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Author Topic: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0  (Read 103058 times)

Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #675 on: June 07, 2023, 01:53:37 pm »

They've made the land they hope to take less valuable for them if they do take it, but Russia has demonstrated a willingness to be "king of the ashes" before.

Russia already understood that it won't control this area. At best, it will be an area of constant warfare and that brings no profit.

There is nothing but a huge win for Russia here, they caused colossal economic damage to their enemy. 10-20% of Ukrainian agriculture won't function for many years. Using Dnipro for transporting grain to Black Sea ports will also be problematic
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They ought to be pitied! They are already on a course for self-destruction! They do not need help from us. We need to redress our wounds, help our people, rebuild our cities!

Starver

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #676 on: June 07, 2023, 04:31:13 pm »

BBC's 10 O'clock News had the flooding feature as almost all the first ten minutes of its half-hour slot, then coverage of our own politics (leading with our foreign policy, w.r.t. Ukraine, though based upon Rishi's visit to Washington and further issues he's talking about) until quarter-past.

...then onto Prince Hal's court case against the press.

So I think we're still interested/concerned.



The BBC's language has indeed 'equally' reported the Russian counter-narritive, but pretty much always with the caveat of "as usual..." and "without providing any evidence". And tends to explain if what Kiev says can or cannot be confirmed, as well, to be fair, but there's rarely the same scope for complaint.

We have had the Russian Ambassador/others talk to us through our news channels, in interviews, but almost always they just come off looking like a try-hard under the thumb of their leadership, attempting to show how much they're following the Party line demanded from back home. Yet ending up just being unconvincingly combative in responding to pretty standard laser-guided fact-based questioning.



...aaaaand, Russia's back in the news at 20 minutes in (cyberhacks of business details of companies that seem all to start with the first two letters of the alphabet - including the BBC).
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brewer bob

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #677 on: June 07, 2023, 04:33:50 pm »

10-20% of Ukrainian agriculture won't function for many years.

And this will have global implications.

jipehog

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #678 on: June 07, 2023, 05:57:26 pm »

10-20% of Ukrainian agriculture won't function for many years.

And this will have global implications.
Interestingly, there was just a report of ammonia pipeline being hit, which is used in agriculture as fertilizer..
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jipehog

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #679 on: June 08, 2023, 03:41:38 am »

Some personal news - My brother's self-propelled howitzer Gvozdika was damaged beyond repair by a Russian suicide drone yesterday. Luckily the crew wasn't anywhere near.
I'm glad to hear your brother is ok, did he get a new flower?
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Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #680 on: June 08, 2023, 07:38:18 am »

Some personal news - My brother's self-propelled howitzer Gvozdika was damaged beyond repair by a Russian suicide drone yesterday. Luckily the crew wasn't anywhere near.
I'm glad to hear your brother is ok, did he get a new flower?

For now, their battery will have a more relaxed schedule with more crews rotating through the remaining guns.
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They ought to be pitied! They are already on a course for self-destruction! They do not need help from us. We need to redress our wounds, help our people, rebuild our cities!

scriver

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #681 on: June 08, 2023, 10:20:45 am »

Glad he wasn't around when it happened
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martinuzz

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #682 on: June 08, 2023, 11:08:54 am »

True hero here. He looks genuinly happy to be able to save some living beings there, instead of having to kill fellow humans.
Apart from that, judging by his professional neck fur hold, he is either a vet, an animal shelter volunteer, or someone who grew up with cats.

https://img.volkskrant.nl/e4b059f0b48c2424e96d73cda188d0ba6e5e9d20/damdoorbraak-oekraine-is-ecocide-lekkende-olie-rottende-bomen-verdronken-dieren.webp

Sending the guy some crossed fingers that he will live through the war.
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jipehog

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #683 on: June 08, 2023, 10:51:14 pm »

Is that a kid going to school? Just compare that with the sheltered kids in N.America.
https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/az2Z89Z_460svav1.mp4
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King Zultan

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #684 on: June 09, 2023, 01:58:18 am »

Show how much damage was caused by the dam blowing up?
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Starver

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #685 on: June 09, 2023, 05:18:00 am »

A lot, with a lot more yet to come? Ok, so it seems(?) that the dam has escaped being entirely self-scoured away, which has prevented a full on escape of water (or as nearly full on as a hundred or so km of backwater, at its widest above 10km in width, and of an average depth I've not looked into, can possibly have escaped... it's not Fortress-water with teleporting to the front, even). Instead it's as if the most insane dam-manager has opened two to four times as many outflow gates as he actually had available to him. Which is bad enough, creating a new lake downstream that's more than even the traditional flood plain might become after the worst (pre-dam) upstream rainfall accumulation.

So far, it has reached its peak, from what I've seen, so the floodwaters probably won't rise more (perhaps a bit more at the outlet into the sea, due to natural lag), but the tap being turned on like it has is going to be a constant pressure on architecture and natural landscape currently inundated with more than a few centimetres of flowing water (water is dense, and has momentum - and more water constraining it from flowing sideways - so stationary things like buildings and trees are going to be under pressure by any flow striving to go through where they happen to be) going to be under strains they were never built/grown to handle... Plus be now sodden.

If the current "constant rapids" going through the gap starts to significantly shift even more of the dam structure (and/or move and set off any as yet unexploded mines previously laid around it, creating other opportunistic points for water to swirl in depressions and start to gouge more of the structure away) then the tap gets turned on progressively more than even now, which might mean different things to those below (where the inundated river is now a wide flood-plain lake, it'll take a lot to raise the level by even a little/creep a little way more up onto the current dry highground; any geographic pinches will suffer more, though, as the additional accumulation of flow finds its options more limited and it bunches up again). If it gets gradually scoured to the very dam-edges (one imagines the construction wasn't made into valley sides significantly weaker than the man-made structure, but it has been known!) it'll likely get no worse downstream, time-delayed by distance, than with that peak outflow, but it'll be bad enough.

And then the wait (in normal times, though most people will still have... well... war-problems to deal with) as the upper lake empties sigbificantly and the flow becomes much closer to 'normal' river at spate (but some draining away of the inundation will start, as it hits a dynamic equilibreum with the current conditions).

In peacetime, it'd be nigh on impossible to repair the dam any time soon. Helidropped mega-sandbags can work on smaller structural defects (e.g. this and this near manor incidents), to stabilise matters, but the raw logistics in the case of this breach are way beyond that. Perhaps deliberately grounding/scuttling barges across the gap might be tried, but too many variables (too wide a gap for a single vessel, the water dynamics might mean extra scouring round the edges/underneath any vessel, risk of impacting the dam wall and dislodging more of its weakened structure, risk of the vessel(s) just twisting through the gap and becoming an additional downstream hazard ...at least until it hits something else fairly solid), and I have no idea what the depth is (originally or, more importantly, now) immediately upstream of the breach. And... you know... with the very opposite of cooperation being possible, I don't even imagine there'll be many expert assessments made (overflying camera-drones are being shot at, obviously!).


Really, the sum total of the damage is massive but will have to be totted up much later. That's just the 'conventional' flooding issue, minus issues of loss of water to ZNP/Crimea and whatever regional agriculture was still occuring beyond the actual face-off zone. It probably distupts plans for both sides' militaries (for both attack and defence contingencies), either locally or forcing extra attention elsewhere because it 'simplifies' the issues in the affected areas by sheer exclusion, and even if the breach was a deliberate military act (the most charitable interpretation I've seen is that mere 'bridge denial' demolition went seriously wrong, or mines that had been laid on the bankings shifted and went off in waterlogged ground to trigger yet more damage), I doubt the plan was for things to turn out like this. Dam breaches are a blunt instrument, not exactly a Nazgul-foiling masterstroke of planning.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #686 on: June 09, 2023, 06:10:11 am »

Show how much damage was caused by the dam blowing up?

 Where do I start

1) Hundreds dead (Russia never cared to start evacuation on the left bank, also they constantly shell evacuation on the right bank)
2) Tens of thousands lost their homes
3) Many, many billions worth of direct economic damage
4) Countless animals dying in the flood
5) Significant long-term pollution of the delta of Dnipro and the Black Sea
6) ~2M people will have reduced access to drinking water
7) Various industries including a NPP will also lose access to water
8) No serious navigation on Dnipro any time soon (it is absent now because of the war but it won't come back... our poor roads...)
8) 10-30% (estimates wary) of the Ukrainian agricultural sector is lost for many years until the dam is repaired and the lake is refilled or some alternative means of irrigation will be developed
9) Complete destruction of the lake ecosystem that took decades to establish

And so on.
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They ought to be pitied! They are already on a course for self-destruction! They do not need help from us. We need to redress our wounds, help our people, rebuild our cities!

jipehog

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #687 on: June 09, 2023, 11:07:33 pm »

Interesting hypothesis, that Russian Dam destruction was caused through structural collapse. Tough I think he makes a lot of assumption along the way, and after the fact omniscient narrator. There are certainly many other plausible explanations amidst the fog of war.

For example: even if we assume failure, it need not be an either or scenario. With offensive action ramping up we it was clear that Ukranian counteroffensive is coming, many floated the possibility that Ukraine would launch an amphibious assault there on that day, June 6 the anniversary of D-Day. It is possible that Russian forces have mined the dam in case of such eventuality, and upon hearing the explosion sound from the dam assumed its an attack panicked and press the button causing its destruction. And this is the most mild scenario I can think off.

Looks like the USA far right are ridding on this, with tucker carlson launching his shitshow on this topic, with his usual BS

-----

Speaking of the fog of war, while many on the Ukrainian side choose to stay silent on the Counteroffensive like last time Russia wages informational campaign try to asserts that Ukrainian counter offensive already failed, which ended with humiliating defeats for Russia. For people who waged an offensive for month and suffering over 100K casualties in just Bakhmut they are really brazen about their claims.
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martinuzz

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #689 on: June 12, 2023, 08:24:29 pm »

Ukraine warns people that with the breaking of the Kachovka dam, huge amounts of landmines have gone drifting with the water, reaching up to Odesa, 200km away from the dam breach (6 landmines washed up there).
In the water, explosions are seen and heard from mines colliding with objects, and they can be expected to even wash up at beaches of the Black Sea.
People are warned to not clean up any flooding debris, and to also be really careful at the Black Sea beaches when cleaning up flood debris. Even though those beaches are used to sea mines washing ashore by now, landmines are much less obvious than sea mines.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2023, 08:26:15 pm by martinuzz »
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479
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