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[hector13]

Apparently Area C of the West Bank and the sea zone off the coast have significant oil and gas reserves... Area C is the framework of roads, military bases, and colonizer settlements that the Israeli disallow Palestinian access.

The UN Conference on Trade and Development's 2019 report on this topic..

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Geologists and natural resources economists have confirmed that the Occupied Palestinian
Territory lies above sizeable reservoirs of oil and natural gas wealth, in Area C of the occupied
West Bank and the Mediterranean coast off the Gaza Strip. However, occupation continues to
prevent Palestinians from developing their energy fields so as to exploit and benefit from such
assets. As such, the Palestinian people have been denied the benefits of using this natural resource
to finance socioeconomic development and meet their need for energy. The accumulated losses
are estimated in the billions of dollars. The longer Israel prevents Palestinians from exploiting their
own oil and natural gas reserves, the greater the opportunity costs and the greater the total costs of
the occupation borne by Palestinians become.

This study identifies and assesses existing and potential Palestinian oil and natural gas reserves
that could be exploited for the benefit of the Palestinian people, which Israel is either preventing
them from exploiting or is exploiting without due regard for international law.

Does the rest of Israel know what business is being conducted in the West Bank? How many of the businesses working those resources are owned and operated by the far right?

@Hector
I hit a state of surreal when I found I was comparing "1 million people attempting to migrate and being bombed" to "1 million people being relocated into economic or actual slavery".

I wouldn’t call people moving - willingly or otherwise - to avoid bombs “migrants”, particularly when Israel told them to move for their safety but still continues to put them at risk by bombing the areas they were told to flee to, but sure, whatever, “migrants”.

What you’re doing is comparing what’s happening in Ukraine with what’s happening in Gaza. Gaza has been under blockade since Israel moved out in ‘05, and suffers from a consequent humanitarian crisis, worsened by this conflict.

Israel’s position is that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza, which sucks for Gaza because Israel controls the vast majority of what - and who - gets in or out.

Aside from that, I don’t particularly want to compare anything. Strongpoint got bent out of shape about a politician saying something, I said the politician wasn’t wrong and said why.

I’m not trying to say any particular conflict is better or worse than another. War sucks, people die. Someone dying in Gaza isn’t worth more or less than someone dying in Ukraine, or Tigray, or anywhere else. Suggesting we’re not allowed to get upset about any particular conflict because we didn’t get obviously upset about another one is foolish.

I would also contend that world government’s didn’t ignore these other conflicts. Ukraine is still being supported by countries across the world, and when the Tigray conflict began, the Ethiopian president basically told the world to go away. There’s not much that can be done after that, but reports kept coming out of the region as NGOs were trying to help, and government’s tried to get involved to bring the conflict to an end.

Unfortunately, short of putting boots on the ground there’s not much that can be done anyway. Sanctions can be avoided by trading with countries that don’t acknowledge or otherwise ignore them, like Russia trading oil with China and India, and diplomats can be ignored or fobbed off, like when Abiy told everyone to fuck off until Ethiopia asked for something. There are enough competing ideologies in the world that if you get shunned by one you can go to another for what you need.

[Schmaven]

While 360 sqare Km is indeed small, there are even smaller sovereign states in the world, so it's not without precedent.  Is the size of the strip their main issue with Palestinian statehood? 

[lemon10]

The main issue with Palestinian statehood is the fact that they are surrounded by a hostile state (Isreal) that doesn't want them to have statehood and that is happy and willing to cut off their supplies of water/food/medicine.

If Isreal agreed and was in favor of it the land they currently own is enough for them to be a fully functioning state.

Which has always been the issue with the two state solution, it doesn't matter what the weaker party says, as long as Isreal isn't arguing in good faith (and they aren't because they don't actually want a solution because a solution would make Palestine stronger and make stuff like ethnically cleansing Palestine harder) it will never work out.

Its like Italy and Vatican city. They have a perfectly fine two state solution going on, but its contingent on Italy being chill with the Vatican and not say, locking them all inside and sticking a giant wall around the city.

[Strongpoint]

While 360 sqare Km is indeed small, there are even smaller sovereign states in the world, so it's not without precedent.  Is the size of the strip their main issue with Palestinian statehood? 

1) Palestinians live not only in Gaza, the West Bank, larger in area
2) Majority of Palestinians (or, at the very least, politically significant Palestinians) have zero interest in an independent GAZA + West Bank. They want Israel to be gone, claiming all of its territory as Free Palestine
3) Even moderate Palestinians who believe in the Two-State solution want 1969 or even 1948 borders, both are something Israel will never agree with.
4) Even those Palestinians who would agree to an independent state of Gaza+West Bank also want Jerusalem. Naturally, Israel won't be giving away its cultural and religious center.

[feelotraveller]

Since 1948 is mentioned thought the beginning of the wikipedia article on Nakba was worth dropping in here.

The Nakba (Arabic: النكبة, romanized: an-Nakbah, lit. 'the catastrophe') was the violent displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, and the destruction of their society, culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations. The term is used to describe both the events of 1948, as well as the ongoing occupation of the Palestinian territories (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) and persecution and displacement of Palestinians throughout the region.

The foundational events of the Nakba took place during and shortly after the 1948 Palestine war, including 78% of Mandatory Palestine being declared as Israel, the expulsion and flight of 700,000 Palestinians, the related depopulation and destruction of over 500 Palestinian villages by Zionist militias and later the Israeli army and subsequent geographical erasure, the denial of the Palestinian right of return, the creation of permanent Palestinian refugees, and the "shattering of Palestinian society".

[Strongpoint]

Basing current negotiations on undoing Nakba is really close to demanding the undoing of Russian and Polish annexation of East Prussia. It will not happen unless someone wins a new huge war and will require ethnical cleansing of a similar scale as 80 years ago.

[Cheeetar]

I love to visit the old forums to see pro-genocide activists wearing down people futilely trying to say that killing innocent children is bad, actually.

[Strongpoint]

One more thing regarding Nakba

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-210902/

3. In conclusion, the Arab Higher Committee Delegation wishes to stress the following:
(a) The Arabs of Palestine will never recognise the validity of the extorted partition recommendations or the authority of the United Nations to make them.
(b) The Arabs of Palestine consider that any attempt by the Jews or any power group of powers to establish a Jewish state in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense.
(c) It is very unwise and fruitless to ask any commission to proceed to Palestine because not a single Arab will cooperate with the said Commission.
(d) The United Nations or its Commission should not be misled to believe that its efforts in the partition plan will meet with any success. It will be far better for the eclipsed prestige of this organization not to start on this adventure.
(e) The United Nations prestige will be better served by abandoning, not enforcing such an injustice.
(f) The determination of every Arab in Palestine is to oppose in every way the partition of that country.
(g) The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child.

Here is what was the key cause of Nakba. They said what is required... and they received it. Luckily for them, wiping out was more like "being kicked out of their homes with some killed in the process" instead of Jews using their personal deep knowledge of how genocides are done.

When you start a war of aggression and lose, there is a good chance that it is YOUR people who will be ethnically cleansed. It is how it works.

I know that Palestinians don't believe that it was a war of aggression, they believe and keep believing that they are/were defending against Jewish colonizers who unlawfully got their land.

But for everyone who believes that Jewish nation has the right to have some kind of a national state in the general vicinity of Jerusalem (aka  Zionists) and\or that UN\British decision to establish the state of Israel was a legal one - Israel defended itself against an aggression. Just like Hamas attack of October 7th was a terrible, barbaric aggression and Israel is doing nothing but using its right for self-defense.

The 2020s are not like the 1940s *remembers that he lives in a country being invaded*... I mean I hope that Israel will act right after their victory and will not start yet another round of ethnic cleansing. But if they do... Well, it is how the world works. Don't start wars if you don't want such consequences.

[feelotraveller]

Your words (not mine):

Please, don't provide links to liars from corrupt organizations like HRW, AI or UN.

Where is your self-respect?

[Strongpoint]

Official historical documents are official historical documents. Besides UN of 1947 isn't the same as UN of 2023. Are you implying that those words of Arab Higher Committee are a forgery of the UN of that time?

Also, my words were referring to a specific claim of major Israeli war crimes. I wanted facts, direct evidence, not the words of people whom I don't trust and consider not neutral in the conflict.

[Frumple]

While 360 sqare Km is indeed small, there are even smaller sovereign states in the world, so it's not without precedent.  Is the size of the strip their main issue with Palestinian statehood?

There are exactly twelve smaller sovereign states in the world, and their combined population is about a fifth of what you're proposing be shoved into that area.

The size of the strip is one of several major reasons the proposition you're making is completely unworkable. It's sufficient on its own to make it super bloody obvious why the people of palestine would have zero interest in that as a solution, assuming Israel would even allow it (spoiler, it wouldn't).

Also, my words were referring to a specific claim of major Israeli war crimes. I wanted facts, direct evidence, not the words of people whom I don't trust and consider not neutral in the conflict.

I mean, okay. Who would you trust in this case? It's not going to be Israel, either, so what's your standard?

[Strongpoint]

I mean, okay. Who would you trust in this case? It's not going to be Israel, either, so what's your standard?

Direct evidence. Anything that goes as a proof that Israel delibarely targets civilians and\or does less to avoid collatoral damage than is norm for modern armies in simillar operations.

Not stuff like "We, experts of *insert organization* believe that Israel is doing major war crimes." followed by emotional manipulation with dead children.

Arguments from authority don't work when someone is not an authority for you, do you agree?

[dragdeler]

Direct evidence, you been watching gore or what?! Otherwise I don't see how one could fetishize strength over territorial integrity, especially from your perspective.

[Great Order]

Maybe I'm a bit weird, but I feel that a bunch of people saying "You want rid of us, you have to kill us" doesn't give you permission to then perform an ethnic cleansing.

At the end of WWII we didn't go and ethnically cleanse Germany and form a new state did we? They performed a genocide for crying out loud and we still didn't do it!

Also lost wars of aggression don't generally cause genocide or ethnic cleanses. If they did, every culture that ever performed a war of aggression and lost would be wiped out by now. We'd be living in a literal monoculture by now if we did. In fact, the opposite's more likely - A won war of aggression is more likely to cause a genocide as the conqueror seeks to stabilise their new lands by removing the people who might rebel against it or they feel their people are superior and thus force out the natives to give the "right" people more land or they do the nicer one and "just" systematically destroy the culture by doing things like separating parents from children, banning certain cultural things, and educating kids in the ways of the conquering culture.

Anyway, a bit off topic now. Ethnic cleansing bad, even if they tell you to do it. It doesn't justify its performance.

[Strongpoint]

At the end of WWII we didn't go and ethnically cleanse Germany and form a new state did we? They performed a genocide for crying out loud and we still didn't do it!

Define WE. Because if WE is humanity... I have news for you - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950)

It is actually interesting how people with no serious interest in history tend to know nothing about more than 10 million Germans ethnically cleansed at the end and right after WW2. I have encountered this many times.

"You want rid of us, you have to kill us" doesn't give you permission to then perform an ethnic cleansing.

Did I say anything about permission or that it was right? Nakba was wrong and evil. Ethnic cleansing of Germans of Eastern Europe wasn't right either. I am merely saying that there was a context and that the Palestinian-Israeli conflict did not start with Nakba, Nakba was the consequence of the conflict.

Also, another thing worth mentioning. Jews were also ethnically cleansed by Arabs. All Arab countries kicked rather large Jewish communities out. Many of the people who settled on lands taken from Palestinians were themselves refugees who suffered injustice from Arabs. And before anyone accuses me of denying Palestinian nation and calling them just Arabs - Palestinian nation exists but it is impossible to look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict outside of the wider Arab-Israeli one.

Also lost wars of aggression don't generally cause genocide or ethnic cleanses. If they did, every culture that ever performed a war of aggression and lost would be wiped out by now. We'd be living in a literal monoculture by now if we did. In fact, the opposite's more likely

They often do when you lose so soundly that the country you were trying to conquer conquered you. Also, countries tend to be... unkind to ethnic minorities of people coming from the countries who wage war against them. Generally - side that loses suffers.