Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13

Author Topic: SPAM_CITY-STATE: Tyrant Gezhugimiluk of Gedur!  (Read 8117 times)

King Zultan

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: SPAM_CITY-STATE: Tyrant Gezhugimiluk of Gedur!
« Reply #150 on: May 14, 2024, 01:13:23 am »

A
Logged
The Lawyer opens a briefcase. It's full of lemons, the justice fruit only lawyers may touch.
Make sure not to step on any errant blood stains before we find our LIFE EXTINGUSHER.
but anyway, if you'll excuse me, I need to commit sebbaku.
Quote from: Leodanny
Can I have the sword when you’re done?

Ixarys

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: SPAM_CITY-STATE: Tyrant Gezhugimiluk of Gedur!
« Reply #151 on: May 14, 2024, 04:56:48 pm »

By the way, Ixarys, what would you say is the approximate ratio between their population and ours?

Ewadd is between half and two third as big as Gedur, to give a rough estimate



You agree to meet the group. They sheepishly enter in your tent. When you ask their terms, one of them, a wealthy man in his fifty or sixty years, speaks for them.

"Tyrant of Gedur, we are ready to support you in your war against the Nenubilanurians.
- What are your conditions?
- The independence of Ewadd, and a formal alliance between our cities. Preferably with a marriage.
- And what army do you bring in exchange?"

The envoys share embarrassed glances to each other. Their speaker responds.

"Tyrant, as tributary we had reduced rights to raise troops. We mainly have militias. Enough as a garrison, but not for a full scale battle. Our support would be mainly… Material."

Thanking them for their offer, you send them out to discuss with your generals.
The main position amongst them is that the Ewaddians offer too little for too much, and are either bluffing or greedy. Considering their own admitted weakness, they believe you should push your advantage, and ask for at least a position similar to tributary. Some even argue for a full integration, with a Gedurian governor to lead the city. A few believe instead that occupying the city, whether by surrender or force would give you much more leverage to impose your will on the Ewaddians.

Leaving your tent, you announce your response to the Ewaddians envoys.

A) "I accept your deal"
B) "Ewadd will be a tributary of Gedur."
C) "You are not in position to negociate. A governor shall be appointed to manage Ewadd."
D) "Unconditional surrender or we will beat some sense into your skulls."
Logged

Maximum Spin

  • Bay Watcher
  • [OPPOSED_TO_LIFE] [GOES_TO_ELEVEN]
    • View Profile
Re: SPAM_CITY-STATE: Tyrant Gezhugimiluk of Gedur!
« Reply #152 on: May 14, 2024, 11:54:34 pm »

A population half to two thirds as big as our own is too big for us to easily integrate, so neither coequal alliance nor subjugation is ideal. In the first case, we will have a direct competitor, if a peaceful one, who we may eventually unite with after many generations, but who will for the practical duration of the game be an unreliable and culturally dissonant partner with its own identity and therefore its own goals. In the second, we will have to spend a considerable part of our resources to keep them under control, since their desire for independence is already proven.
I wish to bring them into a subsidiary partnership which will eventually dissolve and consume them as a separate nation. Therefore, we should divide them, like the Sabines, allowing them progressively to integrate into our culture over time. The recipe for doing so is well-established by history.

I propose the following unequal alliance:
1) Our established merchants and tradesmen will have free rights to operate and domicile in Ewadd, while maintaining communication with Gedur and a right to preserve their Gedurian cultural practices in Ewadd. Should they grow in number, a specific portion of the city will be allocated to them as a cultural quarter. Should they so choose, they will have the right to take Ewaddian wives, and bring them back to Gedur when they return. They will also have the right to bring Gedurian apprentices to Ewadd or take Ewaddian apprentices (being encouraged to instruct the latter on Gedurian culture); "graduated" Ewaddian apprentices who are vouched for by Gedurian masters will be permitted to settle in Gedur as well. Gedurian merchants and tradesmen in Ewadd will be granted equivalent trade rights in the Gedurian market to those living in Gedur itself, so they will have the economic advantage in Ewadd.
2) Ewaddian youth will have the right to join the Gedurian army to make their fortune, and, should they comport themselves with dignity and courage in a manner becoming of a Gedurian soldier, will be permitted to settle in Gedur after their term of service. As Ewadd presently lacks an army, we will magnanimously take over the question of their defense with our own so there is no need for them to raise a separate army, and they are instead encouraged to join ours. Of course, Gedurian culture will be enforced  (with a light hand at least at first) in the ranks and integration thereto will be a condition of promotion.
3) Those of the Ewaddian landed elite who wish to live under the splendor of Gedurian culture will have the right to migrate to Gedur upon payment of a modest fee. Unlike our own migrants in Ewadd, we will distribute them throughout the city without allowing them to concentrate in any particular area, and the fee will be calibrated from time to time in order to limit them to a minority of less than a third or so of our own native elite. They will be encouraged to adopt Gedurian culture, their children will be permitted (that is to say, strongly encouraged) to marry into the Gedurian native elite, and, of course, Gedurian families will be allowed to inherit from Ewaddian ancestors.
4) Members of the Gedurian landed elite, including those of Ewaddian descent, will have the right to be received in the Ewaddian court, should they visit Ewadd for any reason, with the pomp due to their station. Of course the same right will be extended to Ewaddians in Gedur, but, as we are a larger and therefore ostensibly grander city, we will implicitly expect more pomp for our own elite than the reverse. Should this prove a drain on the Ewaddian treasury, our own merchants and tradesmen operating in Ewadd will be happy to offer reasonable loans, I am sure.
5) Ewaddian maidens will have the right to come to Gedur seeking Gedurian husbands. This will naturally be necessary since a proportion of Ewaddian young men were removed by way of point 2. Gedurian men will have to pay a small fee for permission to marry Ewaddian women, which will be calibrated from time to time to keep the level of Ewaddian immigration low; and the fee will be reduced for men who already have Gedurian wives, provided they have more Gedurian than Ewaddian. Ewaddian men living in Gedur due to any of the other items in the list will not be permitted to bring in new Ewaddian wives in this (or any) way, barring exceptional circumstances, but will of course be encouraged to marry any good Gedurian girls who will have them.
6) Needless to say, all Ewaddian immigrants in Gedur will be encouraged to adopt Gedurian culture and pass it to their children, and their children will be encouraged to marry full-blooded Gedurians and disseminate through Gedur rather than concentrating anywhere as an ethnic minority. Anyone of fully Ewaddian ancestry maintaining Ewaddian culture will also not be permitted to own Gedurian land, although, since the landed elite ought to be quite small in this time period, I don't expect this to come up at all anyway. All residents of Gedur will be encouraged to think of themselves as Gedurians, as will all Gedurians in Ewadd.
7) In no circumstance should Ewaddian immigrants to Gedur be allowed to outnumber Gedurian emigrants to Ewadd. We should maintain a flexible target of about half as many. All migrants on both sides will be guaranteed the full rights and franchise permitted to citizens of their town of domicile.
8) From time to time, Gedur may choose to make investments in Ewadd for the good of both peoples - perhaps building granaries, or new walls, or mills, or what have you. Such investments will be understood to remain Gedurian property, with any fees for their use, etc., being due to the Gedurian crown; after all, we must be free to act in the interest of our shared prosperity.

Matters pertaining to our internal policy, like the encouragement of cultural assimilation, though, the Ewaddian delegation don't need to know about. They should only be told about what their own people's rights and ours will be under the new system.

In this way, the flow of Gedurians into Ewadd will be made up of the affluent and established who are more likely to maintain Gedurian culture, serve as Gedurian cultural ambassadors to Ewadd, and gain political influence in support of Gedurian interest, while the flow of Ewaddians into Gedur will largely be the young and impressionable placed in a position of implicit subjection, as well as that portion of the elite willing to subject themselves to whatever Gedurian court grandeur may be. (Hopefully it is better than Ewaddian.) The overall effect is to position Gedur as the superior city culturally, militarily, and economically, so the influence will flow from us to them and whatever conservative remnant in Ewadd resists Gedurization can increasingly be marginalized over time. In time, if we can make ourselves impressive enough, even the full-blooded Ewaddian youth living in Ewadd would come to see themselves as Gedurian, and avenues for their integration into Gedur should be expanded - as long as avenues for Gedurian settlement in Ewadd are also expanded.

In principle, Ewaddians are offered quite a lot of privileges by this plan, so unless they are far-sighted enough to perceive the implied extinction of their culture, it seems unlikely that they would reject it. It technically includes their full demands - Ewaddian "independence" and Gedurian military support - and can even be sealed with a marriage if there is a good available candidate. But in time, it entails their complete subjugation. I assert this proposal to be option E, for Ewaddia delenda est.
Also, I think it's just a lot more narratively interesting.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2024, 12:28:02 am by Maximum Spin »
Logged

King Zultan

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: SPAM_CITY-STATE: Tyrant Gezhugimiluk of Gedur!
« Reply #153 on: May 15, 2024, 02:09:43 am »

That sounds good to me. +1 to E.
Logged
The Lawyer opens a briefcase. It's full of lemons, the justice fruit only lawyers may touch.
Make sure not to step on any errant blood stains before we find our LIFE EXTINGUSHER.
but anyway, if you'll excuse me, I need to commit sebbaku.
Quote from: Leodanny
Can I have the sword when you’re done?

NUKE9.13

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: SPAM_CITY-STATE: Tyrant Gezhugimiluk of Gedur!
« Reply #154 on: May 15, 2024, 09:21:28 am »

[An alternative proposal that is almost 1000 words long]
Even if this proposal was a perfect plan that I would vote for in a heartbeat, it just isn't true to the spirit of a SPAM game. Like, even suggesting an alternative option is sketchy, imo, but can sometimes be justified if there is an obvious course of action that the GM overlooked. But to suggest an alternative that takes more than two sentences to describe? That's something you do in a regular suggestion game.

Anyway. A is definitely too generous to Ewadd. D is unnecessarily harsh. B is the most neutral option- it doesn't change their status, just the direction they send tribute. They probably won't make a fuss if we choose B, or rebel at the first opportunity- otherwise they'd have already done so towards Nenubilanur. C would require stationing a garrison in the city, which probably means ending the campaign here, but it would eventually let us build a real kingdom, rather than a city state with tributaries.
I think we eventually want to aim for a more prominent position in the world, requiring we make Ewadd (and others) our direct subjects.
But for right now, I reckon the nail that sticks out gets hammered down. Let's not provoke Ewadd or our neighbours by engaging in overt expansion. We need to build ourselves up more first, I think.
Also, option B would allow us to continue the campaign, taking the fight to Nenubilanur itself. Even if we don't have the capacity to conquer or even subjugate Nenubilanur, we might be able to earn ourselves some generous reparations. With Ewadd funding the campaign, and the Nenubil army recently weakened, that seems like a reasonable goal.

B
Logged
Long Live United Forenia!

Maximum Spin

  • Bay Watcher
  • [OPPOSED_TO_LIFE] [GOES_TO_ELEVEN]
    • View Profile
Re: SPAM_CITY-STATE: Tyrant Gezhugimiluk of Gedur!
« Reply #155 on: May 15, 2024, 09:59:08 am »

Even if this proposal was a perfect plan that I would vote for in a heartbeat, it just isn't true to the spirit of a SPAM game. Like, even suggesting an alternative option is sketchy, imo, but can sometimes be justified if there is an obvious course of action that the GM overlooked. But to suggest an alternative that takes more than two sentences to describe? That's something you do in a regular suggestion game.
If Ixarys doesn't allow it as a separate option, but does keep the concepts in mind for our future interaction with this and other independent nations, I'll be just as happy.
Logged

Ixarys

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: SPAM_CITY-STATE: Tyrant Gezhugimiluk of Gedur!
« Reply #156 on: May 15, 2024, 11:08:05 am »

[An alternative proposal that is almost 1000 words long]
Even if this proposal was a perfect plan that I would vote for in a heartbeat, it just isn't true to the spirit of a SPAM game. Like, even suggesting an alternative option is sketchy, imo, but can sometimes be justified if there is an obvious course of action that the GM overlooked. But to suggest an alternative that takes more than two sentences to describe? That's something you do in a regular suggestion game.

To quote myself:

About votes

I am not against suggesting new options on a vote. However, I trust you to not go overboard on it. Should the votes get more divided than an election on proportional ballot, we might back out.
Another rule on this is to not get over detailed on new option. A good rule of thumb is to not make it longer than the already existing options.

I actually like new options (as long as it’s not an excuse for every players to offer their own option every time), players can surprise me. However if the E option here win, you won’t find in the game the level of detail that was put in the response. It will be simplified and summarize.
Logged

Maximum Spin

  • Bay Watcher
  • [OPPOSED_TO_LIFE] [GOES_TO_ELEVEN]
    • View Profile
Re: SPAM_CITY-STATE: Tyrant Gezhugimiluk of Gedur!
« Reply #157 on: May 15, 2024, 12:14:40 pm »

I actually like new options (as long as it’s not an excuse for every players to offer their own option every time), players can surprise me. However if the E option here win, you won’t find in the game the level of detail that was put in the response. It will be simplified and summarize.
I hope it's understood that I was fully expecting that. I'm thinking of the detail that I put into it as a nice a la carte selection of potential future sources of complications I wanted to highlight. I know I went overboard, but what can I say, I just ended up getting into it. What my proposal really comes down to is "offer the Ewaddians an unequal relationship which offers them nominal independence and our protection in exchange for total cultural hegemony in the long run".

But that's kind of a subtle concept so I felt the need to explain what it could look like! I imagine most people haven't put much thought into how to dismantle an entire nation, so I decided there ought to be a handbook.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2024, 12:18:12 pm by Maximum Spin »
Logged

Ixarys

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: SPAM_CITY-STATE: Tyrant Gezhugimiluk of Gedur!
« Reply #158 on: May 15, 2024, 01:32:31 pm »

Alright then, it’s appreciated!
Logged

BlackPaladin99

  • Bay Watcher
  • The dark Knight of Eternity
    • View Profile
Re: SPAM_CITY-STATE: Tyrant Gezhugimiluk of Gedur!
« Reply #159 on: May 16, 2024, 01:11:06 pm »

A population half to two thirds as big as our own is too big for us to easily integrate, so neither coequal alliance nor subjugation is ideal. In the first case, we will have a direct competitor, if a peaceful one, who we may eventually unite with after many generations, but who will for the practical duration of the game be an unreliable and culturally dissonant partner with its own identity and therefore its own goals. In the second, we will have to spend a considerable part of our resources to keep them under control, since their desire for independence is already proven.
I wish to bring them into a subsidiary partnership which will eventually dissolve and consume them as a separate nation. Therefore, we should divide them, like the Sabines, allowing them progressively to integrate into our culture over time. The recipe for doing so is well-established by history.

I propose the following unequal alliance:
1) Our established merchants and tradesmen will have free rights to operate and domicile in Ewadd, while maintaining communication with Gedur and a right to preserve their Gedurian cultural practices in Ewadd. Should they grow in number, a specific portion of the city will be allocated to them as a cultural quarter. Should they so choose, they will have the right to take Ewaddian wives, and bring them back to Gedur when they return. They will also have the right to bring Gedurian apprentices to Ewadd or take Ewaddian apprentices (being encouraged to instruct the latter on Gedurian culture); "graduated" Ewaddian apprentices who are vouched for by Gedurian masters will be permitted to settle in Gedur as well. Gedurian merchants and tradesmen in Ewadd will be granted equivalent trade rights in the Gedurian market to those living in Gedur itself, so they will have the economic advantage in Ewadd.
2) Ewaddian youth will have the right to join the Gedurian army to make their fortune, and, should they comport themselves with dignity and courage in a manner becoming of a Gedurian soldier, will be permitted to settle in Gedur after their term of service. As Ewadd presently lacks an army, we will magnanimously take over the question of their defense with our own so there is no need for them to raise a separate army, and they are instead encouraged to join ours. Of course, Gedurian culture will be enforced  (with a light hand at least at first) in the ranks and integration thereto will be a condition of promotion.
3) Those of the Ewaddian landed elite who wish to live under the splendor of Gedurian culture will have the right to migrate to Gedur upon payment of a modest fee. Unlike our own migrants in Ewadd, we will distribute them throughout the city without allowing them to concentrate in any particular area, and the fee will be calibrated from time to time in order to limit them to a minority of less than a third or so of our own native elite. They will be encouraged to adopt Gedurian culture, their children will be permitted (that is to say, strongly encouraged) to marry into the Gedurian native elite, and, of course, Gedurian families will be allowed to inherit from Ewaddian ancestors.
4) Members of the Gedurian landed elite, including those of Ewaddian descent, will have the right to be received in the Ewaddian court, should they visit Ewadd for any reason, with the pomp due to their station. Of course the same right will be extended to Ewaddians in Gedur, but, as we are a larger and therefore ostensibly grander city, we will implicitly expect more pomp for our own elite than the reverse. Should this prove a drain on the Ewaddian treasury, our own merchants and tradesmen operating in Ewadd will be happy to offer reasonable loans, I am sure.
5) Ewaddian maidens will have the right to come to Gedur seeking Gedurian husbands. This will naturally be necessary since a proportion of Ewaddian young men were removed by way of point 2. Gedurian men will have to pay a small fee for permission to marry Ewaddian women, which will be calibrated from time to time to keep the level of Ewaddian immigration low; and the fee will be reduced for men who already have Gedurian wives, provided they have more Gedurian than Ewaddian. Ewaddian men living in Gedur due to any of the other items in the list will not be permitted to bring in new Ewaddian wives in this (or any) way, barring exceptional circumstances, but will of course be encouraged to marry any good Gedurian girls who will have them.
6) Needless to say, all Ewaddian immigrants in Gedur will be encouraged to adopt Gedurian culture and pass it to their children, and their children will be encouraged to marry full-blooded Gedurians and disseminate through Gedur rather than concentrating anywhere as an ethnic minority. Anyone of fully Ewaddian ancestry maintaining Ewaddian culture will also not be permitted to own Gedurian land, although, since the landed elite ought to be quite small in this time period, I don't expect this to come up at all anyway. All residents of Gedur will be encouraged to think of themselves as Gedurians, as will all Gedurians in Ewadd.
7) In no circumstance should Ewaddian immigrants to Gedur be allowed to outnumber Gedurian emigrants to Ewadd. We should maintain a flexible target of about half as many. All migrants on both sides will be guaranteed the full rights and franchise permitted to citizens of their town of domicile.
8) From time to time, Gedur may choose to make investments in Ewadd for the good of both peoples - perhaps building granaries, or new walls, or mills, or what have you. Such investments will be understood to remain Gedurian property, with any fees for their use, etc., being due to the Gedurian crown; after all, we must be free to act in the interest of our shared prosperity.

Matters pertaining to our internal policy, like the encouragement of cultural assimilation, though, the Ewaddian delegation don't need to know about. They should only be told about what their own people's rights and ours will be under the new system.

In this way, the flow of Gedurians into Ewadd will be made up of the affluent and established who are more likely to maintain Gedurian culture, serve as Gedurian cultural ambassadors to Ewadd, and gain political influence in support of Gedurian interest, while the flow of Ewaddians into Gedur will largely be the young and impressionable placed in a position of implicit subjection, as well as that portion of the elite willing to subject themselves to whatever Gedurian court grandeur may be. (Hopefully it is better than Ewaddian.) The overall effect is to position Gedur as the superior city culturally, militarily, and economically, so the influence will flow from us to them and whatever conservative remnant in Ewadd resists Gedurization can increasingly be marginalized over time. In time, if we can make ourselves impressive enough, even the full-blooded Ewaddian youth living in Ewadd would come to see themselves as Gedurian, and avenues for their integration into Gedur should be expanded - as long as avenues for Gedurian settlement in Ewadd are also expanded.

In principle, Ewaddians are offered quite a lot of privileges by this plan, so unless they are far-sighted enough to perceive the implied extinction of their culture, it seems unlikely that they would reject it. It technically includes their full demands - Ewaddian "independence" and Gedurian military support - and can even be sealed with a marriage if there is a good available candidate. But in time, it entails their complete subjugation. I assert this proposal to be option E, for Ewaddia delenda est.
Also, I think it's just a lot more narratively interesting.

+1 to this
Logged
We're talking about partially sapient undead spaghetti here, you can probably instruct it to only strangle specific diners.

Ixarys

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: SPAM_CITY-STATE: Tyrant Gezhugimiluk of Gedur!
« Reply #160 on: May 19, 2024, 12:11:56 pm »

Instead of the classic tributary system, you offer a "subsidiary alliance". As you expose your conditions, most grow increasingly curious, while a few ones get livid as they fear for the autonomy of the city.
After you end your speech, a quick debate happens amongst the envoys.

Quote
Diplomatic roll: 1D20 - 2 (power balance) - 2 (apparently reasonable offer) = 1! (Critical Success) (twice in a row, you lucky boys)

The few skepticals are quickly shunned by the others, too mesmerized by the possibilities offered to them. They enthusiastically thank you and promise bringing your offer to the city’s council.

What is said is done, and a formal agreement is pronounced two days later. Officials will deal with the details.

However, this rise another question: will you march up towards Nenubilanur or consider the campaign done?

A) Nenubilanur will pay!
B) Ewadd is a fair enough reward. We shall stop there.
Logged

NUKE9.13

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: SPAM_CITY-STATE: Tyrant Gezhugimiluk of Gedur!
« Reply #161 on: May 19, 2024, 01:30:58 pm »

Especially since Ewadd will not be directly providing us tribute or taxes, and given we very specifically refrained from looting the surrounding area, we should probably keep going so we can actually get some material compensation.

A
Logged
Long Live United Forenia!

Maximum Spin

  • Bay Watcher
  • [OPPOSED_TO_LIFE] [GOES_TO_ELEVEN]
    • View Profile
Re: SPAM_CITY-STATE: Tyrant Gezhugimiluk of Gedur!
« Reply #162 on: May 19, 2024, 03:08:36 pm »

A
Logged

Prophet

  • Bay Watcher
  • Cultist and Heretic
    • View Profile
Re: SPAM_CITY-STATE: Tyrant Gezhugimiluk of Gedur!
« Reply #163 on: May 20, 2024, 12:02:36 am »

B
Logged
.... You've doomed us all. Granted. Everyone except for traps are executed. Random sci-fi nonsense is required to be taught in schools.
A cute intersex harem with everyone in love with the androgynous king and smart and useful enough into pushing the kingdom forward.

ZBridges

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: SPAM_CITY-STATE: Tyrant Gezhugimiluk of Gedur!
« Reply #164 on: May 20, 2024, 03:53:34 am »

A
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13