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[martinuzz]

I take it that you are a military professional then? I mean, EU army doesn't mean reinstitution of involuntary military service. Modern armies don't want conscripts. They need trained and dedicated professionals.

And if you are a military professional, surely you understand that you can't defend your own country on your own in this modern world? You're gonna need Brussels, Portugal and Greece to come to your aid if ever the shit would hit the Fin. Reciprocity is no more than reasonable in my opinion.

[scriver]

Yeah the thing is that it's less likely to mean coming to the aid of Portugal or Greece than protecting French fishing armada as they plunder the African coastline.

[Sheb]

Yeah the thing is that it's less likely to mean coming to the aid of Portugal or Greece than protecting French fishing armada as they plunder the African coastline.

I have a lot of faith in any European's army ability to be too stuck in red tape and German guilt to do anything until Europe is attacked.

[Erkki]

I take it that you are a military professional then? I mean, EU army doesn't mean reinstitution of involuntary military service. Modern armies don't want conscripts. They need trained and dedicated professionals.

Are you expert on the subject? Dedicated professionals are cool and everything, but artillery shells dont really care about how trained someone is and even a highly trained, highly capable and motivated person can only be in one place at a time. Thus, numbers still mean, unless one only plans to do peacekeeping.

And if you are a military professional, surely you understand that you can't defend your own country on your own in this modern world? You're gonna need Brussels, Portugal and Greece to come to your aid if ever the shit would hit the Fin. Reciprocity is no more than reasonable in my opinion.

We've been doing just fine almost solely alone for the past hundred years. Finland is currently militarily one of the strongest nations in Europe(ignoring navies, wartime strength in men and equipment behind only France, Germany and Greece, about a tie with Italy), and likely relative to population size the second strongest in the world after Israel. With largest and most modern artillery of the continent. And I'm not even an arty guy so no branch pride there. The trained, working age reserve is well over a million men, although the initial intended wartime strength is smaller than that.

But, a country needs to be all of that be if it wishes to live next to the drunken bear.

I am pro NATO myself, but against anything that involves EU and armed forces or defences in the same sentence. Currently support for joining NATO stands at something like 25 % so I believe it is highly unlikely that we will be joining any kind of military alliance any soon, including EU's own, and every and each political party avoids the topic like plague.

[martinuzz]

I take it that you are a military professional then? I mean, EU army doesn't mean reinstitution of involuntary military service. Modern armies don't want conscripts. They need trained and dedicated professionals.

Are you expert on the subject? Dedicated professionals are cool and everything, but artillery shells dont really care about how trained someone is and even a highly trained, highly capable and motivated person can only be in one place at a time. Thus, numbers still mean, unless one only plans to do peacekeeping.

I'm no military expert. I do know politics however. Reinstitution of a draft in peacetime will never happen, simply because it won't get past any national parliament.
Wartime draft is another matter. In that horrible scenario, I'd rather stand with my allies than stand alone.

[Erkki]

I'm no military expert. I do know politics however. Reinstitution of a draft in peacetime will never happen, simply because it won't get past any national parliament.
Wartime draft is another matter. In that horrible scenario, I'd rather stand with my allies than stand alone.

Wartime draft is another matter indeed, as it takes at least six months to train a rifleman or some other basic job. And much longer than that for leaders and other more advanced jobs, and even that will require an large, experienced and already existing training system that very few countries in Europe still have. For countries like France the existence-threatening conflict is IMHO likely to be over before they manage to show the first draftee which way to point the gun or how to tie their shoe laces. 

[Sheb]

Questions, do you also oppose the kind of joint european effort for some specialized tasks (airlift for exemple) that are being develloped?

[smjjames]

Questions, do you also oppose the kind of joint european effort for some specialized tasks (airlift for exemple) that are being develloped?

Isn't there already NATO for that? Then again, I don't think Finland is in NATO. Of course, I'm just an American interjecting my opinion into European affairs.

[martinuzz]

1 year ago I would have said, yes, NATO suffices. Since Trump has been elected however, we need to deal with the real possibility that NATO's integrity has been compromised, and a backup plan might be in order.

[ChairmanPoo]

So, you're against military intervention abroad yet do want someone else to do a military intervention abroad on your behalf. Right.

By the way, I notice that you didn't answer whether you were part of your country's armed forces. I'm kind of curious about that, considering your hawk lobby advocacy: when you demand military interventions, is it actually you on the line of fire? Or are you asking to send someone else to solve the situation for you?

[scriver]

For the record, the only country I'd be willing to create a common army with would be Finland, as they are our shield against Russia anyway and it would only be right of if we reinforced it.

I really don't support a NATO membership but I'd still prefer that over an EU army.

Yeah the thing is that it's less likely to mean coming to the aid of Portugal or Greece than protecting French fishing armada as they plunder the African coastline.

I have a lot of faith in any European's army ability to be too stuck in red tape and German guilt to do anything until Europe is attacked.

And they say Greece was too wasteful with their money...

Questions, do you also oppose the kind of joint european effort for some specialized tasks (airlift for exemple) that are being develloped?

What are they lifting?

Questions, do you also oppose the kind of joint european effort for some specialized tasks (airlift for exemple) that are being develloped?

Isn't there already NATO for that? Then again, I don't think Finland is in NATO. Of course, I'm just an American interjecting my opinion into European affairs.

Don't worry, if we didn't have any Americans interjecting themselves into European affairs this thread would be compromised 90% of me taking pot shots at Germans just to annoy Helgoland.

We only hold your intersections against you when we get upset.

So, you're against military intervention abroad yet do want someone else to do a military intervention abroad on your behalf. Right.

By the way, I notice that you didn't answer whether you were part of your country's armed forces. I'm kind of curious about that, considering your hawk lobby advocacy: when you demand military interventions, is it actually you on the line of fire? Or are you asking to send someone else to solve the situation for you?

Who are you directing this at?

[ChairmanPoo]

Erkki. He was advocating European invasion of Lybia (and other neighbouring nations) a few pages ago. Now it kind of seems he wants *other* Europeans to invade Lybia (or wherever) for him. I find it darkly amusing.

[Sheb]

Some of those cooperations initiative are going through NATOs (Lixe the Luxemburg Air Force), other don't involve NATO but are done within the EU, and all are usually ad-hoc and also open to partner countries. (Like the Strategic Airlift Capability is a NATO initiative, but Sweden and Finland who aren't NATO countries are participating).

[smjjames]

Questions, do you also oppose the kind of joint european effort for some specialized tasks (airlift for exemple) that are being develloped?

What are they lifting?

Food I guess? Though airlift isn't a specialized task that I'd think of, it'd be like special forces, like Seal Team 6.

Questions, do you also oppose the kind of joint european effort for some specialized tasks (airlift for exemple) that are being develloped?

Isn't there already NATO for that? Then again, I don't think Finland is in NATO. Of course, I'm just an American interjecting my opinion into European affairs.

Don't worry, if we didn't have any Americans interjecting themselves into European affairs this thread would be compromised 90% of me taking pot shots at Germans just to annoy Helgoland.

We only hold your intersections against you when we get upset.

Lol

Erkki. He was advocating European invasion of Lybia (and other neighbouring nations) a few pages ago. Now it kind of seems he wants *other* Europeans to invade Lybia (or wherever) for him. I find it darkly amusing.

That was Panzerfaust, not Erkki.

[Digital Hellhound]

As a fellow Finn and fellow Finnish conscript - I'd be proud to defend Europe as a whole. I do feel like I have a lot in common with Europeans at the other end of the EU, I do wish for increased European military cooperation. But... yeah. I don't have a lot of faith the rest of the EU would actually defend us in case of attack. I don't have faith in our fellow Nordics helping out, either - Nordic military alliance is another common proposal, but historically it's never worked out. Sweden has, in the past, valued its neutrality over its neighbors.

In an ideal world Europe would band together for protection. Doubt we live in that world. NATO doesn't seem worthwhile either, especially with Trump in charge.