impossible to wrong them anyway.  The rules were made for mortals.

You can totally wrong God. It's just as long as you have faith, he can accept that. I believe, anyway.

Yes. According to St Gregory and St Augstine (especially since Gregory loved to parrot Augustine), God expects people to sin. It's just that he wants them to repent whenever that happens, improving themselves in the process.

[Egan_BW]

How can you wrong a thing when said thing is directly responsible for literally everything.

[Orange Wizard]

Hundreds of books have been written on that question

[Rose]

The simplest explanation, in my opinion, is that said thing doesn't really care one way or other what we do.

I also don't see why that thing would care about humans over roaches or algae.

[Rolepgeek]

How can you wrong a thing when said thing is directly responsible for literally everything.

He told you not to do something.

Then you did the thing.

I think it's fairly clear how.

[Rolan7]

(Under judeo-christian understanding)
He designed you such that you did the thing, though.

[Rolepgeek]

(Under judeo-christian understanding)
He designed you such that you did the thing, though.

That's one interpretation. Deism is also a thing. As is free will, in judeo-christian understanding. You still chose to do the thing. You still have responsibility for it.

[TheDarkStar]

(Under judeo-christian understanding)
He designed you such that you did the thing, though.

It depends on whether you have free will or not.

PPE: and Rolepgeek beat me to it.