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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[origamiscienceguy]

Sin is, in effect, the compulsion to go against God. It's (metaphorically) tied to "the flesh", which is why the New Testament is full of verses about casting aside your old body and so on. None of that is literal - you can safely ignore it if you like.

I thought origamiscienceguy is a biblical literalist, though, which would imply that’s not what they mean.

I do think that sin is a literal part of us on the earth. We are also tempted by Satan while we are on the earth. For example, you don't have to teach a small child how to lie.  Once we die, we receive a new body that does not have that sinful nature. If you think that that goes against free will, in heaven, we will finally see God in his full glory, and everybody will worship him day and night because it is what he deserves for how great he is.

[Teneb]

Sin is, in effect, the compulsion to go against God. It's (metaphorically) tied to "the flesh", which is why the New Testament is full of verses about casting aside your old body and so on. None of that is literal - you can safely ignore it if you like.

I thought origamiscienceguy is a biblical literalist, though, which would imply that’s not what they mean.

I do think that sin is a literal part of us on the earth. We are also tempted by Satan while we are on the earth. For example, you don't have to teach a small child how to lie.  Once we die, we receive a new body that does not have that sinful nature. If you think that that goes against free will, in heaven, we will finally see God in his full glory, and everybody will worship him day and night because it is what he deserves for how great he is.

Heaven sounds terribly boring from that description, if worshiping the big man is all there is to do. Your description also implies there is no choice: you are there, so you must worship, you can't just do anything else, if you would still be capable of wanting to do anything else (which sounds a lot like brainwashing to me).

[Sheb]

It's not really that you don't have free will, it's just that one option is so great everyone will choose it.

It's like if you're presented with a plate of the best nachos ever. You can choose to eat it or not, but everyone will choose to eat it.

[Graknorke]

But isn't the reason why God doesn't come down and indisputably prove himself to all of us because that would violate free will if there's obviously only one decision anyone would make. I think it was Origami who brought it up some time.

[Telgin]

That's the argument I generally hear any time someone brings up free will or asks why God doesn't just dispel the question of His existence.

I guess free will is just irrelevant in heaven, since we'd have already been tested on Earth.  Or whatever the point of mortal life is anyway.

[origamiscienceguy]

Sin is, in effect, the compulsion to go against God. It's (metaphorically) tied to "the flesh", which is why the New Testament is full of verses about casting aside your old body and so on. None of that is literal - you can safely ignore it if you like.

I thought origamiscienceguy is a biblical literalist, though, which would imply that’s not what they mean.

I do think that sin is a literal part of us on the earth. We are also tempted by Satan while we are on the earth. For example, you don't have to teach a small child how to lie.  Once we die, we receive a new body that does not have that sinful nature. If you think that that goes against free will, in heaven, we will finally see God in his full glory, and everybody will worship him day and night because it is what he deserves for how great he is.

Heaven sounds terribly boring from that description, if worshiping the big man is all there is to do. Your description also implies there is no choice: you are there, so you must worship, you can't just do anything else, if you would still be capable of wanting to do anything else (which sounds a lot like brainwashing to me).

It probably does sound boring right now, but we were created to worship God. I imagine that worshiping him will be the most fulfilling and wonderful thing ever.

[TD1]

To future, changed you, it probably will be great. To current, doesn't-want-to-spend-all-of-eternity-doing-essentially-nothing-but-praying you, it's a drag.

Rather implies that future, heavenly you is not...well, you.

Though this is a rabbit hole we've dived down a few times now.

[origamiscienceguy]

Even here on earth, worshiping God is satisfying. Why do you think people want to go to church in the first place? It becomes a lot easier once you realize how much God loves you. He deserves all we can give him.

[Calidovi]

Even here on earth, worshiping God is satisfying. Why do you think people want to go to church in the first place? It becomes a lot easier once you realize how much God loves you. He deserves all we can give him.

I always assumed that the popularity of church was partly due to the "like-minded community" aspect. What does church provide that prayer alone doesn't otherwise?

[origamiscienceguy]

Even here on earth, worshiping God is satisfying. Why do you think people want to go to church in the first place? It becomes a lot easier once you realize how much God loves you. He deserves all we can give him.

I always assumed that the popularity of church was partly due to the "like-minded community" aspect. What does church provide that prayer alone doesn't otherwise?

Yes. That is also a reason, but the people *should* be coming together to worship God together. That is the "like-minded community" reason people *should* be coming. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that many Christians don't know that.

[Frumple]

I always assumed that the popularity of church was partly due to the "like-minded community" aspect. What does church provide that prayer alone doesn't otherwise?

A priest to mangle the bible into horrible shapes, mostly, with a nice sideline of behavior explicitly contrary to the text (sup matthew 6:1-15) :V

The rest of it is pretty much entirely social, yeah. Not even about being around like-minded people, really (that helps, but churches are often quite fractious*), it's just entrenched enough in a lot of places people realistically don't have a choice but to attend if they want to have any meaningful degree of community integration. Combine that with conditioning the youth to attend and you've got a fair amount of the reason the vast majority of churchgoers go.

*Church politics are often amazing (to watch, from a distance). It's like normal clique/social maneuvering, except the people involved are entirely willing to claim each other are pawns on the devil or cite aural hallucinations as justification for their actions with an entirely straight face, and then shift track not five minutes later. And that's just within a particular congregation! What gets said about other congregations is better left unsaid

[Fenrir]

It probably does sound boring right now, but we were created to worship God. I imagine that worshiping him will be the most fulfilling and wonderful thing ever.

Even here on earth, worshiping God is satisfying. Why do you think people want to go to church in the first place? It becomes a lot easier once you realize how much God loves you. He deserves all we can give him.

Wow. That is creepy.

[Orange Wizard]

IMO the most Biblical interpretation of Heaven (although there's very little said to describe it) is that it'll be exactly like Earth, but everyone will be nice and get along and go to church on Sundays. We'll have work to do, but it will be enjoyable and satisfying. We'll have friends, and holidays, and all the other nice stuff that happens on Earth.
Basically, like Eden before the fall. Adam had a job - looking after the garden - and although he spoke with God, he didn't spend all his time in perpetual prayer. Because that would be boring. We're still human, and humans like to have variation in their lives.

[Bohandas]

matthew 6:1-15

That link doesn't link anywhere

[Frumple]

... so it doesn't. Fixed.