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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[Grimlocke]

What both sides of the whole morality debate seem to keep forgetting, is that morality has been around since before any particular religion was introduced in a region, and was still around after it got supplanted by another or after religion no longer held the majority of the population.

Europe for instance did not start killing, stealing and adulterating much more or less after Christianity became widespread (mostly through decidedly immoral means by the way).


Oh, and 'objective morality' goes in the same category as 'objective best ice cream flavor'.

[TD1]

Christianity didn't begin violently necessarily. There was some tolerance of polytheists in places such as Athens - but, yet in others, places of worship were burned.

I think it's fairly safe to say that as it became more established it got more violent, but the original spread also had a lot to do with the shared culture of Greeks and Romans which allowed communication over vast distances - only two languages - and also the fact that quite a few pagans were getting miffed at their after life. Eternity as a ghost in Hades? They preferred the whole angelic paradise idea. Before Christianity they were trying to add "mysteries" into polytheism that gave a better afterlife, but not quickly enough it would seem.

[Bohandas]

Why DO people think the Bible/Quran/other religious books give an accurate description of reality?

Mindless tradition. I blame the fact that parents are given leeway to raise their children however they like

[Bohandas]

Christianity didn't begin violently necessarily. There was some tolerance of polytheists in places such as Athens - but, yet in others, places of worship were burned.

It did by virtue of being derived from Judiasm; from the old testament. That's where the true beginning of all the Abrahamic religions lay.

[Adragis]

I blame the fact that parents are given leeway to raise their children however they like

what

[TD1]

Christianity is the worship of Christ, with some God worship thrown in. Judaism is its father, but not it.

So, specifically speaking of Christianity, an individual sect of Abrahamic religion, it didn't start overly violently.

I blame the fact that parents are given leeway to raise their children however they like

what

Well, it is kinda true. Parents are allowed to bring up their children believing whatever religion they deem fit, not necessarily the truth. In bad cases it leads to extremism.

Not a reason for severing that parent-child connection I would say, though.

[Adragis]

I  think a more appropriate statement would be about how the parents influence beliefs, or something.

[martinuzz]

Christianity is the worship of Christ, with some God worship thrown in. Judaism is its father, but not it.

So, specifically speaking of Christianity, an individual sect of Abrahamic religion, it didn't start overly violently.

I blame the fact that parents are given leeway to raise their children however they like

what

Well, it is kinda true. Parents are allowed to bring up their children believing whatever religion they deem fit, not necessarily the truth. In bad cases it leads to extremism.

Not a reason for severing that parent-child connection I would say, though.

Nope, separating kids from their parents would be way too extreme. Now a rule that disallows religion for minors, just like alcohol and tobacco, would be an idea. Only teach people about the various world religions in the last years of highschool, in philosophy classes. Once they're eighteen, they're free to join any religion they like, or none at all.

[origamiscienceguy]

Christianity is the worship of Christ, with some God worship thrown in. Judaism is its father, but not it.

So, specifically speaking of Christianity, an individual sect of Abrahamic religion, it didn't start overly violently.

I blame the fact that parents are given leeway to raise their children however they like

what

Well, it is kinda true. Parents are allowed to bring up their children believing whatever religion they deem fit, not necessarily the truth. In bad cases it leads to extremism.

Not a reason for severing that parent-child connection I would say, though.

Nope, separating kids from their parents would be way too extreme. Now a rule that disallows religion for minors, just like alcohol and tobacco, would be an idea. Only teach people about religion in the last years of highschool, in philosophy classes. Once they're eighteen, they're free to join any religion they like, or none at all.

good luck.

[TD1]

Do you say "good luck" because you're against it, or because you think it's unlikely?

If the latter, then you're right. It is unlikely that parents won't attempt to teach their children what they see as the truth, despite it...perhaps...not being so, but were such a blanket ban to be introduced it would at least give some easily-manipulated-children-who-are-now-less-manipulatable-adults the chance to choose their own path, or to not choose one at all. Practices such as Sunday School - which, depending on your church, can be akin to indoctrination and at best gentle coercion - would no longer be legally valid. It may even promote tolerance if everyone chose their own faith. Also, it may promote tolerance in other ways - I distinctly remember a Sunday School teacher of mine laughing at Jews because they didn't believe in Jesus.

[Adragis]

It'd also mean the schools would teach non-religious points of view as absolute fact with no protest.

[origamiscienceguy]

Do you say "good luck" because you're against it, or because you think it's unlikely?

If the latter, then you're right. It is unlikely that parents won't attempt to teach their children what they see as the truth, despite it...perhaps...not being so, but were such a blanket ban to be introduced it would at least give some easily-manipulated-children-who-are-now-less-manipulatable-adults the chance to choose their own path, or to not choose one at all. Practices such as Sunday School - which, depending on your church, can be akin to indoctrination and at best gentle coercion - would no longer be legally valid. It may even promote tolerance if everyone chose their own faith. Also, it may promote tolerance in other ways - I distinctly remember a Sunday School teacher of mine laughing at Jews because they didn't believe in Jesus.

I said it sarcastically because I knew it wouldn't happen. You'd piss off about 85% of the world.

[TD1]

It'd also mean the schools would teach non-religious points of view as absolute fact with no protest.

The schools would teach fact, you mean? They could throw in the odd bit of "this religion thinks this, though, and this one that" if they wanted.

Do you say "good luck" because you're against it, or because you think it's unlikely?

If the latter, then you're right. It is unlikely that parents won't attempt to teach their children what they see as the truth, despite it...perhaps...not being so, but were such a blanket ban to be introduced it would at least give some easily-manipulated-children-who-are-now-less-manipulatable-adults the chance to choose their own path, or to not choose one at all. Practices such as Sunday School - which, depending on your church, can be akin to indoctrination and at best gentle coercion - would no longer be legally valid. It may even promote tolerance if everyone chose their own faith. Also, it may promote tolerance in other ways - I distinctly remember a Sunday School teacher of mine laughing at Jews because they didn't believe in Jesus.

I said it sarcastically because I knew it wouldn't happen. You'd piss off about 85% of the world.

I would. And wouldn't it be glorious? Sometimes, for advancement, people need to be peeved off.

Edit: Though, I must say it shows a certain insecurity in your faith's validity if you don't think non-indoctrinated children would choose it.

[Adragis]

It's more how saying atheism is fact and then saying 'yo hav the religuns' is kinda, well, indoctrination.

[TD1]

No, it's saying there are many religions. Here is what we know. Here is what religions say. You're now mature, pick.

As opposed to:

There is one true religion. This is what it says. You'd better stick with it, or hell/associated companies.