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Author Topic: WH40K discussion thread: from Tyran's heart I stab at thee.  (Read 971014 times)

Kot

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #3705 on: April 11, 2016, 05:08:55 pm »

Yeah, it's shallow Warp dives that aren't very long but they have about the same risk as longer range ones (though you don't have a Navigator to try and guide you out if shit goes haywire) usually in combination with mapped star charts (Pirate just has to buy a route from Rouge Trader leading from, let's say, bunch of asteroids where he sets up his base to one of main shipping points or just use the public ones and then just pretend he's regular merchantman like everyone else) or captured Navigators. I imagine some of them aren't really that sad about serving "private enterprises".

This is why small empires could exist before Emperor had his Great Crusade and brought the Navigator houses with him.
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TempAcc

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #3706 on: April 11, 2016, 05:15:07 pm »

Man, there really should be a game (electronic or tabletop) about being a navigator and guiding a ship through warp jumps. Of course, this would mean the devs would have to come up with how warp navigation works, something that isn't often aluded to in the lore.
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Kot

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #3707 on: April 11, 2016, 05:30:47 pm »

It's proably kind of trying to guide a burning plane with no wings when your only point of reference is a dim light back at Terra that can be mistaken for Eye Of Terr, and it sometimes gets obscured by thick pink fog, you have to battle deamons all the time, if you look at certain places in space like mentioned warp storm then your head explodes, and if you screw up by a milimeter you might end up in middle of Slanneshi rape caves. Oh, and everything is in an constant motion, time works like in a Salvador Dali painting and there are random scary faces and disturbing noises all around and you have the worst headache of your life times ten, and sometimes you can feel a light disturbance up in your privates because some deamon feels like doing jokes this day... and really it's like all this but squared... andand waaaay, waaaay worse... and you're an inbred idiot with all the genetic problems that are possible because you need to have this third murderous eye that everyone hates you for and you are constantly bullied beacuse of it.

Also you crew has no fucking idea what are you doing and they sometimes think it's a great idea to disturb you mid-flight to ask if you actually do really have the third eye in middle of your forehead which throws you completly off your already fragile concentration.
And then you die because of severe deamon tentacle dick poisoning.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 05:40:18 pm by Kot »
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Grim Portent

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #3708 on: April 11, 2016, 06:17:06 pm »

The Night Lords books by ADB feature a navigator as a main character, and there's quite a few descriptions of warp travel from her point of view.

The navigators job is to observe the warp through their third eye from a specially warded chamber and relay information about the currents to the ships captain. During the process the navigator is sometimes linked with the ships machine spirit and have to find a balance with it in order to do their job properly. The process of navigating is very physically stressful when things go wrong, and the navigator can wind up bleeding from the eye, vomiting blood or passing out when the warp is rough. Bad navigators will wind up smacking into the warp currents from the wrong angles, buffeting the ship and stressing it's gellar field, good ones steer the ship to flow with and around the currents. It's partially based on age of sail sailing, where you need to find the right currents of air and sea to get to your destination safely.

Sorcerers on the other hand are depicted as brute forcing the warp out of the way of their vessel, essentially pulling a Moses and parting it through sheer force of will and magic.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #3709 on: April 11, 2016, 09:38:35 pm »

Slow and steady Warp Travel.

Just how I like it. With essentially zero risk of Daemonic infestation on my nice tidy Kor'vattra. Sure, it's maybe half the speed of the average Imperial ship on a good day, but what do averages mean with your silly way of exposing yourself to literally hell every time you need to go on vacation? Logistics is much nicer when you can rely on ships arriving when they're supposed to.

On more serious note, since 40k was originally Warhammer Fantasy IN SPACE, and still bears the marks of that(like Navigators 'sailing' ships through the warp, and macro cannon broadsides and so on), particularly in the naval aspect, and Tau are typically designed to have a modern 'modern' aesthetic or feel to them (significantly smaller focus on melee combat, lots of missiles, turrets on their ships designed to concentrate all their fire at maximum range, lots of missiles IN SPACE, and so on), what is their Warp dips the equivalent of in real life? Steamboats/ironclads, with massive paddlewheels? Or just essentially modern day screw-propeller allegory?
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Egan_BW

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #3710 on: April 11, 2016, 10:15:30 pm »

Tau warp doesn't dive directly into hell, but wouldn't the Tau have less to worry about when doing so?
Theoretically, couldn't Tau steal Imperial warp drives and go much faster while ignoring all the dumb spooky whispers from outside?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #3711 on: April 11, 2016, 10:39:13 pm »

You can definitely navigate the Warp via computer aided jump, and I'm pretty sure Dark Age cogitators to that effect are one of the possible arcaeotech advantages available. It also, of course, fits with the ripping off Dune that Navigators are.

And there are almost certainly wild Navigators out there, considering they were one of the very first abhuman strains and spread humans across the galaxy 20,000 years ago. As I recall, the Imperial "request" is submit and move your elders to Holy Terra or die when a stable wild strain is found.
On more serious note, since 40k was originally Warhammer Fantasy IN SPACE, and still bears the marks of that(like Navigators 'sailing' ships through the warp, and macro cannon broadsides and so on), particularly in the naval aspect, and Tau are typically designed to have a modern 'modern' aesthetic or feel to them (significantly smaller focus on melee combat, lots of missiles, turrets on their ships designed to concentrate all their fire at maximum range, lots of missiles IN SPACE, and so on), what is their Warp dips the equivalent of in real life? Steamboats/ironclads, with massive paddlewheels? Or just essentially modern day screw-propeller allegory?
Star Trek warp drives, which is essentially what most Tau think their FTL is.
Tau warp doesn't dive directly into hell, but wouldn't the Tau have less to worry about when doing so?
Theoretically, couldn't Tau steal Imperial warp drives and go much faster while ignoring all the dumb spooky whispers from outside?
Contrary to popular opinion, Tau are not immune to Chaos in any way. Their skip drives are essentially from being almost totally incapable of understanding warp physics or psyker phenomena. You know how belief in magic is one of those anthropological universals, present in some form in literally every human culture to the point where there have to be dedicated groups discouraging belief in magic for any number of people to not believe in magic? Yeah, Tau aren't like that. They're as materialist by nature as their tiny souls suggest, every bit as much as humans are mystical by nature. The Tau not only don't believe in Imperial technology (clearly ramshackle and useless since it won't work for them and humans when asked nicely or otherwise just tell them they have to appease the spirits), they are literally almost incapable of grasping the idea of things like the Empyrean. They're physicists and smug euphoric atheists by instinct.

Yet, if they did go utterly insane and decided that trying to appease human spirit worship was worthwhile, and then went even more insane in finding a way to get machine-spirits built by people who believe all xenos must be slaughtered to cooperate with them, they'd still get eaten unless they also got the Gellar Field working. Daemons generally ignore Tau because eating Tau is unsatisfying, like the cardboard gruel to Human bourbon-glazed hamburgers or Eldar Michelin Star deconstructed molecular caramel cheesecake. Doesn't mean something won't be hungry enough to eat them if they literally serve themselves up to be eaten.

Two cases of corrupted Tau are essentially confirmed. First is the protagonist of Fire Warrior, who is canonically corrupted by Khorne, explaining his extremely un-Tau murderous aggression. Second is, and this is a more tenuous link, Farsight. The Dawn Blade isn't of clear origin at all, but it sounds a lot like the daemon sword Fulgrim recovered from the Laer, though it is almost certainly not literally the same sword. Some claim it is just made of chrono-alloys that steal the lifeforce of whomever is slain by it, but eternal youth and unworldly powers are also the properties of a daemon blade, and Farsight might not have a strong enough warp connection to actually hear it speak if it is a daemon blade.
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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #3712 on: April 11, 2016, 11:24:00 pm »

C'mon. Farsight is a revolutionary. Let's not be like that.

But also I'd like to believe that Tau are just as edible, they just don't warp-dive as much as warp-skip and so therefore aren't subject to the horrifying nightmares that the warp brings.
Plus they probably have some Gellar-substitute.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #3713 on: April 11, 2016, 11:37:52 pm »

I think you guys overestimate the lack of knowledge the Tau have about the Warp. They know it's a thing. They don't really get what it is, but they know it's there, they know how to use it to slingshot themselves through space to get their skip drives to work, the higher-ups know exactly the nature of the threat, and my guess is that knowledge about it on the higher levels depends highly on the individuals, but...the Tau still have legends. They still have their Ethereals, and while they're a lot more...something, to have advanced so quickly in 4,000 years to this level, I think 'organized' is a better term than 'scientific'. They're past the point of believing in magic, much as humans are mostly past that point nowadays (and if you tell someone that miracles are magic, you'll get a rather negative reaction, for that reason), not because they're intrinsically incapabable of attributing unexplainable events to woowoo forces, but because they're the Great Crusade the Emperor wanted, except with less facepunch and more xenoslove. And also no actual Emperor. They get Ethereals instead (strangely charismatic leaders unite planet in time of strife and lead them into an unprecedented era of expansion and assimilation; Ethereals are a caste-wide version of the Emperor, diluted and more diplomatic/manipulative than intimidating/psyker). They're in that era of reason and science. I mean, a pronounced lack of Daemons probably helps that, yeah, but humans themselves are barely capable of grasping the idea of the Warp, though we can think of an approximation of it.

The Tau appropriated Imperial technology when it benefitted them, it's just that a lot of Imperial technology is remarkably inefficient, at least in the Tau's view. Until and unless they capture an STC, this will likely continue to be the case. And if they get an STC, either the Empire is in for a really good time, or a really bad one, depending on how kneejerk the Mechanicus reaction time is.

I did come up with an idea for a story in which the Tau create ansibles that their gue'la engineers look at in horror and tell them are 'machine spirit astropaths' (whatever the mon'tau that means), and have a limited range, though still massive. Relay stations get set up to create far-reaching new seed colonies to try and get Septs started outside the main spheres, as an experiment. Unfortunately, when the relay stations experience strange interference and attacks by odd beasts, despite their often deep space or otherwise isolated locations, contact is lost. Of course, most of the seed colonies die out for one reason or another, but at least one survives, the warp storm that started up and transported their sector of space to a different sector of space has finally died down, and after having expanded remarkably well, they're now desperately trying to cut a path back through the galaxy to reestablish contact with the main Tau Empire. And that's my special snowflake cadre :P

C'mon. Farsight is a revolutionary. Let's not be like that.

But also I'd like to believe that Tau are just as edible, they just don't warp-dive as much as warp-skip and so therefore aren't subject to the horrifying nightmares that the warp brings.
Plus they probably have some Gellar-substitute.
They...don't, really. They just don't fully enter the warp. I mean, I've read some stuff that acts like they use the psychic races they've assimilated, and they might have some sort of weak one that's built into the engine, but there's nothing canon that I really remember well. And they really aren't as tasty for Daemons. They have much less significant presences, their souls are smaller and less filling, though they'll still eat them. They're just less attractive to chaos. Though I did have headcanon for a while that Ethereals were actually Daemon or at least created by Chaos(Tzeentch, specifically...).
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Xantalos

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #3714 on: April 11, 2016, 11:47:36 pm »

Farsight I think found an Eldar weapon - it's called the Dawn Blade and increases his lifespan, while the corsair prince Yriel has the Spear of Twilight that drains his life force. Seems to complement each other.
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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #3715 on: April 12, 2016, 07:44:11 am »

Isn't farsight's weapon a warp artifact thing? He has been made progressively stronger by it, to the point he's hardly a Tau anymore (he can extend his lifespan indefinitely through the dawn blade, is considerably stronger and more agile then any other Tau, etc), I wouldn't doubt Khorne would be aiming to get his hands on him whenever he gets a chance, but due to being a Tau and using Tau jump technology, he has barely been exposed to the actual warp yet.

And nah, Tau don't have a gellar field thing of their own. They just have a natural teflon eske effect when in the warp, sliding through it in short jumps rather then diving and sailing in it like imperial (and eldar sometimes) vessels do. Like Metalslimehunt said, their souls are tiny and unsatisfying in comparison to human souls. In fact, the different between Tau and Human souls is probably even greater then the difference between Human and Eldar souls, since extraordinary humans have been able to reach (and sometimes even surpass, like Malcador, Magnus doesnt count since he's part Emprah) generally known Eldar Farseer abilities. I dont think any Tau has ever demonstrated psyker powers or anything of the like. The whole mind control thing they have works through a combination of pheromones and caste system conditioning.
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Kot

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #3716 on: April 12, 2016, 08:07:36 am »

I would like to mention that the Chaos Corrupted blueberry meatshield from Fire Warrior returns in Soulstorm as the commander of Tau forces. HiS corruption ended up being pretty well for him, because despite screaming "Blood for the Blood God" (he actually does) he ends up as one of most competent Tau commanders which also means he's one of few actually trying to argue with Bald Ravens about the sense of it all, questioning orders from an Ethereal, caring about his forces  and sometimes agreeing that The Greater Good might not bę that perfect. He really seems like Farsight 2.0, which can mean that Tau take the best out of their "corruption".

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #3717 on: April 12, 2016, 09:42:06 am »

Why Tzeentche turned legion of scholars( guys, who he higly appreciates) into legion of automatons?
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Kot

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #3718 on: April 12, 2016, 09:58:47 am »

It wasn't Tzeentch. It was Ahzek Ahriman, one of the most powerful psykers (about on the level of Malcador the Sigilite) in the whole Galaxy, who got a bit disgusted with the severe mutations everyone started to get once they went heretic, with Tzeentch being Lord of Change and all, so he wanted to stop that.

He succeeded, but he also immensely fucked up and everyone who wasn't a psyker turned into dust cloud inside rusty armour. Magnus wasn't pleased and nearly murdered Ahzek in nerd rage.
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Tack

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #3719 on: April 12, 2016, 11:16:16 am »

But, importantly, everyone in the thousand sons who Was a psyker got a power boost.
Hilariously that used to be reflected in the rules (mark of Tzeentch got you an extra mastery level)

So I'd personally like to state that Ahriman only got Eldrad-Level-Powerful after reading Magnus's diary, getting a rubric power-boost, and spending another 10,000 years hunting down every secret of sorcery in the galaxy outside of the black library.
Oh, and also isn't turning to glass like a quitter.

I'm happy to say he's my fave character. So much so that I've refused to read any of the BL lit about him.
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