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Author Topic: A modder, and mod-user, rant  (Read 4429 times)

Rochndil

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A modder, and mod-user, rant
« on: April 14, 2010, 09:18:47 am »

Good morning!

I've been meaning to post this for a bit, but RL has been keeping me too busy. I'm also working on testing the new (and frequent!) updates to DF 2010, which really cuts into my modding time.

That said, I'd like to start a discussion about something important for modders, and mod-users.

I make my own mods (MMO conversion is underway, for those who care), and I also use mods from many of the other talented and creative modders who post their creations here and on DFFD. I have the highest respect for people willing to devote their time and creative energies to make MY game more fun, and for free no less!

But there are some simple things that could be done to make this process easier and smoother for new users, and experienced modders alike.

Here are my thoughts, and discussion is freely encouraged.

1. Please include a readme.txt with EVERY mod file posted. It's extremely easy to separate a mod archive from the header information that describes it, leaving you with a mod that you're not QUITE sure what it does. The readme doesn't have to be encyclopedic, especially if you want some "HFS" in there of your own, but a quick summary of the concept, at least, as well as your ownership info, would be very helpful. I've got dozens of 40D and older mods that I just don't know WHAT they do, or who made them, since the creators failed to include that critical information. Related to that, make sure that you always give proper credit for the ideas and content you've stol...err, incorporated, into your mods! Proper credit makes for happy creators, and happy creators make more cool mods!

2. If you are adding content, create NEW files, don't use existing files. This is especially important right now, when the canonical files (from Toady) are being updated on a weekly basis. If, for example, you add a new weapon to item_weapon.txt, and then two days later Toady uploads a new DF version, any user who uses your mod runs the risk of backdating over his changes/improvements.

3. Now, obviously, if you are CHANGING existing content, modifying the standard files is necessary. In this case, a readme file (see above) is even more important, as well as in-file comments clearly indicating what has been changed. This makes it possible for users to either carry your changes forward into new versions, OR merge them with OTHER changes to the same file.

4. Only include relevant files in your archive. I can't count the number of times I've downloaded mods where the user just took the total contents of their raw/objects folder and distributed it (usually with no documentation). If, for some strange reason, you actually DID change every single one of these files, fine. But usually only a few changes have actually been made, and sending irrelevant files can cause major problems down the road.

5. Test your mods before distributing them, and make sure that you're either NOT generating any error messages, OR document any you are generating, and why. An experienced modder will probably be able to fix anything you distribute that's broken, but many new(er) users won't be able to (easily).

6. Be careful to follow standard (Toady-approved) file use and directory structure. Adding appropriate sub-directories (such as under graphics) is fine, and can actually help keep your content organized effectively. For a major mod, keeping different types of content in appropriate files (ammo in item_ammo_mymod, armor in item_armor_mymod) is logical, and helps the user find any of your content if necessary, but for smaller mods combining compatible items (items_mymod) probably makes more sense, to avoid having a dozen sub-1-k files to archive.

7. Always remember that while your mod may be totally great and awesome, it's also quite likely to be used alongside OTHER equally great and awesome mods. Keeping your files, clean, unique, and as compact as possible, along with appropriate explanations, will dramatically reduce inter-mod conflicts, as well as making SOLVING the ones that inevitably crop up much simpler.

8. For really complex mods, give careful thought to using one of the mod-merging utilities, such as Uristmod, to allow your content to be merged into existing files.  Again, the utility of such an approach depends on the scale of your changes. If you're altering a given file SO much that little of the original content remains, it's probably more sensible to just include the altered file.

9. Be MOST careful about changes to key files like creature_standard and entity_default, since these are the places OTHER folks are most likely to be making changes also.

10. Have fun! That's what it's all about after all. If you have a question, or aren't sure about something, ask. It's almost a certainty someone here will be able to help you, and if a simple questions prevents a formatting/conflict issue, everybody will benefit in the long run.

I fully understand that not everyone here is a professional documentation specialist (like me), and that most mods won't include an obsessively detailed list of changes and information. BUT, I do think that a little more effort put forth by the community, especially NOW when, as they say, everything old is new again, would help make inter-modding conflicts a lot less frequent and annoying.

As always, I'm happy to have my ideas discussed/commented on. Feel free to post, positively or otherwise.

Rochndil, back to mangling reaction_smelter.txt...
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Deon

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Re: A modder, and mod-user, rant
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2010, 09:21:33 am »

There're some good points, however many changes touch existing raws so you cannot put them in the separate files.

Also not everyone has a time to write a separate readme. For example, my mod and Kobold Camp are the only current major mods (well, community weapon balance is a modd too, but it's constantly changing and is around the same things so there's no real need in readme) and if you look at 1st posts, they list almost all the features.

So if you have a rant, address SPECIFIC mods which you do not like. Because your thread will be on page 10 in no time and noone will ever find it again.

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Rochndil, back to mangling reaction_smelter.txt...
MAKE A SEPARATE FILE >:(.

:D
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soul4hdwn

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Re: A modder, and mod-user, rant
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2010, 09:53:09 am »

think to either add to the list or to counter a point.

some files can't be merged or mixed, that or which ones can or not?  the items_whatever is easy question but more like body parts and creature file or some other mix of files.

there's a modder program somewhere that can, with relative safeness, modify tags into existing raw files with ease and backing up.  only problem is it is being cleaned up for easier usage and compatibility.
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Greiger

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Re: A modder, and mod-user, rant
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2010, 09:54:04 am »

I agree completely with the OP. 

Except for a "I haven't tried it" response for Uristmod.  I never really had much trouble keeping my files organized, and editing raws my hand.  Which, from what I understand is what it does.
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Trouserman

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Re: A modder, and mod-user, rant
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2010, 10:12:09 am »

Also not everyone has a time to write a separate readme. For example, my mod and Kobold Camp are the only current major mods (well, community weapon balance is a modd too, but it's constantly changing and is around the same things so there's no real need in readme) and if you look at 1st posts, they list almost all the features.

I cannot agree.  If you have time to create and test a mod, you have time to write a readme.  If you have time to post about your mod, you have time to write a readme.  Just copy and paste, at the very least.  Having the information in the first post of your thread's mod is not a solution, because it is disconnected with the mod contents on the user's hard drive.  It is not always possible to even identify a mod, and tracking down the thread can be a hassle even if you do identify it.  Please be kind to your users and save them this trouble.
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Rochndil

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Re: A modder, and mod-user, rant
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2010, 12:53:09 pm »

Good afternoon!

So if you have a rant, address SPECIFIC mods which you do not like. Because your thread will be on page 10 in no time and noone will ever find it again.

Actually, that is the LAST thing I intend to do. Picking apart someone else's hard work is usually a quick way to piss them off and drive them away from modding, or posting, again. The last thing we want to do is drive AWAY modders.

The intent of this message is to offer some constructive suggestions to the modding community as a whole, and perhaps make someone think, just before hitting that "submit" button, about adding those last, critical, touches to make their mods more user-friendly.

Nobody is perfect, and I'm quite sure that many of these same problems, that have always existed, will continue to exist going forward. BUT, if nobody ever says anything about it, improvement will be slow, if it ever happens at all.

Rochndil, who is slowly working on a test version of the MMO, which may crash and burn with pretty colors...
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Re: A modder, and mod-user, rant
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2010, 01:17:02 pm »

A full readme file isn't absolutely necessary in all cases, but comments in the file and a bit more detail in the forum thread would definitely be nice.
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: A modder, and mod-user, rant
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2010, 01:34:38 pm »

*looks up, frowns, then returns to working on Clean Slate*
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profit

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Re: A modder, and mod-user, rant
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2010, 02:01:55 pm »

I think the read-me idea is not a horrible one... maybe something along the lines of this could constitute a minimal one...


Code: [Select]
This is profits stone annihilator mod.

It allows you to destroy stone.

Install:
#1 Back up your files in the raw\objects folder.
#2 Unzip the archive into the raw\objects folder overwriting the files there.
#3 Generate a new world.

It changes these files:
building_custom.txt
entity_default.txt
inorganic_stone_layer.txt
inorganic_stone_mineral.txt
reaction_other.txt

Enjoy the mod!


That wasn't so hard.  And now I have a read-me for my mod.


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Re: A modder, and mod-user, rant
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2010, 02:26:07 pm »

I think I do several of these in Direforged, but yeah, I'm guilty of not yet having a readme, though it's not really big yet. My first post in the thread would probably suffice. I think Teldin mentioned that he puts a T_ in front of every of his identifiers, which also helps with integration of other mods.
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Deon

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Re: A modder, and mod-user, rant
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2010, 03:18:20 pm »

I could sound as a dick with my "counter-post", but I actually agree. For me it would take some time to organize all the files, so if I started to work in a more "organized" way it would definitely help. I plan to reorganize my "genesis mod" files at some point, it's just exams and the family which stop me from doing it right now.
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Ramirez

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Re: A modder, and mod-user, rant
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2010, 05:10:59 pm »

Hmm, half of those points are either impossible of unreasonably impractical for a total conversion mod. It's a bit pointless to work in new files and not include regular unmodified files when the majority of vanilla raws are deleted/not referenced/unused in a mod. Readme texts are always nice, and the guidelines should be applied to most regular mods for ease of user-modding and integration with other mods though.
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Rhenaya

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Re: A modder, and mod-user, rant
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2010, 05:55:46 pm »

i add an small readme that includes the tag that needed to be placed in existing files, else i just use my own files...

as examples view: http://dffd.wimbli.com/who.php?id=554

it includes a minor creature mod with graphics (all new files)
and a smelting mod (using existing stones/ore and a new metal) and a readme with the tags you need to inject into your entity

also i am just starting to mod at all and just make micro (minor) mods (for example a single file with a entry for a tower shield) to keep them apart.
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LegoLord

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Re: A modder, and mod-user, rant
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2010, 06:25:18 pm »

Hmm, half of those points are either impossible of unreasonably impractical for a total conversion mod. It's a bit pointless to work in new files and not include regular unmodified files when the majority of vanilla raws are deleted/not referenced/unused in a mod. Readme texts are always nice, and the guidelines should be applied to most regular mods for ease of user-modding and integration with other mods though.
Some of the points accounted for that problem.   This addresses unnecessary placement of new raws in default files - in total conversion mods, it is necessary.

This is a good idea, I think.  I've even started putting the initials "LL" in the file names for my most recent project - for example, "creature_LL_clown.txt" - in the event that someone else creates a similar mod or a mod that also involves clowns.
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Tellemurius

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Re: A modder, and mod-user, rant
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2010, 06:37:52 pm »

lol everyine figuring out their mistakes and correcting them, at least i included a readme with my mod cause i know idiots will start giving me some stupid questions and i also know i will get stupid questions anyway cause the idiots didn't even bother to read it.
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