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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[Telgin]

Also free will goes out the window when you consider he hardened Pharoahs heart like 10 times, presumably so God could get some firstborn killing in.

And on a slightly more rocky note, the whole "believe or burn for eternity" thing goes against free will. Eternal burnination, if real, would certainly fall under "under duress" and not really count as freely choosing to follow Christ. I know of a few people who are Christian purely out of fear of Hell.

Makes the whole "follow me out of your own choice" thing modern Christ has going on ring a little hollow.

I was one of those Christians for a long time and agree.

An interesting thing about the hardening of Pharoah's heart is that supposedly the original text blamed that on Ra and that later translations changed it to be God, presumably to deny that any other gods existed.

[Graknorke]

It's very much an existential and psychological salve to a lot of people throughout their life.

A friend sincerely said to me today, "My life is a mess, but it's okay because I'm Christian." It's an odd sentiment from the outside but makes sense internally I guess.

Also free will goes out the window when you consider he hardened Pharoahs heart like 10 times, presumably so God could get some firstborn killing in.

Wrong god, Ra was the one doing the hardening. Then it got retconned because monotheism.

[Loud Whispers]

The old Pascal's Wager has always been a tad abhorrent to me.

You feeling lucky, punk? Did I roast three cheeky nandos, or two?

[Cthulhu]

Also free will goes out the window when you consider he hardened Pharoahs heart like 10 times, presumably so God could get some firstborn killing in.

And on a slightly more rocky note, the whole "believe or burn for eternity" thing goes against free will. Eternal burnination, if real, would certainly fall under "under duress" and not really count as freely choosing to follow Christ. I know of a few people who are Christian purely out of fear of Hell.

Makes the whole "follow me out of your own choice" thing modern Christ has going on ring a little hollow.

There's a rabbi, I don't remember his name, who points out that there's obviously two conflicting histories going on, the Bible and empirical observations about the world.  If God exists and created the world then this is obviously intentional.  So which are we supposed to believe?  The book with talking animals and a six-thousand year earth or the brain that God gave us?

The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

Which leads into what I really think, which is that if God exists (I don't think he does) the only thing that makes sense is the universe is a test and the Bible is the wrong answer. 

[i2amroy]

The old Pascal's Wager has always been a tad abhorrent to me.

I love when people use it though, because it's the easiest thing to poke holes in. Simply introducing another god who may possibly be real (and who's belief is mutually exclusive) automatically zeroes out the whole gain chart, or alternatively propose the existence of a god of atheism, that rewards you in the afterlife for disbelieving in it à la Dresden Codak. (Sadly people seem to have caught onto that, so I don't get to whip out the refutations that often. )

[Cthulhu]

I don't believe in God but if I did I'd believe in the atheist God.  It's the only thing that makes sense anymore.

[Bohandas]

Also free will goes out the window when you consider he hardened Pharoahs heart like 10 times, presumably so God could get some firstborn killing in.

Wrong god, Ra was the one doing the hardening. Then it got retconned because monotheism.

It was neither. Eating too many deep-fried geese hardened the pharoah's heart.

EDIT:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1253842/The-sacred-junk-food-Egyptian-pharaohs.html

[lemon10]

Also free will goes out the window when you consider he hardened Pharoahs heart like 10 times, presumably so God could get some firstborn killing in.

And on a slightly more rocky note, the whole "believe or burn for eternity" thing goes against free will. Eternal burnination, if real, would certainly fall under "under duress" and not really count as freely choosing to follow Christ. I know of a few people who are Christian purely out of fear of Hell.

Makes the whole "follow me out of your own choice" thing modern Christ has going on ring a little hollow.

It doesn't actually seem to really be against free will to me. While it obviously shows that god *can* take away your free will if he chooses, these are the exception rather than the rule. So everyone that isn't the pharaoh does presumably have free will. Similarly, the fact that he could turn you into a fish if he wanted too doesn't make you any less human now. That all said, it was really a super dick thing to do.

[origamiscienceguy]

I think that pharaoh would have had a chance after the Israelites escaped.

If you read Exodus 14:
"Then the waters returned and covered the chariots, the horsemen, and all the army of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them. Not so much as one of them remained."
It says pharaoh's whole army died, but it doesn't specifically say he died. After seeing all the crazy stuff that happened, pharaoh may have had a change of heart. Even if he did die in the ocean, he believe God still would have given him a chance to change his heart on his own right before he died.

[lemon10]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So he had his chariot made ready and took his army with him. 7 He took six hundred of the best chariots, along with all the other chariots of Egypt, with officers over all of them. 8 The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly. 9 The Egyptians—all Pharaoh’s horses and chariots, horsemen[a] and troops—pursued the Israelites and overtook them as they camped by the sea near Pi Hahiroth, opposite Baal Zephon.

10 As Pharaoh approached, the Israelites looked up, and there were the Egyptians, marching after them. They were terrified and cried out to the Lord. 11 They said to Moses, “Was it because there were no graves in Egypt that you brought us to the desert to die? What have you done to us by bringing us out of Egypt? 12 Didn’t we say to you in Egypt, ‘Leave us alone; let us serve the Egyptians’? It would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than to die in the desert!”

13 Moses answered the people, “Do not be afraid. Stand firm and you will see the deliverance the Lord will bring you today. The Egyptians you see today you will never see again. 14 The Lord will fight for you; you need only to be still.”

15 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Why are you crying out to me? Tell the Israelites to move on. 16 Raise your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea to divide the water so that the Israelites can go through the sea on dry ground. 17 I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. 18 The Egyptians will know that I am the Lord when I gain glory through Pharaoh, his chariots and his horsemen.”

It doesn't seem to explicitly say that he killed them, but it does say that A) He was with the army (on the march at least), and moses said B) "I shall gain glory through the pharaoh and all his army", which strongly implies he will kill them all.

So while it *is* theoretically possible that he chose to turn around at the last instant (although I pretty sure god would have just "hardened his heart" again and made him keep going), I think the bible would have probably noted that he lived and broke off from his army beforehand.

That said, it doesn't really matter if he did survive, the actions he took against him before his death are far more dickish then simply killing him.

[origamiscienceguy]

I just found this in 1 Samuel 6:6

"Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did? When Israel's god dealt harshly with them, did they not send the Israelites out so they could go on their way?"

From this verse, it implies that pharaoh hardened his own heart. Perhaps one of the scenarios is a difficult translation. But that's interesting.

[Descan]

Lemon, I guess? Most often I've heard the free will argument more along the lines of "God doesn't/can't interfere in free will, that's why he can't [just show us he exists by appearing individually to every person]/[make everyone on Earth believe in him]/[make sure his book is translated correctly/written correctly]/[make sure everyone understands it correctly]/[etc]"

Which Pharoah being fucked with shows that yeah, no, he could do that, hell I even tossed in a few examples of ways he can "interfere with free will" without going all mind-probey.

[origamiscienceguy]

He's God, he can do whatever he wants. He gave us free will so he could love us. It's hard to love a robot.

[Graknorke]

It's hard to love a robot.

Let me tell you about a little thing called a 'waifu'...

[Descan]

That's a poor excuse, especially considering Hell, as I said originally.

Not much love involved in "You don't believe in me because [reasons, usually involving evidence (or lack there of), or being raised in a different religion]? THEN BURN!" "But you could just like... pop up and tell me I'm wrong! I'm okay with that! You don't even need to stick your godfinger in my brain!" "Nope. Hell."