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Author Topic: Paid Mods -- Round 4: McGregor vs mAAAyweather  (Read 95265 times)

AlleeCat

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #240 on: April 24, 2015, 10:49:32 pm »

Kickstarter is a service where you pay for a game that is still in development. I generally don't use Kickstarter because it's about the same as pre-orders.

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #241 on: April 24, 2015, 10:49:58 pm »

It has a nasty reputation for failing to deliver, same as greenlight/early-access.
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Putnam

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #242 on: April 24, 2015, 10:51:19 pm »

Kickstarter is a service where you pay for a game that is still in development. I generally don't use Kickstarter because it's about the same as pre-orders.

No, not even remotely. You're not paying for the game, you're paying to help fund the game. It's a pretty big misunderstanding to think that backer rewards are the entire point as opposed to a simple incentive.

BurnedToast

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #243 on: April 24, 2015, 11:04:43 pm »

3. I don't understand what you mean here - my point was that games in general have a hobbyist community, a professional community, and a blurred line inbetween and eveything seems to work just fine anyway. Why are mods different?
It's largely because mods generally have a very significant degree of interrelation, and to a very extreme degree have reached the state they're in now because of just that. You don't have many games regularly borrowing code and content from other games, whereas that is (was, if this keeps mucking things up as badly as it seems to be) standard operating procedure for modding. That makes everything involved with this significantly more complicated, and the way valve has gone about this has inserted some very poisonous incentives into the general community.

Basically, mods exist as robustly as they do now more or less strictly because there wasn't a professional community worth any note. There was no line to blur, and by and large the modding scene flourished because of that. Now there's a line to blur, and it was introduced in a bloody terrible way.

And yeah, if the game developer allows it, it's the modder's right to ask for payment if they so please. There's just, y'know, consequences for that that a lot of people are finding unpleasant. You can call it selfish, but when people have spent literally decades building and supporting a community that didn't have those consequences, and did so under the (perhaps naive, sure, whatever) expectation that they weren't going to exist, well... I'm not quite sure that's the right word for it.

I understand now, you've given me something to think about.


How do you know someone won't steal your content to use in an actual game right now?


Because the mods in question rely on the content of the existing games they're based off of in order to run. If you manage to strip off enough of my input to make it function as part of a standalone game, all you really have are a bunch of engine-specific strings that are simple enough to be public domain.

Fair enough for scripts, however the problem remains for things like models, textures, audio, etc. How does a given modder know that it won't be stolen right now?

If I make a script, why do you think you are automatically entitled to use it for free? If I want to sell it, should't that be my right?

This is the exact attitude I'm talking about. You feel you are entitled to use the stuff I made without paying because... reasons?

If you want a script for your mod, and don't want to buy the one I made... find a free alternative or make your own?

I feel entitled to not pay for your mod because your are entitled to not pay for my mod, and in theory we're supposed to be working off of each other in order to better ourselves. Regardless, would you like it if I payed for your mod, and then rereleased it alongside my own work as free content?

It's an uncircumventable wedge between modders.

1. But that's just some sort of unofficial agreement you're trying to force on people. Why should it work that way, just because that's how you personally want it to work? If I want to charge for the  things I've made, why shouldn't I be allowed to? Because you don't want to pay for it?

2. If the licence agreement for my mod said you could reuse it in your own mod, then I would have absolutely no problem at all with this. If it did not permit it, then I would be mad. 
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Morrigi

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #244 on: April 24, 2015, 11:34:14 pm »

It has a nasty reputation for failing to deliver, same as greenlight/early-access.
Apparently, as of last year, their community manager made a number of blatantly racist posts on twitter

Edit: accuracy
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 11:49:28 pm by Morrigi »
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Leyic

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #245 on: April 24, 2015, 11:39:55 pm »

...unofficial agreement...
You mean a social contract? One that's existed since the days of Morrowind Source some 13-14 years ago? Sharing and attributing work has been the status quo for some time now. The idea that everything should be monetizable is the new* contract that's being foisted upon the community. (*Actually not that new. This same argument was had when Dink Smallwood came out. That was 16 years ago, well before Morrowind.)

Anyhow, I brought up Kickstarter because there was an infamous case on these very forums where a hobbyist game dev and member of the community decided to use Kickstarter to monetize their work. Then real life happened and they fell into their hobbyist habits. The "customers" became mad, the dev became frustrated, and the whole mess turned into a death spiral that Toady had to moderate. The poor guy was pretty much ostracized from the community, and wound up with less money than before the Kickstarter due to refunds. Pretty much the same thing happened to Chesko but at super speed and without the refunds since Valve wouldn't agree to those. The same thing is going to happen to a bunch of other modders who don't understand what they're getting into, and no one wins from these situations (except Valve and Bethesda who have their loot). But as long as the potential for superstar profits exists, modders will be attracted to those like moths to a flame, and the whole community contracts and deteriorates as a result.

Ultimately I suppose it's more of a human behavior problem overall. As long as a modder goes into this treating it like a business venture, they might actually do well; but as I keep saying, your average hobbyist isn't prepared to do this. Since Valve doesn't feel any responsibility to support these modders, they're effectively setting up a lot of people for miserable failure, and that's not going to help make the community a better place.

Propman

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #246 on: April 24, 2015, 11:54:59 pm »


I understand now, you've given me something to think about.


How do you know someone won't steal your content to use in an actual game right now?


Because the mods in question rely on the content of the existing games they're based off of in order to run. If you manage to strip off enough of my input to make it function as part of a standalone game, all you really have are a bunch of engine-specific strings that are simple enough to be public domain.

Fair enough for scripts, however the problem remains for things like models, textures, audio, etc. How does a given modder know that it won't be stolen right now?


In reality, I can't, but as Ispil stated, the possibility to sue was at least an option under the old system if they did figure out; not to mention it happens with less frequency under the old system due to money being an arguably lesser excentive.

If I make a script, why do you think you are automatically entitled to use it for free? If I want to sell it, should't that be my right?

This is the exact attitude I'm talking about. You feel you are entitled to use the stuff I made without paying because... reasons?

If you want a script for your mod, and don't want to buy the one I made... find a free alternative or make your own?

I feel entitled to not pay for your mod because your are entitled to not pay for my mod, and in theory we're supposed to be working off of each other in order to better ourselves. Regardless, would you like it if I payed for your mod, and then rereleased it alongside my own work as free content?

It's an uncircumventable wedge between modders.

1. But that's just some sort of unofficial agreement you're trying to force on people. Why should it work that way, just because that's how you personally want it to work? If I want to charge for the  things I've made, why shouldn't I be allowed to? Because you don't want to pay for it?

2. If the licence agreement for my mod said you could reuse it in your own mod, then I would have absolutely no problem at all with this. If it did not permit it, then I would be mad. 

I will not try to tell you whether or not to sell your mod, but I'm afraid you're forcing on the modding community something that is detrimental to us as a people, and for a monetary advantage that you might not completely understand.

Your system makes doing my job harder because even if I don't want to associate with your mods, I still have to be on constant lookout to make sure that my own works aren't snatched by less ethical people and sold to the workshop. That's time taken off of actual modding work unless I wanted to hire someone else to do that for me; it either degrades the quality of my hobby, or forces me to pay money for it that I didn't have to pay any time prior. Am I selfish for not wanting to deal with this? Perhaps, but you're equally selfish for putting me through this system and now arguably making money at my expense. The system from before might have had that issue, but not at the rate that the new system has amplified it.

Also, if your liscensing agreement allowed me to release a dirivative for it free in the first place, what was the point of attempting to sell it? What's to stop somebody from extracting your works from my mod and releasing it for open source? At that rate, you wouldn't likely extract any revenue of note from your mod, which is allegedly the whole reason you're supporting this system in the first place.

Yet ultimately it doesn't matter what you want or what I want; what matters is that now you can't use my work anymore because you've gone the payed route, and you also can't use the work of the likeminded people of my "class" because we don't want you selling our work for the opinions I've expressed prior. The friction experienced between me and you is the same friction that's tearing the modding community apart (which is the worst effect of this movement, in my opinion), and I fear it's already too late to put it back together again.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 11:58:35 pm by Propman »
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Quote from: from Pathos on April 07, 2010, 08:29:05 pm »
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Zrk2

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #247 on: April 25, 2015, 12:40:09 am »

RIP mods. I am incredibly unexcited for this.
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Putnam

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #248 on: April 25, 2015, 12:49:12 am »

since it's sort of my world burning, yeah, it's not too melodramatic

Propman

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #249 on: April 25, 2015, 12:51:31 am »

Mine as well. Hard to not get worked up when you're directly effected by this, though apologies for any uncivil conduct on my part.
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Quote from: from Pathos on April 07, 2010, 08:29:05 pm »
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Bohandas

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #250 on: April 25, 2015, 01:04:55 am »

Also, if any of you own Skyrim on Steam, please write negative reviews of it. If you've already reviewed it, change it to negative; I did.
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Putnam

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #251 on: April 25, 2015, 01:06:02 am »

no

there's protesting and then there's burning the building down

also SkyUI's next update is paid

that's LITERALLY THE WORST-CASE SCENARIO HOLY CRAP
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 01:08:24 am by Putnam »
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Propman

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #252 on: April 25, 2015, 01:36:11 am »

Quote from: r0ckfan
"SkyUI is utilizing TweenLite, a high-performance tweening library (http://www.greensock.com/tweenlite/). Thanks to Jack Doyle and his team for creating it and allowing us to use it under their No Charge license."

Now, here's what the greensock website says.

"You may use the code at no charge in commercial or non-commercial apps, web sites, games, components, and other software as long as end users are not charged a fee of any kind to use your product or gain access to any part of it. If your client pays you a one-time fee to create the site/product, that's perfectly fine and qualifies under the "no charge" license. If end users are charged a usage/access/license fee, please sign up for a "Business Green" Club GreenSock membership which comes with a comprehensive commercial license. See http://greensock.com/club/ for details."

Are you sure about that statement?
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Quote from: from Pathos on April 07, 2010, 08:29:05 pm »
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Bohandas

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #253 on: April 25, 2015, 01:36:54 am »

Also, if any of you own Skyrim on Steam, please write negative reviews of it. If you've already reviewed it, change it to negative; I did.
no

there's protesting and then there's burning the building down

They've sown the wind and now they must reap the whirlwind >:(
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 01:40:09 am by Bohandas »
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alway

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #254 on: April 25, 2015, 01:37:43 am »

no

there's protesting and then there's burning the building down

also SkyUI's next update is paid

that's LITERALLY THE WORST-CASE SCENARIO HOLY CRAP
You mean the update that wouldn't have existed if there wasn't a paid option to incentivize it, because the creator got tired of working on it? The one whose free version is and always will be around?
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