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Author Topic: [0.44.12+] Fortress Defense Mod II R v21: Progress Trigger and Bug Fixes!  (Read 310986 times)

fearlesslittletoaster

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I would say, with regards to a nerf, that this is much more a question of what you want the mod to be about than the merits of GFS as an individual opponent race. What I love about Fortress Defense (FD) is the way the game is constantly throwing new problems at me. What I hate about FD is how some of those problems are beyond the ability of my current play style to solve. As a long time DF player I'm used to goblins... which become something of a joke once you have a capable military. In FD (for my current fort where not all races are available) this is true of some races (Raptor men, Furies, Blendacs) but not others (Hellfire Imps, GFS, Ruthererturs).

I like the idea of having enemies visit who will just wreck my shit if I fight them like goblins. That adds a new dimension to the game that is badly lacking in vanilla. Other races, imps and rutherertaurs, present serious challenges but they can be taken care of through careful planning and lots of preparation. Imps are just stupid dangerous due to fire. At least with the civ in my current world the rutherertaurs show up in sieges of 100+, which is enough to overwhelm almost any number of dwarves. Extensive testing has shown that in an open fight those kind of numbers coupled with the other things rutherertaurs having going will just keep trucking until every military dwarf is dead. This is cool and fun because it gives me a chance to break them into smaller groups and take them apart, like how with imps crossbows and whatnot become important.

The problem with GFS is not so much that they are very dangerous, but rather that there is not really a way around that. Webs make them brutal, and no matter how you stage the battle this won't change. This isn't bad really just a bit frustrating at times. The player has the choice of either locking the doors and waiting them out, or dying. A third option, one I haven't set up yet, is the "wall of traps that kills anything ever" which is a highly effective defense but because of how the game works also a bit overpowered. A hall of doors that lets me break them into groups of one or two does basically the same thing as five hundred steel spikes hooked to a lever; it simply crushes the problem with engineering since GFS are helpless against doors.

So the question to you as the mod developer is what you want out of your hostile races. I take losses from fighting lesser attackers on the open ground. A hundred furies versus twenty dwarves means one fury is going to get lucky and I as the player have to deal with a loss or two. A hundred Rutherertaurs means big problems, missed migrants and caravans, and god help me if I don't get everything set up fast enough. GFS mean lock the doors or savescum. I'm working on a trap setup that will end them, but is forcing the player to rely on predictable AI pathing and the full power of traps a design goal? If so, they are working. If not, is there a way to make them more unpredictable/interesting?
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Meph

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I had a rather interesting post on reddit:
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Dostoevsky

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I was looking through the raws and I think I spotted a possible typo/bug. The readme states that elder badgermen grow to be 1.5x the size of a dwarf, but the raws currently have the age 80 size of a badgerman at 900,000 (not 90,000).
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darkflagrance

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I would say, with regards to a nerf, that this is much more a question of what you want the mod to be about than the merits of GFS as an individual opponent race. What I love about Fortress Defense (FD) is the way the game is constantly throwing new problems at me. What I hate about FD is how some of those problems are beyond the ability of my current play style to solve. As a long time DF player I'm used to goblins... which become something of a joke once you have a capable military. In FD (for my current fort where not all races are available) this is true of some races (Raptor men, Furies, Blendacs) but not others (Hellfire Imps, GFS, Ruthererturs).

I like the idea of having enemies visit who will just wreck my shit if I fight them like goblins. That adds a new dimension to the game that is badly lacking in vanilla. Other races, imps and rutherertaurs, present serious challenges but they can be taken care of through careful planning and lots of preparation. Imps are just stupid dangerous due to fire. At least with the civ in my current world the rutherertaurs show up in sieges of 100+, which is enough to overwhelm almost any number of dwarves. Extensive testing has shown that in an open fight those kind of numbers coupled with the other things rutherertaurs having going will just keep trucking until every military dwarf is dead. This is cool and fun because it gives me a chance to break them into smaller groups and take them apart, like how with imps crossbows and whatnot become important.

The problem with GFS is not so much that they are very dangerous, but rather that there is not really a way around that. Webs make them brutal, and no matter how you stage the battle this won't change. This isn't bad really just a bit frustrating at times. The player has the choice of either locking the doors and waiting them out, or dying. A third option, one I haven't set up yet, is the "wall of traps that kills anything ever" which is a highly effective defense but because of how the game works also a bit overpowered. A hall of doors that lets me break them into groups of one or two does basically the same thing as five hundred steel spikes hooked to a lever; it simply crushes the problem with engineering since GFS are helpless against doors.

So the question to you as the mod developer is what you want out of your hostile races. I take losses from fighting lesser attackers on the open ground. A hundred furies versus twenty dwarves means one fury is going to get lucky and I as the player have to deal with a loss or two. A hundred Rutherertaurs means big problems, missed migrants and caravans, and god help me if I don't get everything set up fast enough. GFS mean lock the doors or savescum. I'm working on a trap setup that will end them, but is forcing the player to rely on predictable AI pathing and the full power of traps a design goal? If so, they are working. If not, is there a way to make them more unpredictable/interesting?

I've been thinking a great deal about this post. I'm trying to get some more testing data from the GFS, but I think since I'm releasing a new update shortly, I'll reduce their difficulty and see how it goes.

I had a rather interesting post on reddit:

Thanks for bringing my attention to that post! Technically, it was intentional, because when I was experimenting with ensuring that civs spawned, I told them to spawn EVERYWHERE. I'm not sure if their armies can cross the water, but I can say that you can make waterdwelling races with the right tags. Maybe it's time I called an end to the experiment.

I was looking through the raws and I think I spotted a possible typo/bug. The readme states that elder badgermen grow to be 1.5x the size of a dwarf, but the raws currently have the age 80 size of a badgerman at 900,000 (not 90,000).

Good catch! I'll address tis.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 09:19:53 pm by darkflagrance »
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The Legend of Tholtig Cryptbrain: 8000 dead elves and a cyclops

Tired of going decades without goblin sieges? Try The Fortress Defense Mod

Meph

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Quote
I've been thinking a great deal about this post. I'm trying to get some more testing data from the GFS, but I think since I'm releasing a new update shortly, I'll reduce their difficulty and see how it goes.
I did nerf them for Masterwork, as I do all webbers: Wait period increased from 30 to 3000.

Essentially each webber gets one shot, then has to wait. Gives units the chance to break free, no stun-lock due to constant webbing.

PS:
Code: [Select]
[SYNDROME]
[SYN_NAME:serpent man bite]
[SYN_AFFECTED_CLASS:GENERAL_POISON]
[SYN_IMMUNE_CREATURE:SPIDER_CAVE:ALL]
[SYN_INJECTED]
Cave spiders are immune to Serpent man bites. ;)
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

darkflagrance

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Quote
I've been thinking a great deal about this post. I'm trying to get some more testing data from the GFS, but I think since I'm releasing a new update shortly, I'll reduce their difficulty and see how it goes.
I did nerf them for Masterwork, as I do all webbers: Wait period increased from 30 to 3000.

Essentially each webber gets one shot, then has to wait. Gives units the chance to break free, no stun-lock due to constant webbing.

PS:
Code: [Select]
[SYNDROME]
[SYN_NAME:serpent man bite]
[SYN_AFFECTED_CLASS:GENERAL_POISON]
[SYN_IMMUNE_CREATURE:SPIDER_CAVE:ALL]
[SYN_INJECTED]
Cave spiders are immune to Serpent man bites. ;)

The ALL_MAIN biome tag includes ocean tiles. Doing a universal replace of BIOME:ALL_MAIN and SUPPORT:ALL_MAIN to BIOME:ANY_LAND and SUPPORT:ANY_LAND will remove ocean dwelling, if it is undesired.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 10:52:08 pm by darkflagrance »
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The Legend of Tholtig Cryptbrain: 8000 dead elves and a cyclops

Tired of going decades without goblin sieges? Try The Fortress Defense Mod

darkflagrance

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Re: [0.43.02] Fortress Defense Mod II R v18: Bonus Race Graphics!
« Reply #966 on: May 16, 2016, 02:17:12 am »

New release for 43.0X!

---Changes for 0.18 R4

-Additional graphics for Fortress Defense Civs courtesy of dead!
-Address conflict in promised and actual Greater Badgerman size
-Nerfed web-slinging by Great Fiend Spiders, augmented their wrestling
-Fortress Defense Civs are no longer allowed to set up their own versions of Rapture under the ocean waves (ALL_MAIN -> ANY_LAND)
-Increased the range of the Spurring interaction so animals are even less afraid when accompanying Fortress Defense sieges
-Added additional skill learn rates to furies
-Renamed the custom Fortress Defense cap so that the item name would not be duplicated in stockpiles
-Nagas now immune to their own venom
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The Legend of Tholtig Cryptbrain: 8000 dead elves and a cyclops

Tired of going decades without goblin sieges? Try The Fortress Defense Mod

dead

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Weee, I contributed! Also, here are some more. I was planning on holding them up until I finish all of them, but I'm excited about the 'bigger' races. Their weapons are bigger and that shirtless giant wrestler though. Lol.

giant -
minotaur -
white tiger -
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fearlesslittletoaster

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So I'm finally getting some decent testing in on FD races spurring animals; I kept getting forts in places where I just couldn't get enough FD mercs as residents to make it happen. Also, note this is without your latest update installed.

It seems to work well. If left around animals the FD races will spur them often enough that the process can be put to planned use. I have had the best luck so far with pasturing animals I want to use in combat in the barracks. The animals do indefinitely retain the fearlessness and aggression.

The only drawback is that over time the beloved pets of my Dwarves will come in contact long enough to get spurred. I just had a goat attack a rattlesnake and die from massive necrosis because it kept fighting through a dozen bites. It seems like somebody's peacock is always charging in screaming rage at a Jabberer or something. That works out about how you would expect, but at least it helps keep FPS up!

So, with the basics of the thing worked out, I plan on performing the following tests:

1. Pit a hundred spurred cavies and toss naked goblins in. See what happens.
2. Cave Croc weaponization program. They don't seem super inclined to run anyway, so I want to see if it makes them more effective.
3. War Yaks. Lots of war Yaks. Because never not war Yaks.     

On an unrelated note do you know if FD races will marry and/or reproduce once they become citizens? My current fort is, I think, the last outpost of a fallen civilization and after two years I seem to be stuck at 16 Dwarves. No migrants, no caravans, but I'm getting plenty of visitors who want to stay. I find the idea of a Dwarven civilization rising from the ashes in the form of hundreds of naturalized badger men to be extremely entertaining, and the idea of them having kids who are all like, "what, we're just striped dwarves yo!" to be even funnier.
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darkflagrance

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So I'm finally getting some decent testing in on FD races spurring animals; I kept getting forts in places where I just couldn't get enough FD mercs as residents to make it happen. Also, note this is without your latest update installed.

It seems to work well. If left around animals the FD races will spur them often enough that the process can be put to planned use. I have had the best luck so far with pasturing animals I want to use in combat in the barracks. The animals do indefinitely retain the fearlessness and aggression.

The only drawback is that over time the beloved pets of my Dwarves will come in contact long enough to get spurred. I just had a goat attack a rattlesnake and die from massive necrosis because it kept fighting through a dozen bites. It seems like somebody's peacock is always charging in screaming rage at a Jabberer or something. That works out about how you would expect, but at least it helps keep FPS up!

So, with the basics of the thing worked out, I plan on performing the following tests:

1. Pit a hundred spurred cavies and toss naked goblins in. See what happens.
2. Cave Croc weaponization program. They don't seem super inclined to run anyway, so I want to see if it makes them more effective.
3. War Yaks. Lots of war Yaks. Because never not war Yaks.     

On an unrelated note do you know if FD races will marry and/or reproduce once they become citizens? My current fort is, I think, the last outpost of a fallen civilization and after two years I seem to be stuck at 16 Dwarves. No migrants, no caravans, but I'm getting plenty of visitors who want to stay. I find the idea of a Dwarven civilization rising from the ashes in the form of hundreds of naturalized badger men to be extremely entertaining, and the idea of them having kids who are all like, "what, we're just striped dwarves yo!" to be even funnier.

Excellent to see the training goes well. I actually increased the range of spurring a lot to see what happens in the latest version.

I have seen people test married naturalized citizens and find that they can have children who will be full-fledged fortress members. If you can get two single bards who are willing to marry and naturalize, you might be able to get a non-dwarf second generation.

Weee, I contributed! Also, here are some more. I was planning on holding them up until I finish all of them, but I'm excited about the 'bigger' races. Their weapons are bigger and that shirtless giant wrestler though. Lol.

giant -
minotaur -
white tiger -

These are also quite robust and fill out the tiles nicely with color, giving a good impression of the tankiness of the enemies! I suspect in the future many a fortress will be crushed by ginger giant beefcake ;) When you finish the rest of the series, I'll add them into the next release. Thank you for standardizing the positions of the tiles; it really makes adding new tile raws much faster.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 10:35:32 pm by darkflagrance »
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The Legend of Tholtig Cryptbrain: 8000 dead elves and a cyclops

Tired of going decades without goblin sieges? Try The Fortress Defense Mod

Meph

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I have seen people test married naturalized citizens and find that they can have children who will be full-fledged fortress members. If you can get two single bards who are willing to marry and naturalize, you might be able to get a non-dwarf second generation.
do you know if a creature can marry a different creature? Like a tigerman bard who marries a dwarf.
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

darkflagrance

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I have seen people test married naturalized citizens and find that they can have children who will be full-fledged fortress members. If you can get two single bards who are willing to marry and naturalize, you might be able to get a non-dwarf second generation.
do you know if a creature can marry a different creature? Like a tigerman bard who marries a dwarf.

As far as I know, this is impossible.
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The Legend of Tholtig Cryptbrain: 8000 dead elves and a cyclops

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Urlance Woolsbane

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I have seen people test married naturalized citizens and find that they can have children who will be full-fledged fortress members. If you can get two single bards who are willing to marry and naturalize, you might be able to get a non-dwarf second generation.
do you know if a creature can marry a different creature? Like a tigerman bard who marries a dwarf.

As far as I know, this is impossible.
The closest thing that I know of is when an already married creature is polymorped. The transformation does not prevent further children.

EDIT: At least in world-gen, that is. I've no idea how it would play out in Fortress Mode.
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darkflagrance

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I have seen people test married naturalized citizens and find that they can have children who will be full-fledged fortress members. If you can get two single bards who are willing to marry and naturalize, you might be able to get a non-dwarf second generation.
do you know if a creature can marry a different creature? Like a tigerman bard who marries a dwarf.

As far as I know, this is impossible.
The closest thing that I know of is when an already married creature is polymorped. The transformation does not prevent further children.

EDIT: At least in world-gen, that is. I've no idea how it would play out in Fortress Mode.

I guess if you really wanted to do it, you could have an interaction with invaders that turns you into them when they greet you. It would be a one-time transformation because permanently transformed creatures can no longer transform.

By the way, there is a Fortress Defense race that already does that.
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The Legend of Tholtig Cryptbrain: 8000 dead elves and a cyclops

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fearlesslittletoaster

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I may have some useful data on the disappearing army problem for you. I had several in my previous fort, and though I deleted the save to load today's release (I'm dumb, sorry!) something happened which was interesting. Two of the disappearing armies were Great Fiend Spiders... and each spider dropped a bag during the few ticks he was on the map. On a related note, I have been attacked by GFS crossbowmen without crossbows repeatedly, which leads me to think they can't hold stuff?

If so, is it possible that snatchers are being chosen as either the leaders or the entire membership of armies? If they arrive as an army they would be instantly revealed when they hit the map, and instantly flee. If GFS can't hold things then their snatchers would appear with bags, drop them, and vanish.

Also, loading up the latest release of FD onto the latest version of DF now, so more feedback on spurring is pending.
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