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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[origamiscienceguy]

Abraham thought that god would raise issac back from the dead. He knew that his family would have to come from issac so he wasn't afraid of him dying forever. It still took a lot of faith to do though.

[Rolan7]

I have one question for the 'if god commanded you would you kill me?', have you done anything to give reason or need for me to kill you?

That's what a moral relativist would ask...  Trying to investigate the situation and weighing factors instead of relying on ironclad rules of conduct in real world situations.

By questioning the rules (and in this case, hypothetical God) you clearly know for yourself that absolute morality isn't enough.  Ideals are an important psychological tool, but they shouldn't get in the way of doing the right thing... Or force people to do the wrong thing.

Abraham thought that god would raise issac back from the dead. He knew that his family would have to come from issac so he wasn't afraid of him dying forever. It still took a lot of faith to do though.

I've never heard this before...  Could you show us where it says that?

[TD1]

Not to mention a terrified child and a father willing to do blood rituals to please his god.

[origamiscienceguy]

I've never heard this before...  Could you show us where it says that?

Hebrews 11:19

[Orange Wizard]

To be fair, they kind of did blood rituals anyway.

((although I totally agree that the whole story is kinda scary))

[origamiscienceguy]

Not to mention a terrified child and a father willing to do blood rituals to please his god.

I don't think issac was terrified. Issac was somewhere from 15-30 years old when this happened and abraham was well over 100 years old. Issac could have easily beaten his father in a fight. It is logical that abraham shared his belief that Issac would be raised from the dead and issac respected his father enough to go with it.

[Bohandas]

And if its not true then that by itself makes it a bad thing.

I'd be willing to ascribe that it's possible for someone to be taught the moral system of a religion without necessarily being forced to ascribe to all of it's tenets. Even if the way a religion believes things happen isn't necessarily true, they work great as moral system carriers, which allows for things that fall into the "good" moral category generally to be carried to more people.

Also what about the whole "lies to children" thing? Arguably, almost nothing that you've learned in science prior to the college level is actually "true", because they are all wrong things we say to allow you to get closer to the actual truth behind the way the natural world works. Does that make it "bad" for us to teach you these things?

Good teachers will acknowledge an omitted technicality if it's brought up to them, and Religion isn't a simplified version of anything anyway.

EDIT:
...It's a complicated version of nothing.

[Rolan7]

I've never heard this before...  Could you show us where it says that?

Hebrews 11:19

Huh, so it does.  Though to quibble I think it's saying he believed God *could* raise Isaac, but that's nearly the same thing.

[TD1]

Not to mention a terrified child and a father willing to do blood rituals to please his god.

I don't think issac was terrified. Issac was somewhere from 15-30 years old when this happened and abraham was well over 100 years old. Issac could have easily beaten his father in a fight. It is logical that abraham shared his belief that Issac would be raised from the dead and issac respected his father enough to go with it.

It seems to show the father misleading the son. Being economical with the truth, as it were.

“Father?”

“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.

“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”

8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

[origamiscienceguy]

And if its not true then that by itself makes it a bad thing.

I'd be willing to ascribe that it's possible for someone to be taught the moral system of a religion without necessarily being forced to ascribe to all of it's tenets. Even if the way a religion believes things happen isn't necessarily true, they work great as moral system carriers, which allows for things that fall into the "good" moral category generally to be carried to more people.

Also what about the whole "lies to children" thing? Arguably, almost nothing that you've learned in science prior to the college level is actually "true", because they are all wrong things we say to allow you to get closer to the actual truth behind the way the natural world works. Does that make it "bad" for us to teach you these things?

Good teachers will acknowledge an omitted technicality if it's brought up to them, and Religion isn't a simplified version of anything anyway.

EDIT:
It's a complicated version of nothing.

I am not sure if it is like this for other religions, but as a christian, you don't have to believe the whole bible to be saved. All you have to do is:
1. admit you have sinned
2. Believe that Jesus died for your sins and is the only way to heaven
3. Choose to accept the gift of eternal life.

[origamiscienceguy]

Not to mention a terrified child and a father willing to do blood rituals to please his god.

I don't think issac was terrified. Issac was somewhere from 15-30 years old when this happened and abraham was well over 100 years old. Issac could have easily beaten his father in a fight. It is logical that abraham shared his belief that Issac would be raised from the dead and issac respected his father enough to go with it.

It seems to show the father misleading the son. Being economical with the truth, as it were.

“Father?”

“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.

“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”

8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

Forgot about that part. Issac still must have respected his father enough to go with it. I don't think abraham could force issac to do it.

[Orange Wizard]

fear

It's also possible they were terrified of God's retribution if they didn't go through with it.

[TD1]

What I see is a son who trusted his father. His father used this because his God told him to. He raised a knife, perfectly willing to kill his own son for eschatological reward.

The son did not fight out of trust. The father bound his confused child and put him on top of what he intended to be his funeral pyre.

No matter how much he "didn't want to do it" he was still willing to. I would ditch the god that made me do that, and to hell ((tee hee)) with the consequences.

[i2amroy]

Good teachers will acknowledge an omitted technicality if it's brought up to them, and Religion isn't a simplified version of anything anyway.

EDIT:
...It's a complicated version of nothing.

My main point is that just because something is "wrong" doesn't necessarily make it "bad". (Also a lot of lies we tell to children aren't just wrong on a technicality, many of them are just blatantly wrong. Go to any early math class and you'll run into sentences like "you can't take the square root of a negative" or "you can't subtract 5 from 3" on a very regular basis. These statements are arguably "wrong", but we still use them as a tool for teaching.

Religion does a similar thing. I'd be willing to say that pretty much any religion has two major goals:
1) To explain the natural world (which personally, I'd say science does a bit better)
2) To spread it's moral system (which religion is probably the best carrier for)
Religion uses analogies and other things that may be "wrong" in order to teach you and accomplish those goals, notably goal number 2. Things like Abraham being told to sacrifice Isaac might never have happened and may be "wrong" in that sense, but if you look on them as steps to accomplish one of the goals of religion (that of making you share their moral code) then they work identical to the steps math and science use to explain simpler topics to younger students, as an easy way to package a lesson to promote the student's understanding of a more complex whole (in this case their entire moral code).

[origamiscienceguy]

Abraham bound issac because that was tradition for sacrificing and it was made into a law (i don't have my bible with me, but sacrificing law was can be found somewhere in Deuteronomy i think.) Issac was most likely not a "confused child". The bible describes the event happening "some time later" and the trip took at least 3 days. meaning issac was old enough to make the journey. Issac also carried the wood needed for the sacrificing up the mountain meaning he was strong. Much stronger then his father. Bible scholars estimate his age to be 15-30 years old.

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