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[GreatWyrmGold]

I understand your affinity for books, but players in DF burn whatever they feel like.  Magma appears to be the solution to every problem, problem being real or perceived.  Goblin explosion?  Magma.  Too many cats?  Magma.  All the cats are adopted by dwarves?  Burn the dwarves in magma.  Dwarf can't find enough silk cloth and goes crazy from his mood?  Magma.  Dwarf uses all the adamantine to make an earring?  Magma.  Too many children?  Burrow them and flood the room with magma.  This is a community that has figured out how drop children into pits with rabid dogs for 10 years until they come out at the end of it legendary in every military skill, provided they don't go insane first. 

If children aren't even implemented in a way that won't end up getting them burnt in magma.  I assure you, there is no way to implement books without someone deciding to use magma to make it "work" differently.   

And this is why I love this game!  All I want is for bibliophiles to run the school out of the library, making it (possibly) less desirable to burn the children, or the bibliophiles, in magma.  I don't see how we got off on this tangent anyway, exactly.

Look, just because we CAN burn something in magma doesn't mean we WILL. A dwarf who keeps skipping work to read? High on the hit-list, right before dwrves without useful skills.
And we got on this tangent because someone thought biblophiles should be lazy.

[C27]

Why couldn't they read while on break, as an alternative to standing around staring at a +limestone statue of flies+?

[GreatWyrmGold]

That would make sense, but it's not what was suggested.

[C27]

Well, studying to gain skills directly could just be another job assignment. That, or if there are designated classrooms similar to barracks, we could just assign dwarves to them as desired.

[GreatWyrmGold]

That doesn't cover biblophilia, though.

[Owlbread]

First off, signs in DF are written on. If you can't read, you can't figure out what they're selling except by going inside. This is in human towns, and dwarves seem to be more advanced than humans.

Second, if you can read and comprehend a detailed request, what stops you from reading at least simple literature?

Finally, I was merely requesting biblophilia to be implemented in a way that wouldn't lead to bibliophiles being burnt.

1. I don't think they should just be written on. That is perhaps a creative difference I have with Toady, because it does not seem to sit well with the time. I think they should have a picture and a caption for the learned.

2. A hell of a lot. When you were 6 years old and learning to read and write, could you read the bible, homage to catalonia or war and peace? Remember, there wouldn't really be "simple literature". Literature was something for the very learned, and was used by some as a vehicle for showing off one's intellectual abilities. If my literacy only really extended as far as being able to understand a simple written request, how could I read a book written by a very intelligent man trying to sound even EVEN MORE intelligent to his peers? By simple literature, do you mean things like popular fiction or something? Books and stuff like that only really appeared in the 19th century. We had poets like John Barbour who seemed to rely on text rather than presentation (unlike Blind Harry, who was a minstrel), but I get the feeling that people like Barbour were writing for other learned men. He was also a Catholic priest. Remember, the sheer expense of a novel would turn even a reasonably well-off artisan right off it. Back then, books were like pieces of artwork.

3. The only people who could possibly be bibliophiles would be very small in number, which doesn't really justify a mass-burning. "Bibliophilia" isn't a huge thing. People will burn them anyway, but it's not like you have to in order to have a stress-free experience with literature in the fort. One instance of it could be something like the "Philosopher's Guild" demanding the purchase of two books from the caravans to satisfy their intellectual curiosity. These books would mostly have practical value (e.g. showing you how to make something new, new spells for wizarding folk etc), and they'd be valuable to the fortress as a whole, so it's not like your money is being wasted. Books of poetry could perhaps teach your poetic Dwarves to write better, and thus create better poems.

[GreatWyrmGold]

1. It's the way things are now and have been since signs and reading were implemented.

2. I'm a bad example, but if I could read and understand the difference between "gold statue of a gorilla with platinum spikes" and "bold statue of Godzilla with platinum studs," I could understand Dr. Seuss. That's basically what I was saying. If smiths and such only have basic reading ability, writers would write books they can read so that they would sell.
Oh, and in case you haven't gathered it: You strawmanned me. The argument you're arguing against is almost the exact opposite of what I said.

3. Biblophiles won't be burned if they're not implemented in an annoying fashion!

[Owlbread]

1. It's the way things are now and have been since signs and reading were implemented.

2. I'm a bad example, but if I could read and understand the difference between "gold statue of a gorilla with platinum spikes" and "bold statue of Godzilla with platinum studs," I could understand Dr. Seuss. That's basically what I was saying. If smiths and such only have basic reading ability, writers would write books they can read so that they would sell.
Oh, and in case you haven't gathered it: You strawmanned me. The argument you're arguing against is almost the exact opposite of what I said.

3. Biblophiles won't be burned if they're not implemented in an annoying fashion!

1. I know, and I disagree with it.

2. I did strawman you, I apologise. But there would be no reason to write books that are extremely expensive to create (through the use of vellum, leather, decoration etc) for smiths and workers. They simply couldn't afford it. People weren't writing stuff like Doctor Seuss either at this time, so that's why the only things these smiths and workers would have to read (as we know it today) would be fancy-assed, high-brow tomes. I think that's what I was trying to say when I inadvertantly strawmanned you. It's not profitable for book merchants to sell to the masses because the production of books without printing was expensive and difficult - the idea of commercial writers is quite modern. I honestly can't express just how expensive books would be.

3. People burn anything if they have half an excuse, and like it or not anyone who likes reading expensive things in your fortress will give players half an excuse. I am not worried about people burning bibliophiles alive, I'm just worried about us "having to" in order to enjoy ourselves like we used to.

[GreatWyrmGold]

1. I think we've exhausted this topic of discussion.

2. I highly doubt the lack of low-brow entertainment of any kind in any time period, except for anachronistic things like TV shows in the 18th century. And dwarven smiths are among te most respected of non-noble dwarves, in addition to making pretty much the most expensive items known to dwarf. They're like Bill Gates or Honda or something, especially once nobles start buying gold crowns and iron scepters and such. And that's assuming dwarves don't have paper or stone slab stories or something.

3. I just want bilophilia to be a simple hobby, like fishing, sports, or drinking. Or bar fighting, since drinking seems to be a metabolic requirement for dwarves.

[Owlbread]

1. I think we've exhausted this topic of discussion.

2. I highly doubt the lack of low-brow entertainment of any kind in any time period, except for anachronistic things like TV shows in the 18th century. And dwarven smiths are among te most respected of non-noble dwarves, in addition to making pretty much the most expensive items known to dwarf. They're like Bill Gates or Honda or something, especially once nobles start buying gold crowns and iron scepters and such. And that's assuming dwarves don't have paper or stone slab stories or something.

3. I just want bilophilia to be a simple hobby, like fishing, sports, or drinking. Or bar fighting, since drinking seems to be a metabolic requirement for dwarves.

Now you're straw manning me. I didn't say there would be no low-brow entertainment of any kind, I said there would be no low-brow books. If you want entertainment, go to the local inn and laugh at the wandering bard or something. Or get drunk, play board games etc. You don't have to read to be entertained, as reading was something reserved for the aristocracy (sometimes) and the intellectuals.

You are also assuming that Dwarven smiths are among the most respected non-noble Dwarves. Even if they are respected that does not mean that they are so wealthy or powerful that they will be able to read literature. Paper and stone slab stories could be possible, just a bit odd if we consider what kind of societies Dwarves are based on. Plus, even when paper was around back in Ancient Egypt literacy rates were very low. Those who were lucky enough to be able to read or write, scribes, were prized and educated very well. In ancient Sumeria I'd estimate that roughly 1 in a hundred in a big city would be able to read and write, belonging to the class of scribes, and they were the people who wrote on stone too.

I don't think bibliophilia can be the simple hobby that you want. It's not like fishing, sports or drinking because it doesn't fit in with the time period. Maybe if your dwarf is a wizard or a philosopher or something, yeah, but not if he's the local blacksmith, farmer or drunkard.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Lowbrow books are a kind of lowbrow entertainment. That's not strawmanning, that's poor communication.

Metalsmithing is traditionally among the most dwarven of crafts, metal smiths are the least likely dwarves to suffer unfortunate accidents in most forts, and stone slab stories fit in well with dwarfiness IMHO.

Reading strikes me as a good hobby for any era with literacy and books, especially if dwarves are as...obsessed? with history as many fictional dwarves are and the fact that a fair percentage of the engravings festooning fortress walls are random historical events. Besides, who else would record the legends so accurately? Goblins? Elves? Kobolds?

[Owlbread]

Lowbrow books are a kind of lowbrow entertainment. That's not strawmanning, that's poor communication.

Metalsmithing is traditionally among the most dwarven of crafts, metal smiths are the least likely dwarves to suffer unfortunate accidents in most forts, and stone slab stories fit in well with dwarfiness IMHO.

Reading strikes me as a good hobby for any era with literacy and books, especially if dwarves are as...obsessed? with history as many fictional dwarves are and the fact that a fair percentage of the engravings festooning fortress walls are random historical events. Besides, who else would record the legends so accurately? Goblins? Elves? Kobolds?

Yes, lowbrow books are a kind of lowbrow entertainment. But they didn't really exist at that time nor were they affordable to the masses.

As I said about the stone slab stories and about the metalsmiths, even if they are respected by the players, that doesn't mean they will be able to read. I personally respect my soldiers a lot, and I know they can't read for toffee. Given that books, paper, stone slabs and the like are expensive and difficult to make, and require a lot of training and education to have people that can produce them, I don't think it's very likely that we would see widespread books. In real life, civilisations that relied on stone slabs for their writing like Ancient Sumeria had very low literacy rates.

Reading would appear to be a good hobby, but it is just impractical. I am not against the hobby appearing among specific Dwarves - scribes, wizards or monk-like characters for instance - but not among the average Joe. Furthermore, there is nothing stopping classes of Dwarves from writing or recording history. I agree with you on that - Dwarves should be recording history vorraciously. But not all Dwarves should be able to read it. Instead, the masses could learn about history through engravings on the walls and pictures, as you have said. It's not like engravings rely on any text to get their message across.

All this said, Dwarves could be an exception. It would be quite cool if Dwarves were generally so advanced that literacy was quite high among the rank and file, maybe the humans could be similar to the societies I've been prattling on about. You would have to have some kind of education system though.

[GreatWyrmGold]

DF might resemble midieval Europe, but that is ignoring differences, like slabs and the fact that smiths aren't mere peasants. You said in Reply 40 that dwarven craftsmen would have to read at least a little. If they can read a little there, why can they not read a little in a different format?
And stone slabs are expensive to make? You make them from stone, which isn't exactly rare for dwarves. And training? An below-average engraver can turn a slab into a memorial pretty darn easily. If you can take two moderately skilled dwarves, tops, and have them turn something so common people throw it into volcanoes just to be rid of it into a product, it's probably not expensive to make. It won't be Shakespeare, but it'll be possible.

An education system is planned. And seeing as only dwarves have the technology or knowledge to make steel, they seem to be more advanced than humans or goblins, even not accounting for their progidous mechanical skill.

[Owlbread]

DF might resemble midieval Europe, but that is ignoring differences, like slabs and the fact that smiths aren't mere peasants. You said in Reply 40 that dwarven craftsmen would have to read at least a little. If they can read a little there, why can they not read a little in a different format?
And stone slabs are expensive to make? You make them from stone, which isn't exactly rare for dwarves. And training? An below-average engraver can turn a slab into a memorial pretty darn easily. If you can take two moderately skilled dwarves, tops, and have them turn something so common people throw it into volcanoes just to be rid of it into a product, it's probably not expensive to make. It won't be Shakespeare, but it'll be possible.

An education system is planned. And seeing as only dwarves have the technology or knowledge to make steel, they seem to be more advanced than humans or goblins, even not accounting for their progidous mechanical skill.

When I said a little, I made it clear that it really was just "a little" as in:

"golde stachu wit all ringes hangin off fingrtips - mebzuth da brokr".

"big platnum cat wit no eyes - solon da jeweler"

What kind of low-brow literature would we be talking about here? Poetry? Stories? Because you can hear both of those from the bards, why would you go and learn to read just to read the same stuff without the fun of the bard's presentation? It's like reading a movie script rather than watching the movie. The expense comes less from carving the stone and more from the months of dedicatedly teaching someone the ins and outs of the Dwarfish language in order to get their scribe skill to a high standard. And then comes the practical problems - just how long are these stories? How does the Dwarfish alphabet work? Can a 150 - page story in our world fit onto a slab of stone the size of a dinner plate, or a table? Perhaps if Dwarfish writing was written in a spiral-form or something reaching out from the centre.

It could perhaps be based on the old ogham alphabet which was sometimes written on wheel-shaped stones, although the Dwarves could do it more like a spiral to get more in:



It would be really heavy though if it was stone. Thin sheets of metal or plates made of pottery could be preferable alternatives, but they would be more expensive.

There are practical problems to solve.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Why would you teach them with such horrible spelling and grammar issues? That is obstructive to communication if not everyone has the same set of errors or much better reading skills than you are implying. If the former, then I miss your point.

Bards don't always tell or even know all of the stories you want them to, and don't perform at any hour of the day wherever you can bring a book or bunch of stone slates. Unless you have a bard who sticks firmly to one tavern, you might not even be able to find a bard, period.

Dwarvish spiral-shaped writing could be neat, and it even has historical precedence.

And, frankly..."practical problems to solve?" Dwarves forge metal with MAGMA. Practical is not a big issue for them, even taking out player input.