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Author Topic: WH40K discussion thread: from Tyran's heart I stab at thee.  (Read 964291 times)

Rolan7

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10860 on: December 02, 2018, 10:25:20 am »

I mean, if you're going to make a post that addresses so many points, this is definitely better than making a single block response...  I've always liked it.
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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10861 on: December 02, 2018, 10:45:39 am »

They like killing/enslaving them, yes. One of the first Tau/Eldar interactions was between DEldar and Tau who were being attacked by Tyranids and it's frankly hilarious.

So basically this Tau world, Vigos, was under attack and getting it's ass handed to it by Tyranids. Reinforcements from Rubikon were several weeks away and would probably not arrive in time. Then a strange chap calling himself Urien Rakarth appears and offers to help in exchange for a sample of each Tau caste to learn more about them. 77 of each non-Ethereal caste and 7 Ethereals as I recall. The Tau agree to the 77x4 but not the Ethereals.

Rakarth and his coven then unleash an army of Wracks, Grotesques and Pain Engines on the Tyranids and wreck face in tandem with the Tau, then take their payment away in their spiky horrible ships. The Tau are feeling kind skeezy about this cause the flesh monsters are creepy, but they're used to working with races they find grisly, like the Kroot. Plus they have no idea Wracks and Grotesques are actually made so they decide it's worth working with Rakarth in future. They prep for a counter attack, but they notice after the fighting that a lot of the new Grotesques fielded had familiar blue-grey skin and realise what happened to their sacrifices.

Immediately after they realise this Rakarth calls them up and ask for either his 7 Ethereals or 7077 other Tau. Now kinda mad at him the Tau try to attack his ship with their recently arrived reinforcements, only to find his ship is just a hologram and fake sensor signatures. Then they get a distress call from the planet the reinforcements came from. Urien Rakarth is attacking it now it's garrison fleet is away, along with Vect himself and a healthy smattering of kabals and covens joining in. By the time the Tau got back there to try and help the place was a charnel house of corpses devoid of life, most of the people having been spirited away to Commorragh and the others arranged into an insulting menagerie of meat.
To make matters worse, the Tau were livid and located an Eldar homeworld to retaliate. The problem was, these were Exodites, basically space Amish. While they put up a stubborn resistance at first, the Tau decided to just exterminatus the whole planet and be done with it. Not understanding that Exodite Eldar and Commoragh Eldar are two different factions, the Tau soon became acquainted with another faction of Eldar: Craftworld Iyanden Eldar, the most warlike and xenocidal of the Craftworld Eldar. The Iyanden Eldar were not amused that the Exodites had been slaughtered in an unprovoked act of senseless murder and set correcting the Tau regarding the differences between Commoragh Eldar and Exodite Eldar. Which is to say the Tau attacked the Craftworld Eldar and found that the Eldar forces were more mobile than first expected, and their weapons considerably more powerful than first anticipated. After getting soundly thrashed the Tau called it a draw, with some adorable lore along the way of the Tau finding damaged wraithguards & Earth caste Tau desperately trying to figure out how the Eldar made such advanced battlesuits. The battle ended with the Tau trying to form an alliance with the Iyanden Eldar, who rejected it, but nevertheless agreed to make the Dark Eldar pay for all the unnecessarily lost Eldar lives, the Tau concurred for their own losses.

Also as a related note, the Tau reclassifying Space Marines from a sentient caste of humans to 'living weapons' (literally calling them 'engineered humans') akin to the tyranids is both amusing and grimdark. The Tau-Space Marine interactions are one of the few nice times you get to see spehss mahrines from a new light. Stuff like Tau commanders dismissing reports of space marine strategy as implausible, as no force could insert their troops directly into Tau formations without falling to their AA fire, or arriving without the required heavy weapons needed to deal with Tau armour. Their first experiences with drop pods, space marines, terminators & dreadnoughts landing on top of their formations were quick learning experiences.
The Tau get a few other helpful experiences with space marines. Like happy fun time with the deathwatch infiltrating their world with penal guardsmen to assassinate ethereals. Or regular space marines deep striking on top of ethereals for the same reason. In one colourful instance with an ultramarine, a water caste diplomat successfully manages to guilt trip the ultramarine - very bravely & shrewdly talking the ultramarine down, mere moments before it was about to shoot the diplomat. The diplomat argues in fluent gothic that it knew enough about space marines & their fondness of heraldry to notice that they were knights, and how would their family & their people react if they could see him now, killing diplomats who were no threat to him? The space marine responds by saying he was just conserving ammunition and steps on the diplomat instead, but inwardly is rattled by the ordeal. But to the observing Tau, the voice broadcasted through its vox speakers was emotionless & hostile, pretty much confirming their suspicion that space marines couldn't be integrated.
Their final conclusion comes when they capture a raven guard space marine. Using mind worms (exactly like Alpha Centauri's mind worms, pretty gud) and Earth caste enhancement machines, they try advanced interrogation methods where traditional ones failed. Half the worms in the mind worm boil die and a few of the machines burn out just breaking through the raven guard's mental defences to get deeper into his mind. They find his childhood memories of living in a Hive World, and the Tau are largely disappointed with how completely and utterly shit it looks, tiny cubicles separated by tattered cloth to form makeshift rooms, all in the thick of industrial smoke and danger. The mind worms follow this memory of the boy in the hive looking up at the moon, and unexpectedly find themselves looking at a battlefield full of slaughtered humans, with the raven guard expressing satisfaction at the scene. The mind worms are confused until they understand the raven guard is telling them the dead bodies were traitors, that this is the fate of all traitors - at this point the mind worms are a bit unnerved because they realise the raven guard is resisting them, something they hadn't known was possible before.
Burning through their mind worm colony, boosting their enhancement machines to 87%, they bring in a secondary mind worm boil to reinforce the first. The mind worms tell the Earth caste scientists that they're going to die, or they're going to break the Space Marine's mind before they can break its will. The space marine concurs, as while they do extract the memory of the child looking up at space marines descending from the sky (presumably, the day he ended up getting recruited), the raven guard spams them with a hundred memories of burning worlds, exploding their enhancement machines and mind worms. The Tau conclude that even with extraordinary means, the space marines are a lost cause and should be killed immediately to neutralise them / demoralize neighbouring guard units.

Rowanas

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10862 on: December 04, 2018, 10:26:00 am »

snip

Yup, more bullshit spehssmarine nonsense.  Nothing to see here.
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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10863 on: December 04, 2018, 11:32:42 am »

Thanks to that htere's now a percent of lasgun charge with your name on it.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10864 on: December 04, 2018, 12:00:13 pm »

Do the BDSM goblins even care about the adorable little soulless weebs?

They like killing/enslaving them, yes. One of the first Tau/Eldar interactions was between DEldar and Tau who were being attacked by Tyranids and it's frankly hilarious.



So basically this Tau world, Vigos, was under attack and getting it's ass handed to it by Tyranids. Reinforcements from Rubikon were several weeks away and would probably not arrive in time. Then a strange chap calling himself Urien Rakarth appears and offers to help in exchange for a sample of each Tau caste to learn more about them. 77 of each non-Ethereal caste and 7 Ethereals as I recall. The Tau agree to the 77x4 but not the Ethereals.

Rakarth and his coven then unleash an army of Wracks, Grotesques and Pain Engines on the Tyranids and wreck face in tandem with the Tau, then take their payment away in their spiky horrible ships. The Tau are feeling kind skeezy about this cause the flesh monsters are creepy, but they're used to working with races they find grisly, like the Kroot. Plus they have no idea Wracks and Grotesques are actually made so they decide it's worth working with Rakarth in future. They prep for a counter attack, but they notice after the fighting that a lot of the new Grotesques fielded had familiar blue-grey skin and realise what happened to their sacrifices.

Immediately after they realise this Rakarth calls them up and ask for either his 7 Ethereals or 7077 other Tau. Now kinda mad at him the Tau try to attack his ship with their recently arrived reinforcements, only to find his ship is just a hologram and fake sensor signatures. Then they get a distress call from the planet the reinforcements came from. Urien Rakarth is attacking it now it's garrison fleet is away, along with Vect himself and a healthy smattering of kabals and covens joining in. By the time the Tau got back there to try and help the place was a charnel house of corpses devoid of life, most of the people having been spirited away to Commorragh and the others arranged into an insulting menagerie of meat.
I mean it kind of worked out for them didn't it?  They can repopulate that world, but if the Tyranids had taken a planet it would be dead forever.  By 40k standards everything went better than expected.
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Trekkin

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10865 on: December 04, 2018, 12:35:14 pm »

Thanks to that htere's now a percent of lasgun charge with your name on it.

Las weapons being what they are, I'm not sure if that's a threat or an offer to help with his next PowerPoint presentation.
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Tack

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10866 on: December 04, 2018, 12:54:16 pm »

In one colourful instance with an ultramarine, a water caste diplomat successfully manages to guilt trip the ultramarine - very bravely & shrewdly talking the ultramarine down, mere moments before it was about to shoot the diplomat.

Spoiler: sure (click to show/hide)

But yeah I have to agree that the mind worm nonsense is just chestbeating bullcrap. Somehow their body having crazy worm-melting chemicals is believable but “ImPoSsIbLe MeNtAl FoRtItUdE” just annoys the heck out of me.

I remember reading someone’s awesome explanation on the “grey knights never fall to chaos” thing with them saying something along the lines of ‘Well yeah, they do, but it’s all handled internally” or something... they made it sound far more plausible than I ever could have.

I of course attribute their resistance to chaos to the fact that Emps clearly spliced their geneseed with broodmind DNA.
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Kot

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10867 on: December 04, 2018, 01:29:04 pm »

Las weapons being what they are, I'm not sure if that's a threat or an offer to help with his next PowerPoint presentation.
Unless you actually have armour from 20,000 years into future, I think it's more like a threat.
But yeah I have to agree that the mind worm nonsense is just chestbeating bullcrap. Somehow their body having crazy worm-melting chemicals is believable but “ImPoSsIbLe MeNtAl FoRtItUdE” just annoys the heck out of me.
Dunno. Space Marines are probably trained in some insane torture survival techniques, and it's less them being, well, Space Marines, and just being well trained. Surviving Mind Worms wasn't impossible in Alpha Centauri even, if I remember right, if you want to use that as parallel. Tau as a species seem susceptible to mind control in general, so maybe they're just generally weak willed and are surprised when they see someone with actual purpose. This is a bait, but still. The fact a lot of Marine memories outside of warfare are incredibly distant or even possibly wiped during the process doesn't help.
I remember reading someone’s awesome explanation on the “grey knights never fall to chaos” thing with them saying something along the lines of ‘Well yeah, they do, but it’s all handled internally” or something... they made it sound far more plausible than I ever could have.
Of course they don't fall to Chaos because some fucking fancy mancy shamancy resistance coming with the badge. They're just the best of the best, constantly fucking monitored (a lot of times corruption takes quite a while to take seed, and yes, that does, in fact, mean, they get Emperor's Peace in the head if they show weakness, canonically). Don't underestimate but also at the same time don't overstate Chaotic powers. Regular humans have proven to be capable of surviving pretty insane corruption, so Marines should even more, considering they're hand picked (and extremely tested, even more so with Grey Knights) for mostly that. Body is easy to fix, prepare and enhance, but the mind is not. Considering that Grey Knights are picked from the best, the best possible treatment are used on them and then they are essentially wiped clean and kept in the state of constant "FOR THE EMPEROR", there is simply nothing for Chaos to catch on, and if there somehow was, it would, yes, canonically, be treated internally. Matt Ward is one thing, but if this kind of effort goes into their creation they should probably be somewhat good at the purpose they were created for.
I of course attribute their resistance to chaos to the fact that Emps clearly spliced their geneseed with broodmind DNA.
Emperor had fuck-all (at least directly) with creation of Grey Knights. He approved it, but it was Malcador's pet project. As far as their gene-seed goes, there were quite a few theories. I liked the one, that still implied Alpharius/Omegon would be Janus (which is not a thing, because of course GW has to fuck things up with plot, reee), so their gene-seed would be directly taken from Primarch gene-seed that Alpha Legion stolen during Horus Heresy and that has not been seen ever since. There is a book which says their gene-seed is straight from Emperor, but eh. Remember, everything is canon, not everything is true.

EDIT: Also, Battlefleet Gothic: Armada II beta tommorow, apparently. I am hype.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 01:46:35 pm by Kot »
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Hanslanda

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10868 on: December 04, 2018, 01:53:36 pm »

Speaking of Janus, I have a tattoo of Janus, the two-faced Roman God of transitions, doorways, and changes.

Irrelevant sidenote.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10869 on: December 04, 2018, 01:56:17 pm »

Las weapons being what they are, I'm not sure if that's a threat or an offer to help with his next PowerPoint presentation.
Unless you actually have armour from 20,000 years into future, I think it's more like a threat.

Pahahahahaha.  Yeah, mathematically no.  I've run the numbers.  lasguns that aren't lascannons are a complete joke that could be stopped by wearing a red jumpsuit.  And everybody else gets moderate sunburn.

Now, the lascannons?  That's rather more than a threat, that's an outright bowel-loosening thought.
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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10870 on: December 04, 2018, 02:01:20 pm »

But yeah I have to agree that the mind worm nonsense is just chestbeating bullcrap. Somehow their body having crazy worm-melting chemicals is believable but “ImPoSsIbLe MeNtAl FoRtItUdE” just annoys the heck out of me.
It's not just mental fortitude, so much as layers and layers of indoctrination to make penetrating spehss mahrin brains with psyker bullshit a lethal task. I'd expect a regular human of Inquisitorial fortitude to withstand such a psyker assault, and especially would expect such from a space marine whose recruit pool & training eliminates those without it, not including their general resilience to such tactics born in training & hundreds of years of experience. The only reason why it's described as impossible is because it's from the perspective of the Tau, who have hitherto had little to no experience with potent psykers, and have never tested particularly anomalous humans or space marines for their resistance to mind probing. Given that space marine librarians have made contact with the hive mind and managed to escape with their brains intact and their minds unprobed/dominated, a vastly smaller colony of mind worms would in all likelihood fail to probe the brain of a storm trooper, let alone a space marine veteran. Psykers succeeding in battle against spehss mahrins is rare

I remember reading someone’s awesome explanation on the “grey knights never fall to chaos” thing with them saying something along the lines of ‘Well yeah, they do, but it’s all handled internally” or something... they made it sound far more plausible than I ever could have.
Grey Knights never fall to chaos, likely because they're too few in number for any of them to wander off and do their own thing long enough to be corrupted, and secondly without any of their peers noticing (given that they're all psykers who can read each other's minds, it would be impossible for a grey knight to think of joining chaos without the others noticing and acting accordingly). It'd be more accurate to say no grey knights have fallen to Chaos yet, as unless you believe they've just redacted all instances of GK heresy (it's entirely possible there have been GK heretics but even the Grey Knights don't know this due to censorship), BL are hyping up one GK having doubts about the Imperium. That's the first step to growing 10 arms and wargarbling for Tzeentch

I of course attribute their resistance to chaos to the fact that Emps clearly spliced their geneseed with broodmind DNA.
I think it's most likely just the fact that they're all recruited from psykers

Trekkin

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10871 on: December 04, 2018, 02:01:39 pm »

Las weapons being what they are, I'm not sure if that's a threat or an offer to help with his next PowerPoint presentation.
Unless you actually have armour from 20,000 years into future, I think it's more like a threat.

Pahahahahaha.  Yeah, mathematically no.  I've run the numbers.  lasguns that aren't lascannons are a complete joke that could be stopped by wearing a red jumpsuit.  And everybody else gets moderate sunburn.

Have you really? I'd be interested to know what you got for their actual power output.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10872 on: December 04, 2018, 02:07:30 pm »

It's fairly close to the energy of a .22 rifle round, just a little higher if I remember correctly, but I'd have to find and dig out the stupidly huge sets of calculations, around twenty pages from back when I wanted to try out 40k stuff in RIFTS.  The math did not favor 40k at all, with the entirety of their anti-personnel weapons falling firmly in the realm of modern firepower.  Their anti-armor weapons didn't do so well against RIFTS firepower, but generally outpowered all modern equivalents, with the exception of the Vanquisher cannon very literally and mechanically being an exact copy of the M1 Abrams 120mm Rockwell Smoothbore with APSD rounds.

A decent chunk of that is crunch vs fluff tho', and power in fluff varies so drastically it would be silly to even try to figure out what anything is actually capable of.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 02:09:39 pm by NullForceOmega »
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Trekkin

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10873 on: December 04, 2018, 02:27:19 pm »

It's fairly close to the energy of a .22 rifle round, just a little higher if I remember correctly, but I'd have to find and dig out the stupidly huge sets of calculations, around twenty pages from back when I wanted to try out 40k stuff in RIFTS.  The math did not favor 40k at all, with the entirety of their anti-personnel weapons falling firmly in the realm of modern firepower.  Their anti-armor weapons didn't do so well against RIFTS firepower, but generally outpowered all modern equivalents, with the exception of the Vanquisher cannon very literally and mechanically being an exact copy of the M1 Abrams 120mm Rockwell Smoothbore with APSD rounds.

A decent chunk of that is crunch vs fluff tho', and power in fluff varies so drastically it would be silly to even try to figure out what anything is actually capable of.

Wow. Even if we assume a relatively generous 250 J per shot (.22 LR being ~217 J), that implies either their lasers have lousy slope efficiency or their power packs are equivalent to lithium-ion batteries. Then again, I've been assuming lasguns are a Q-switched MOPA laser with chirped-pulse amplification, given they operate in discrete shots, which might suggest the former.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10874 on: December 04, 2018, 02:42:37 pm »

I'm pretty sure they came out at more like 230, really lacking any meaningful punch at all, I was really disappointed by the numbers.  Everyone in the 40k community I had met at that point had really hyped how overpowered the setting was, and in reality, it just isn't.  Some of the garbage the IG uses is barely even W.W. II level equipment, especially the tanks.  Hell, almost all the tanks in the setting are just plain weak, the airpower on the other hand is pretty outlandish, not RIFTS batshit OP, but really impressive stuff.
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Grey morality is for people who wish to avoid retribution for misdeeds.

NullForceOmega is an immortal neanderthal who has been an amnesiac for the past 5000 years.
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