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[Teneb]

But in the lore is stated, or used to be, that we created Nurgle in the dark ages, Khorne was personally made by Gengis Kan...
If this was retconned, the finally GA would have done a good retcon with the lore.

It was retconned. As it is right now, the Gods (minus Slaanesh) always existed, but were severely weakened and barely had any intellect or personality due to that. Then the Eldar fuck everything up (literally) and give birth to Slaanesh, who sends the other three into overdrive.

Damn space elves.

[Xantalos]

But in the lore is stated, or used to be, that we created Nurgle in the dark ages, Khorne was personally made by Gengis Kan...
If this was retconned, the finally GA would have done a good retcon with the lore.

That got retconned quite a long time ago if I remember correctly. Like pre-Newcrons territory.

[LordBaal]

Mind you I didn't knew. That change was a good change then. Unlike what they did with Olanius, because nothing says noble sacrifice like a guy who knows he will come back up safe and sound within an hour or so...

[Xantalos]

Mind you I didn't knew. That change was a good change then. Unlike what they did with Olanius, because nothing says noble sacrifice like a guy who knows he will come back up safe and sound within an hour or so...

What's funnier even is if the Cabal was right and Horus would eventually cause the destruction of the chaos gods if he won then Ollannius is the reason that 40k is so shit because without him around to be nobly fucked up by Horus the Emperor never would've mustered the balls to annihilate his son and would've just died without being interred in the Golden Throne, eventually leading to Horus' repentance and destruction of chaos.

good job bruh

[Kot]

By the Emperor all this fucking heresy makes me want go purging.

But in the lore is stated, or used to be, that we created Nurgle in the dark ages, Khorne was personally made by Gengis Kan...
If this was retconned, the finally GA would have done a good retcon with the lore.

It was retconned. As it is right now, the Gods (minus Slaanesh) always existed, but were severely weakened and barely had any intellect or personality due to that. Then the Eldar fuck everything up (literally) and give birth to Slaanesh, who sends the other three into overdrive.

Damn space elves.

Except no.
It was like that (mostly) for always. Humanity didin't CREATE Nurgle or Khorne, especially Nurgle. The way lore said it, it was that Nurgle came into full power sometime around the Black Death, Khorne around Ghenghis Khan fun accomplishments and Tzzentch around the Renaissance. Correlation doesn't mean causation - Black Death was proably an effect of Nurgle coming into sentience, not what made him sentient. Tzzentch proably made people start considering change more and if anything, the Khorne birth was most related to Humanity considering that Ghenghis Khan became Doombreed, but it was more an recognition by Khorne to him rather than due to fact he personally created Khorne.
I mean, the fact that there were no fucking great huge warpshitstorms made during those times kinda gives you an idea that they got created in less reality-raping way than Slannesh.

The Cabal's vision - if it wasn't actually false and Chaos trickery - doesn't mean humanity created the Chaos Gods, just that the rapid and cataclysmic extinction of one of the most populous Chaos-supporting (Orks probably don't contribute a lot) race in the galaxy by the champion they've invested a lot of their own power into causes them to implode. That doesn't sound impossible to me - Horus at that point is so Warp-empowered he's like an Emperor Junior, ie, a god.

If, for some reason, you can't accept it, just interpret the vision as false. After all, Alpharius-Omegon did as they wanted and... it doesn't actually come to pass?

Mind you I didn't knew. That change was a good change then. Unlike what they did with Olanius, because nothing says noble sacrifice like a guy who knows he will come back up safe and sound within an hour or so...

What's funnier even is if the Cabal was right and Horus would eventually cause the destruction of the chaos gods if he won then Ollannius is the reason that 40k is so shit because without him around to be nobly fucked up by Horus the Emperor never would've mustered the balls to annihilate his son and would've just died without being interred in the Golden Throne, eventually leading to Horus' repentance and destruction of chaos.

good job bruh

No, fuck you, that's not what happened.
Cabals vision didin't actually came out as it should have - the fact that the thousands of years of war and stagnation wasn't exactly what was supposed as the "bad end" in Cabals vision was the fact that Emperor did not win. The "bad end" would be if Emperors victory but it would in the end cause humanity to get too bloated, populate whole Galaxy and ultimately cause maximum overdrive of warp or someshit, possibly by another brith of a Chaos God (Chaos God of Order?) which would proably fuck the Galaxy up for good. The "good end" was human extinction which starved warp, as the other races were either too weird for it (Orks), had measures against it (Eldar) or were far too small (Great Crusade removed a lot of Xeno races) to survive Cabals "mopping up" afterwards.
What actually happened was something in between - by not letting either Emperor or Horus actually win, Alpharius and Omegons schemes (and also of course, Ollanius) - wether it was on purpose or not - bought several thousand years of time for someone to come up with some other way to unfuck the whole situation.

[PanH]

The Emperor said he had a way to avoid the humans getting warp fucked, but I agree that it's not really obvious. His network (which was fucked by Magnus) could have served the same purpose as the Eldar's, but humanity would have been bloated and might have fucked up like the eldars.

Also, Ollanius Pius has suffered multiple retcons, and while he's still a saint of the IG, he didn't die anymore to Horus. I think it's some Terminator which sacrifice itself (which is totally missing the point but hey).

[Radio Controlled]

No, fuck you, that's not what happened.

While I appreciate the fact that you followed up with an actual argument, I'd still like to ask people not to insult each other (unless I'm misreading the tone of this by a lot).

Also, this is what lexicanum has to say on the Cabal:

[...]The Cabal later directed its agents John Grammaticus and Damon Prytanis to assassinate Vulkan on Macragge with the artifact known as the Fulgurite.
Having studied the development of the primarchs over some decades, the Cabal were able to determine that the most important of them were the "oldest" (Horus) and the "youngest" (Alpharius Omegon). They foresaw that Horus would ignite a galactic-level civil war using the powers of Chaos, and claimed that what Horus 'would do', Alpharius would 'undo'. They also claimed that, while the Heresy was inevitable, the Alpha Legion was perfectly placed to control and direct it to one of the two possible outcomes.

Outcome One: Victory for Horus
The Cabal believed that, after the Heresy, a scintilla of the honourable being he once was would remain within Horus, eating at him and fueling a self-destructive sense of self-hatred and loathing that would see Horus fall on his subjects in an acceleration of the violence of the Heresy, creating civil strife amongst the traitor and Chaotic forces that would culminate in a final armageddon. The end result of Horus leading humanity would be total extermination of the human species within two or three generations...however, if this were so, the powers of Chaos, so heavily invested in humanity, would be extinguished with it.

Outcome Two: Victory for the Emperor
The foreseen outcome of the Heresy, the Cabal saw the Emperor giving his life to kill Horus, becoming a howling rictus trapped inside the Golden Throne. They believed that this path would lead to stagnation, and stagnation to decay. This decay would accelerate, continually allowing the Chaos powers to grow and spread their influence, until after ten or twenty thousand years of misery, the entire galaxy would be consumed by Chaos.

Aftermath
The Cabal, operating on the long view, sought to generate the first outcome by convincing Alpharius Omegon of the truth of their predictions. They asked him to place himself and his forces under the banner of Horus, despite their sworn loyalty to the Emperor, and do all they could to ensure the betrayer's victory, thus sacrificing humanity to destroy the Chaos Powers. As far as is known, the primarch of the Alpha Legion appears to have acceded to this request. As the Heresy ended with the second outcome, it appears that the Cabal's machinations failed and that, if they are to be believed, the galaxy is doomed. The Alpha Legion are still branded traitors to the Imperium and the Emperor, although their true motivations and loyalties since meeting the Cabal are not currently known.

The Cabal continued its attempts to try and influence the outcome of the Heresy. Sending John Grammaticus equipped with the Fulgurite to try and kill the Primarch Vulkan. The Cabal came to believe that a Chaos victory in the Heresy would eventually result in the destruction of humanity and thus severely weaken the emotions the Chaos Gods could draw upon..[2]
[...]

[Kot]

Also, this is what lexicanum has to say on the Cabal:

[...]The Cabal later directed its agents John Grammaticus and Damon Prytanis to assassinate Vulkan on Macragge with the artifact known as the Fulgurite.
Having studied the development of the primarchs over some decades, the Cabal were able to determine that the most important of them were the "oldest" (Horus) and the "youngest" (Alpharius Omegon). They foresaw that Horus would ignite a galactic-level civil war using the powers of Chaos, and claimed that what Horus 'would do', Alpharius would 'undo'. They also claimed that, while the Heresy was inevitable, the Alpha Legion was perfectly placed to control and direct it to one of the two possible outcomes.

Outcome One: Victory for Horus
The Cabal believed that, after the Heresy, a scintilla of the honourable being he once was would remain within Horus, eating at him and fueling a self-destructive sense of self-hatred and loathing that would see Horus fall on his subjects in an acceleration of the violence of the Heresy, creating civil strife amongst the traitor and Chaotic forces that would culminate in a final armageddon. The end result of Horus leading humanity would be total extermination of the human species within two or three generations...however, if this were so, the powers of Chaos, so heavily invested in humanity, would be extinguished with it.

Outcome Two: Victory for the Emperor
The foreseen outcome of the Heresy, the Cabal saw the Emperor giving his life to kill Horus, becoming a howling rictus trapped inside the Golden Throne. They believed that this path would lead to stagnation, and stagnation to decay. This decay would accelerate, continually allowing the Chaos powers to grow and spread their influence, until after ten or twenty thousand years of misery, the entire galaxy would be consumed by Chaos.

Aftermath
The Cabal, operating on the long view, sought to generate the first outcome by convincing Alpharius Omegon of the truth of their predictions. They asked him to place himself and his forces under the banner of Horus, despite their sworn loyalty to the Emperor, and do all they could to ensure the betrayer's victory, thus sacrificing humanity to destroy the Chaos Powers. As far as is known, the primarch of the Alpha Legion appears to have acceded to this request. As the Heresy ended with the second outcome, it appears that the Cabal's machinations failed and that, if they are to be believed, the galaxy is doomed. The Alpha Legion are still branded traitors to the Imperium and the Emperor, although their true motivations and loyalties since meeting the Cabal are not currently known.

The Cabal continued its attempts to try and influence the outcome of the Heresy. Sending John Grammaticus equipped with the Fulgurite to try and kill the Primarch Vulkan. The Cabal came to believe that a Chaos victory in the Heresy would eventually result in the destruction of humanity and thus severely weaken the emotions the Chaos Gods could draw upon..[2]
[...]

Hm.
Well, I dunno. From what I have read and heard the whole "Dead Emperor, Dead Horus" thing was a kind of compromise. I'd have to check, but still, I belive that the Cabal problem was the fact that the actual outcome wasn't one of the two they forseen, not that it was the "bad one", which was actually worse than the "bad one", since it meant they couldn't reliably see the future.

Also, Ollanius Pius has suffered multiple retcons, and while he's still a saint of the IG, he didn't die anymore to Horus. I think it's some Terminator which sacrifice itself (which is totally missing the point but hey).

At this point I lost track of what currently sacrificed itself to save Emperor. It was Ollanius, Space Marines, Terminators, fucking Custodes and such.

[LordBaal]

No, fuck you, that's not what happened.

While I appreciate the fact that you followed up with an actual argument, I'd still like to ask people not to insult each other (unless I'm misreading the tone of this by a lot).

Well considering how sexy Kot must be, I'll guess it could be a compliment?

I still like the old days better, with Ollanius Pius being a motherfucker regular joe with steel balls and necrons were a incompressible menace shrouded in horror and mystery.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

By all indications, the "coin lands on its edge" outcome is Alpharius' thing and probably what the Alpha Legion is really up to, constantly fucking everything up for both the Imperium and Chaos to stave off the final Armageddon.

This also makes Alpharius kind of awesome, as it would suggest that he gradually tricked the Chaos Gods into believing this is what they really want.

[Kot]

No, fuck you, that's not what happened.

While I appreciate the fact that you followed up with an actual argument, I'd still like to ask people not to insult each other (unless I'm misreading the tone of this by a lot).

Well considering how sexy Kot must be, I'll guess it could be a compliment?

Maybe. But I'm not sexy as the God Emperor.
I mean, sorry. I get carried away in my religious fevour.

I still like the old days better, with Ollanius Pius being a motherfucker regular joe with steel balls and necrons were a incompressible menace shrouded in horror and mystery.

He still is, and will forever be in our hearts.

By all indications, the "coin lands on its edge" outcome is Alpharius' thing and probably what the Alpha Legion is really up to, constantly fucking everything up for both the Imperium and Chaos to stave off the final Armageddon.

This also makes Alpharius kind of awesome, as it would suggest that he gradually tricked the Chaos Gods into believing this is what they really want.

At the time there were two theories - either it is the way you say, that Alpha legion purposefully tricks everyone to create stalemate, or it happened this way because one of the twins went with Option A, and the other went with option B, one becoming a leader of Traitor Legion and other ultimately becoming Janus, the first Grey Knights Grand Master or something. It's more complicated, considering ATM apparently both have kinda died during HH, so, well...

[nenjin]

Kot is just a slave to his Lore Boner, makes me him do questionable things.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

If you jump forward a hundred years, Kot is actually responsible for the foundation of the earliest poststructural heresy by reforming Catholicism into the Imperial Cult. All other religions are illegal in the Fortress City of Imperator Prime (formerly known as Warsaw, unrecognized by all other nations).

[Kot]

FOR THE EMPEROR!

[Digital Hellhound]

Kot is actually Malcador the Sigillite, tirelessly preparing us for the Emperor's glorious arrival.