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Wait for the next release. I want usable mugs damn it!

55 (71.4%)

We can use the current one. I like the big trees and slightly smarter dorfs.

17 (22.1%)

I'll take .34.11 thanks. I want to know I'll get to kill things for sure.

5 (6.5%)

Total Members Voted: 77

[Mr Frog]

@Cynm:

perhaps the Seqivet "bible" also has something along the lines of "thou shall not fight" which, to careful interpretation, does not prohibit killing without a fight. (Which could be why their idea of combat is different)

Clever, but I have a more direct explanation (which is directly-supported by their raws): Seqivet are rather fragile, but make up for it by being able to prevent nearby creatures from noticing them via camouflage/some sort of telepathy (think Jedi mind trick). Thus, they naturally favour sneak attacks over straight-up assault.

Part 2 of that random thought like it could be interesting to write. From that explanation it seems like the one thing the Seqivet would not expect would be a bunch of dwarves with railguns kicking down their front door.

I doubt it'd be a complete surprise -- they're not idiots -- but they'd probably have trouble adapting to the dwarves' tactics after fighting the same way for so long, yes.


@Splint:

Beefed up? No. NO. From a gameplay perspective, it would be a terrible idea to have every single new foe be an unstoppable killing machine. Seqivet pose a different sort of threat than the others already -- their ability to slip through fortress security (cloaking + lockpicking = big trouble) is more than enough as it is. They don't need to be super-strong to be a problem, I'd think.

Think diversity. Each hostile should pose a different sort of threat in terms of gameplay. We already have some of that as it is -- manamaids dance, necessitating a buffer squad to absorb the sexiness (that might need to be balanced, I think -- I never really intended them for actual play); seqivet vanish, and turn up in the worst possible places, meaning the player has to keep a very tight rein on their civvies to prevent a bloodbath. We already have scythod as straight-up brawlers -- we don't really need any more like that (Spawn at least have their infectious bite to distinguish them).

E: On that note, how do manamaids fit in with the canon?

EE: Genetic abominations created by Ballpoint that escaped and created a civ. I'm calling it.

[Splint]

I meant the spawn getting buffed. From what I can tell Scythods are absolute monsters and shred damn near everything stupid enough to get withing poking distance due to their natural weapons and comparative sheer bulk. The Sequivet were primarily being a massive threat due to  the aforementioned lockpicking and sneaky-sneak abilities coupled with viciously effective weapons; can't exactly stop them from getting in when they suddenly show up in the middle of your hospital killing people right? Though with our luck that might be a much better fate than being in a hospital to begin with. Anyway they do sound like speedy glass cannons in all respects.

The Spawn as a whole, while tough as hell due to not needing silly things like air, undamaged brains, or enough circulating blood, appear severely outclassed in lethality. On the upside, manamaids don't scare them; they're just big jiggling dinners if they can take them down.

And this was my take on them. They're local, and spread across the continent by rivers and the ocean. That being said they probably avoid tundras/taigas and rivers/lakes in the latter like poison but that won't stop them from paying a visit just to have a little fun with their little bearded sparring buddies.

EDIT: I appear to be partially wrong about the scythods' lethaity aginst spawn. Also, there's scythod spawnitis victims. God help us if both end up fighting eachother and the scythods win with lots of bite victims. Anyway, it seems speed is key for the spawn to have any chance against them regardless. Once they start hacking away with their slicey bits it's pretty much just a matter of time.


EDIT II: Dwarves on the other hand fair very poorly in even fights.

Dwarf with iron armor loadout, a shield, and chainsword. Competent in dodging, fighting, swordsmanship, and armor use.
Scythod with no armor loadout and no weapon loadout with competant wrestler, striker, kicker, biter, fighting, and dodging.

Scythod won with largely minor injuries (mostly torn fat and slightly damaged chitin but did take a nasty hit to the stomach.)

EDIT III: I'm scared of the Seqivet now.

[Mr Frog]

@Splint:

Ahh, I see. I sort of retract my criticism, in that case, though my point about keeping foes diverse still sort of remains. Making the different enemies pose a different sort of threat makes them more memorable, I think.

I do agree that the Spawn should be buffed if they're that outclassed, seeing as how they're supposed to be more-or-less the horsemen of the apocalypse (I tried really hard to make them balanced, and it looks like I succeeded too well :V). I'm a bit dodgy about having too many superpowers throwing themselves at the fortress, though, as I'm concerned it'll end up being too much to handle.

What sort of weapons do the seqivet wield, again? I can't remember, and I suspect there's been changes.

I'll try to whip up a rough sketch of how I imagine the seqivet to look.

I imagined the manamaids as being on an imperialistic crusade to spread knowledge of their sexiness through whatever level of force they deem necessary.

NotAnEdit: Oh god, scythod can get spawnitis? Do they turn into regular spawn, or is there a special spawnified scythod? We're all going to die help help help

ActuallyAnEdit: What did the seqivet do?

E2: Okay, so I looked at the current version of the mod Talvi helpfully PM'd to me a bit ago... looks like the seqivet are literally unchanged from my originals. I feel all fuzzy now :3

E3: Still looking through the mod... not gonna spoil anything, but I think Talvi/Splint included some nasty surprises... I'm so excited!

[Splint]

To answer your questions in the testing it took railgun volly fire to take down a Seqivet swordsman who mercilessly slaughtered three different soldiers due to his sheer speed factor during my testing (during which he had mirrior kit to the dwarves: Iron armor with a shield and chainsword. One hit from a railgun slug though and it was over for him. And yes, spawnified scythods turn into scythod spawn which I imagine is a terrifying prospect.

Spawn fare decently enough in a one to one fight against Scythod but only because they feel no pain and don't bleed. Where that not the case, the spawn wouldn't have a chance in hell. A competent level (basically meaning a regular ol' footslogger) infantry dwarf has no hope of facing down similarly skilled scythods or seqivet. The former is too strong to beat one to one and the latter too fast.

Of course it appears the native railgun may well be our great equalizer here against both. One solid hit to the upper or lower body does enough damage (broken bones and bouncing across the ground) to incapacitate both in short order. Speaking of which, they may need to have a bayonet attached to do any real harm if the gunners are forced to fight up close. the stocks kept glancing off the scythods' chitin.

EDIT: The Squivet have a spear (whirling helix,) some kind of sword, and hammer (tonehammer.)

EDIT II: Scythods are warriors by nature and design. Dwarves present challenging opponents/prey.
Sequivet: some extremist faction or general imperialism. We're there to be conquered/destroyed for whatever reason.
Manamaids: They just wanna have fun and show off their dance moves to a crowd other than their friends! Dwarves and others understandably would prefer they not do that.

[Cynm]

The real strength of dwarves, as in humans, is making weapons that say "F*** YOU" from very far away.

Actually, that brings up a question, how do vanilla elves and humans and goblins stand up? Without modding it seems like they will be severely outclassed. And (I'm pretty sure) we don't want them getting wiped out in world gen.

[Reudh]

The real strength of dwarves, as in humans, is making weapons that say "F*** YOU" from very far away.

Actually, that brings up a question, how do vanilla elves and humans and goblins stand up? Without modding it seems like they will be severely outclassed. And (I'm pretty sure) we don't want them getting wiped out in world gen.

Let worldgen go a long time. They're both immortal, so they eventually outnumber other civs and can usually afford losses that dwarves, humans and others cannot.

EDIT II: Scythods are warriors by nature and design. Dwarves present challenging opponents/prey.
Sequivet: some extremist faction or general imperialism. We're there to be conquered/destroyed for whatever reason.
Manamaids: They just wanna have fun and show off their dance moves to a crowd other than their friends! Dwarves and others understandably would prefer they not do that.

I like the idea that Frog supplied for the Sequivet - a misinterpretation of their holy book making some of them believe that they're The Master Race.
Manamaids: They would enjoy dancing, but probably would want to keep Spawn as captive audiences as they're the only ones who can withstand the sexy moves. My thought is more just periodic dancing-raids to both gain new items and new audiences.
Scythods: yeah, they view dwarves as Honorable Enemies, worthy opponents to test their strength against.

[Mr Frog]

The Squivet have a spear (whirling helix,) some kind of sword, and hammer (tonehammer.)

Huh, looks like a lot of stuff from that old mod managed to make its way in here. Talvi, I love you

Whirling helix is basically a giant drill, tonehammer is a hammer that uses high-frequency vibrations to increase the damage dealt (which is heard as a distinct hum while the hammer is in use). Ditto the singing blade, which is what I'm guessing the sword was.
    In the original mod, the dwarves, which were the remnants of a high-tech society that accidentally nuked itself into oblivion, dug the weapons up from old ruins and reverse-engineered them without knowing what they were originally for or called, resulting in the idiosyncratic names. We can just say that the seqivet are using exotic, high-tech weapons the other species aren't familiar with.

Might be best to slow down the seqivet a bit if they're too overwhelming in direct combat, as they're already ninjas with high-tech weaponry.


@Reudh:

They would enjoy dancing, but probably would want to keep Spawn as captive audiences as they're the only ones who can withstand the sexy moves.

Beautiful. I'd think they've declared war on other species simply because they're trying to genocide the Spawn, which they don't want.


E: I'd rather not have railguns be the solution for everything. They seem more a tactical nuke, to be deployed sparingly in times of need.

EE: I'm sure Splint will now correct me on the definition and usage of a tactical nuke :V

EEE: Also, is misspelling 'seqivet' going to be some sort of running gag? "Squivet" is my favourite so far :p

[Talvieno]

Hey, guys. (: Bit of a busy past few days, but I'm here for a few minutes.

I really approve of Mr Frog's idea of diversity in species, both as a single species having diversity among its members, and diversity among separate species. Vanya was an example of the former, and the scythod culture is an example of the latter. If the seqiv are going to have a culture, let's not let it be absolute... which, I know, is pretty much what you said, Mr Frog. lol   I'm just adding my two cents. Besides, it makes for a better story than "You are in race A, therefore you must kill."

Yes, scythod can get Spawnitis. No, they're actually less deadly in spawnified form, simply because the spawn claws are wimpier than a scythod's hulking scythes. Spawnified scythods are not a thing to be feared... well, besides the fact that they get NOFEAR and NOPAIN and all those wonderful little tags that come along with them. But, they still have blood, and bloodlessness was what made the spawn so powerful in combat.

Mr Frog - yes indeed, I hunted down where you'd linked me to your mod, ages ago, and put everything in, in full. (There may or may not still be a certain reaction for adventure mode that gives the player unwieldy amounts of resources at no cost.)

Seqiviet (I'm game for a running gag) are terrifying in that it's almost impossible to keep them out of an open fort, and the fact that they disappear. It's enough to make a player paranoid, which is an extreme feat for any game, let alone a mod. I found myself checking and rechecking in the middle of peacetime just to be sure that I didn't let any in... and one time completely locking down a fortress because I was SURE there was one running around somewhere (there wasn't). Scythod are different - they're a warrior sort. Their chitin is a tough sort of armor by itself, and although it'll turn some strokes from copper blades, if you get a dwarf with steel armor/weapons, they don't stand a chance in hell. It'll be like flaming pigs and elephants. Otherwise, your dwarves will be outmatched without archers (which do a pretty fine job at taking them down).

Mr Frog - the issue with the railgun is that I sadly lacked the modding ability to mess with reactions on such a large scale as what Splint wanted... Instead, I made it impossible to make bows from wood or bones, forcing the player to use ungodly amounts of metal in their railgun/serrated disc launcher production. Yes, railguns are indeed a oneshot headshot solution for all your problems... provided you get a hit the first time. Their reload time is so ridiculous, due primarily to the incredible weight, that any enemy can close the gap in the time it takes to reload and fire another round. I DID weaken them from Splint's original values, however. They still splatter you into a million tiny bits, but they won't propel you 60+ tiles anymore.

I imagined the manamaids as being on an imperialistic crusade to spread knowledge of their sexiness through whatever level of force they deem necessary.

Yes. Oh god, yes.

Manamaids: They would enjoy dancing, but probably would want to keep Spawn as captive audiences as they're the only ones who can withstand the sexy moves. My thought is more just periodic dancing-raids to both gain new items and new audiences.

I'm rofl'ing now. I like that manamaids are laid out to be these terribly misunderstood monsters... They just want to be loved... a little more intimately than anybody would like.


Dude, I seriously missed you guys.

[Mr Frog]

@Talvi:

I really approve of Mr Frog's idea of diversity in species [...]

Yeah, we're gonna have to work in a sympathetic seqivet character in order to hammer it in that they're not all evil. Maybe even a sympathetic Spawn -- they peacefully integrate into other societies in-game, and it'd be cool to see that acknowledged in-story to some extent.

But, they still have blood, and bloodlessness was what made the spawn so powerful in combat.

I like this. An easy explanation is that the Spawn virus is specifically geared towards turning dwarves, and that other species aren't turned properly and retain 'living' traits.

Instead, I made it impossible to make bows from wood or bones, forcing the player to use ungodly amounts of metal in their railgun/serrated disc launcher production.

Funny, it'd seem to me that one could make a workaround with custom reactions and workshops for anything... did you hit a problem somewhere? What exactly was intended?

Their reload time is so ridiculous, due primarily to the incredible weight, that any enemy can close the gap in the time it takes to reload and fire another round.

I greatly approve. This adds an element of risk, and makes it so that one can't just hand a novice marksman a railgun and have an instant nuke -- unless they're skilled enough to have good accuracy, they'll just get shredded while they try to reload.

It'll be like flaming pigs and elephants.

*blinks* What?

Dude, I seriously missed you guys.

Same here. Rule #33 of Spearbreakers: Talvi improves everything. I'm even posting semi-regularly now.

[Cynm]

If I remember correctly, in medieval times armies would sometimes set dozens of pigs on fire and point them in the general direction of the enemy, they could be devastating to undisciplined troops, but skilled soldiers had no problem. I could be wrong though.

I have no idea what flaming elephants have to do with anything.

[Splint]

Dwarf fortress. That's what flaming elephants have to do with this.

And actually the railguns will still punt you a pretty good distance but it requires a center mass hit to accomplish that, just as before. Otherwise it might knock them back a couple tiles but largely just break whatever limb it hit.

Anyway, the issue with production was the skill in battle they were governed by - crossbow - allowed them to be produced for one unit of wood/bonestack at the bowyer, making them ridiculously easy to get a hold of. I've been fiddling with reactions and once I'm finished with the stuff to make them killy, I'm going to test them out (for the curious, I'm working on a small diversified humans mod based on those mentioned in the Timewar.) If they work as planned, then I can handle production stuff regarding them and make them the instant death machines they once/kind of still were or are, as they'll be time consuming to produce but you'll get what you pay for: MURDERCANNONS! Of course said costliness of production means the other ranged weapons will be far more useful/good to train the troops on. Dunno what to do regarding the workshops though...

And actually you're use of tactical nuke was somewhat accurate. Low yield last resort weapon.

[Mr Frog]

Historical accounts of incendiary pigs or flaming pigs were recorded by the military writer Polyaenus[7] and by Aelian.[8] Both writers reported that Antigonus II Gonatas' siege of Megara in 266 BC was broken when the Megarians doused some pigs with combustible pitch or resin, set them alight, and drove them towards the enemy's massed war elephants. The elephants bolted in terror from the flaming, squealing pigs, often killing great numbers of their own soldiers.

(emphasis mine)

Seems like a waste of perfectly-good ham to me :V

[Splint]

Seems like a waste of perfectly-good ham to me :V

Agreed.

[Cynm]

A sacrifice of bacon is required for all military victories, it's usually eaten though, not set on fire and pointed at elephants.

[Aseaheru]

I wonder... would it be possable to have things that when launched turn into vapor? Or am I being silly?