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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page  (Read 1492792 times)

Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2385 on: December 03, 2010, 01:40:32 pm »

Oh yeah, I also can't wait to see what the NPC dwarven hamlets and fortresses will look like now.

I'd settle for them existing at all in the game world.  Mountain halls (or dwarf pits or whatever the term is) show up on the map in the current version, but there's nothing at the site.
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EmeraldWind

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2386 on: December 03, 2010, 01:47:25 pm »

Are these trade routes literally routes or are they abstracted representation of the trade network?

More specifically, I'm asking if the caravans will follow the 'routes' as paths or are the 'routes' a simple representation of the fact the two locations are trading.

I see all the trade routes are straight lines.  Some of these lines go over water, but even though the water route represents the shortest path there is a perfectly fine 'land-based route' for land-based caravans to take.  Granted, this only matters if it is possible to bump into the caravans in transit.     
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Jiri Petru

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2387 on: December 03, 2010, 03:00:10 pm »

Some of these lines go over water, but even though the water route represents the shortest path there is a perfectly fine 'land-based route' for land-based caravans to take.

Just a side note...
...in history, sea and river trade was preferred to land trade, not the other way around. Ships have many advantages over wagons, the two main ones being: 1) It's much safer that way, pirates tend to be less frequent and easier to run from than bandits, 2) you can ship heavy, bulk loads, something not possible with wagons (caravans bringing huge amounts of wood like in current DF are absurdly unreal). Then, to a lesser degree, 3) by going over the sea, you skip many taxation opportunities (normally taxes would be paid on "country" borders, but also bridges, ferries, city gates...). In your example, noone would bother to take the land route.

If you look at real history, coastal areas were always the richest, and the biggest cities formed next to the seas. It is no accident that the major civilisations developed in areas that have easy access to sea trade (the Mediterranean, the Sea of Japan) and that the land-locked areas (Russia...) or areas dependent on ocean waters, which are difficult to travel (Africa), staid underdeveloped.

I'm wondering if Toady intends to put some emphasis on ports and coastal cities.

EDIT: Looking over the screenshots again, it seems like humans indeed are attracted to the sea.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 03:06:10 pm by Jiri Petru »
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tfaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2388 on: December 03, 2010, 04:09:42 pm »

Yeah, we really should see some ports and fishing villages popping up along the coast. Ports are especially important, since they enable much greater capacities of trade and are natural points of cultural congregation.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2389 on: December 03, 2010, 05:17:21 pm »

Yeah and they are perfect sources for diseases as soon we get them. 
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2390 on: December 03, 2010, 05:18:19 pm »

Yeah and they are perfect sources for diseases as soon we get them.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2391 on: December 03, 2010, 05:18:35 pm »

Oh yeah, I also can't wait to see what the NPC dwarven hamlets and fortresses will look like now.

I'd settle for them existing at all in the game world.  Mountain halls (or dwarf pits or whatever the term is) show up on the map in the current version, but there's nothing at the site.

I dont expect any changes made towards Gobbo, elves or dorfs.
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TurnpikeLad

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2392 on: December 03, 2010, 05:58:21 pm »


Just a side note...
...in history, sea and river trade was preferred to land trade, not the other way around. Ships have many advantages over wagons, the two main ones being: 1) It's much safer that way, pirates tend to be less frequent and easier to run from than bandits, 2) you can ship heavy, bulk loads, something not possible with wagons (caravans bringing huge amounts of wood like in current DF are absurdly unreal). Then, to a lesser degree, 3) by going over the sea, you skip many taxation opportunities (normally taxes would be paid on "country" borders, but also bridges, ferries, city gates...). In your example, noone would bother to take the land route.

If you look at real history, coastal areas were always the richest, and the biggest cities formed next to the seas. It is no accident that the major civilisations developed in areas that have easy access to sea trade (the Mediterranean, the Sea of Japan) and that the land-locked areas (Russia...) or areas dependent on ocean waters, which are difficult to travel (Africa), staid underdeveloped.


This is true but land-based trade was also always a big factor, for example, look at the Silk Road which went overland all the way from Turkey to China.  Land-based trade is viable over great distances when you're transporting small amounts of highly valuable stuff, especially if sea travel is inconvenient.
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Quatch

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2393 on: December 03, 2010, 06:29:21 pm »

Quote from: Jiri Petru
EDIT: Looking over the screenshots again, it seems like humans indeed are attracted to the sea.
[/quote

Probably a result of the coastal correlation with elevation and the elev. correlation with plains
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2394 on: December 03, 2010, 06:38:44 pm »

Quote from: Jiri Petru
EDIT: Looking over the screenshots again, it seems like humans indeed are attracted to the sea.
[/quote

Probably a result of the coastal correlation with elevation and the elev. correlation with plains

Nah. If you look at the raws humans are now much more likely to expand out to ocean and river tiles than they were before. Especially the Ocean (12 vs 2 or 3 for plains)

Code: [Select]
[START_BIOME:ANY_GRASSLAND]
[START_BIOME:ANY_SAVANNA]
[START_BIOME:ANY_SHRUBLAND]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_WETLAND:1]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_DESERT:1]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_FOREST:2]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_OCEAN:12]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_LAKE:3]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_GRASSLAND:3]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_SAVANNA:2]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_SHRUBLAND:2]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_RIVER:4]
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Untelligent

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2395 on: December 03, 2010, 06:40:49 pm »

Nah, they're just coded that way. Humans have higher biome support numbers for oceans/rivers/lakes than any other race: lakes are at 3, rivers are at 4, and oceans in particular are at an astounding 12. No other race has biome supports higher than 3.

EDIT: ninja'd. Ah well.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 06:42:36 pm by Untelligent »
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EmeraldWind

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2396 on: December 03, 2010, 07:32:47 pm »

Some of these lines go over water, but even though the water route represents the shortest path there is a perfectly fine 'land-based route' for land-based caravans to take.

Just a side note...
...in history, sea and river trade was preferred to land trade, not the other way around. Ships have many advantages over wagons, the two main ones being: 1) It's much safer that way, pirates tend to be less frequent and easier to run from than bandits, 2) you can ship heavy, bulk loads, something not possible with wagons (caravans bringing huge amounts of wood like in current DF are absurdly unreal). Then, to a lesser degree, 3) by going over the sea, you skip many taxation opportunities (normally taxes would be paid on "country" borders, but also bridges, ferries, city gates...). In your example, noone would bother to take the land route.

If you look at real history, coastal areas were always the richest, and the biggest cities formed next to the seas. It is no accident that the major civilisations developed in areas that have easy access to sea trade (the Mediterranean, the Sea of Japan) and that the land-locked areas (Russia...) or areas dependent on ocean waters, which are difficult to travel (Africa), staid underdeveloped.

I'm wondering if Toady intends to put some emphasis on ports and coastal cities.

EDIT: Looking over the screenshots again, it seems like humans indeed are attracted to the sea.

I was merely pointing out a couple land-based routes looked more convenient than a straight shoot across the sea.  Take a look at the small island map in Threetoe's update.  There's right most white square about a quarter of the map from the bottom.  The green line goes across the sea in a rather inconvenient spot and land-based travel would save the time and energy needed to load the ships and unload the ships, but the same square's yellow connections are much more sea worthy routes. But also here the yellow route heading south-west is going through land when it would be best pathing through the sea altogether.  I'm not saying to prefer one type of travel over the other, but sometimes traveling completely by land or completely by sea is better than following the straight lines.  Also notice how close two of the end points of the green routes on that square are. If using a land-based route the caravan can in theory make a round trip to all three points and then return to their home, as opposed to taking three separate trips for each node.
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iceball3

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2397 on: December 03, 2010, 07:45:10 pm »

I actually think that the straight lines are more to make understanding trade connections easier, rather than actually lining out the actual route
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Knigel

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2398 on: December 03, 2010, 07:59:50 pm »

I assume roads will be effected by trade routs, right?

The dev blog mentions implementing boats, even if they just serve as jumps from one point to another.

If in adventure mode we kill all the farms that feed into a town will the town suffer?

Before you get your hopes up, you should keep in mind that the enormous abstract entity populations means killing all the farms will be nigh-impossible
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Shadowfury333

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2399 on: December 03, 2010, 08:08:59 pm »

I'm not sure if I missed something but:

Are there plans to be able to have multiple embarks at once, and to be able to zoom from fort view to world view and back on any of these embarks? An example of this would be in the old Accolade game Deadlock, though that was provinces instead of embarks, but a similar idea.
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