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Author Topic: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread  (Read 1002037 times)

smjjames

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7395 on: December 22, 2017, 01:32:57 pm »

The pro-independence parties lost two seats cumulatively, so, the majority is actually slightly smaller than previously. And I was speaking metaphorically.
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scriver

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7396 on: December 22, 2017, 02:02:36 pm »

Here are some questions I'd like to know about the Catalan independence movement:

I'd try approaching the Catalan independence movement rather than bay12. Just a suggestion.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7397 on: December 22, 2017, 02:44:57 pm »

Half of the Catalan population don't want independence. If independence would be so great for Catalonia, why can't Pudgemount & pals sell the independence idea to them? Are they doing this the British way?
Most issues in democracies lie with how an idea can be sold, not the merits of the idea. Consider how in the Thirteen Colonies, the Independence faction back then had the support of 40-45% of White Americans, but looking at the USA today (or perhaps, the USA a couple of years ago) you would be hard pressed to argue against the idea that independence brought great benefits.
As to the actual merits of Catalonian Independence, I am not qualified to answer this. If you ask me, there's no use in gaining independence from Madrid but not Berlin lmao, but again, I do not represent Catalonians.

Here are some questions I'd like to know about the Catalan independence movement:
Why should Catalonia become independent? ("Spain sucks" is not a satisfactory answer.)
Greater autonomy (not absolute, because EU), a sovereign Catalonian government would be able to promote Catalonian culture & language without treading on any toes in Spain, Catalonia would not be subject to Madrid-loyal police and military presence. There are other reasons Catalonian ppl would argue about, but imo the former three are objective reasons in favour of independence.

What would independent Catalonia be like? (Realistically. "Member of the EU" is not realistic, unless Catalans manage to sell their independence idea to Spain first.)
A small but moderately wealthy nation with a small maritime presence with close links to the EU. I think it is more unrealistic to expect that the EU would allow an independent and pro-EU state like Catalonia to remain in the Meditteranean, it is simply too important, easy and beneficial for the EU to incorporate a state that has already been a member. Thus while it is possible Spain could continually retard EU efforts to keep Catalonia out, EU-Catalonian cooperation would bind the latter state in so many treaties it would be mostly irrelevant whether they were an official member or not - they'd bed de facto a member of most EU institutions. Could divided Spain really stand up to Italy, France & Germany? Not likely, especially since the EU could just keep continually trying to incorporate Catalonia until Spain failed. Spain only needs to fail once.

They want independence, but want to be part of the EU as well. How much more independence would this get them really?
Not that much, but it would change their relationship with the world. For example, within the EU their relationship would change, Barcelona would represent them within the EU instead of Madrid. They would be allowed to develop their own military infrastructure & policy, they would be free from the authority of the Spanish Constitution & Constitutional Court, allowing them to propose & implement legislature in accordance with their own newly adopted principles or constitution. There is also the option that even if Catalonian independence is not desired by the majority of Catalonians, Catalonians do not want the Madrid government to take their hesitancy as tacit approval to ignore their calls for greater autonomy. Thus the threat of independence can be used as a tool, to prove to Madrid that they are serious and if their autonomy requests are denied, may result in full blow independence attempts.

Honestly, it seems to me the pro-independence agitators are just that. Petty politicians who have nothing better to do than try to grab more power for themselves.
It could be so, but you must look beyond the scheming of petty politicians to also grasp that many ordinary people are more than willing to be used by petty politicians if it means they can in turn use petty politicians for their own ends. Look at how in the USA these people like Clinton and Trump can openly declare their ambitions, and they will win the support of millions, if those millions believe it will sow discord into their enemies & rivals.
What I argue is that petty politicians are not the sole root of any problem, acting as a catalyst to problems already existing. If the multitude of any peoples had few problems to protest, how would petty power mongerers have any power? With no support, they are just a boring office worker. With support, they become a leader. If Madrid can solve the grievances of Catalonians, the support for independence from centrist Catalonians will fade.

If the only thing the Catalan parliament does is organize an independence referendum once a year, it serves no purpose.
But is not a change to the structure better than burning it down? :P

redwallzyl

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7398 on: December 23, 2017, 12:37:06 am »

I am very much in conflict to LWs opinions in general on stuff. He seems to be obsessed with the idea of sovereignty to an odd extent. I am of the opinion that craving off bits just because your unhappy is not a very good move and that the opposite should be happening in most circumstances. the whole situation is just people wanting more power, lots of different people on different sides. of course its also too many people interest too keep the conflict going so as to remain in power by using it for support. The constant enemy that you don't want to actually beat so you can blame them for everything. Their are of course lots of people who got caught if in nationalistic romanticism or think this will help them in some way, they are mostly wrong in that.
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hector13

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7399 on: December 23, 2017, 08:02:04 am »

Their are of course lots of people who got caught if in nationalistic romanticism or think this will help them in some way, they are mostly wrong in that.

Er... citation needed.

Rajoy has shown he doesn’t have the interests of the Catalans at heart, ‘cause he kicked the shit out of them for something he could very easily after the fact have said “nah, bro, doesn’t count” and the Catalans in this election reducing the number of seats his party has to three, while maintaining a separatist majority, with the largest party being separate from that, but supporters of more power for the region.

A small group of people in a government cannot represent millions of people, it’s impossible. This is why you get nationalist movements, movements for more devolution. Party politics is stupid, and career politicians are shit.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7400 on: December 23, 2017, 09:00:38 am »

Their are of course lots of people who got caught if in nationalistic romanticism or think this will help them in some way, they are mostly wrong in that.

Er... citation needed.

Rajoy has shown he doesn’t have the interests of the Catalans at heart, ‘cause he kicked the shit out of them for something he could very easily after the fact have said “nah, bro, doesn’t count” and the Catalans in this election reducing the number of seats his party has to three, while maintaining a separatist majority, with the largest party being separate from that, but supporters of more power for the region.

A small group of people in a government cannot represent millions of people, it’s impossible. This is why you get nationalist movements, movements for more devolution. Party politics is stupid, and career politicians are shit.
Quote
with the largest party being separate from that, but supporters of more power for the region.
You're badly misreading Ciudadanos.  They are very much not in support of more self goverment for Catalonia. For all practical intent and purposes they are a radical splinter of the PP, and have been the foremost defenders of police actions during the first of October
The good news is that their "growth"  has been mostly at the expense of the PP, so no cryptofascist inflation, thank the heavens.



If these elections prove anything is that neither the secesionists nor the unionists are going to go away anytime soon, so they should sit down and negotiate.  Not that it's going to happen,...
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7401 on: December 23, 2017, 09:27:26 am »

I am very much in conflict to LWs opinions in general on stuff. He seems to be obsessed with the idea of sovereignty to an odd extent.
No worries, this is just a consequence of us thinking differently. Bay12 is good then, in allowing conflict without conflict :P

I am of the opinion that craving off bits just because your unhappy is not a very good move and that the opposite should be happening in most circumstances. the whole situation is just people wanting more power, lots of different people on different sides. of course its also too many people interest too keep the conflict going so as to remain in power by using it for support. The constant enemy that you don't want to actually beat so you can blame them for everything. Their are of course lots of people who got caught if in nationalistic romanticism or think this will help them in some way, they are mostly wrong in that.
We are in agreement on the first part. Carving off of bits of pre-existing states just because you're unhappy is not a very good move. That does not mean the opposite should be happening, nor is unhappiness the sole justification for any of these movements, from Catalan to China. The latter part is just entirely wrong in regards to Catalonia, at least in so far as the Catalonians do not gain any power by prolonging the conflict, and do not desire to prolong the conflict.

Ametsala

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7402 on: December 23, 2017, 05:02:25 pm »

The pro-independence parties lost two seats cumulatively, so, the majority is actually slightly smaller than previously. And I was speaking metaphorically.

Sorry... I'm just getting fed up of something so unnecessary filling up the news again and again...  ::)

What I wouldn't mind reading in the news for a change is them finally deciding to sit down and negotiate, like ChairmanPoo brought up.

But I don't think it's going to happen without a few more rounds of merry-go-round first either...

Here are some questions I'd like to know about the Catalan independence movement:

I'd try approaching the Catalan independence movement rather than bay12. Just a suggestion.

I don't really care that much :) And I've got a feeling those guys would use a lot more and a lot fancier words than the good reply LW wrote, and that their answer would also paint a paradise-like picture of independent Catalonia.

I don't feel like either side has acted particularly grown up so far. Pro-independence Catalans keep antagonizing Spain, even though they know that independence for Catalonia would at best mean a slightly larger cut of their taxes remaining in their territory (which would then be used for border control, military, and whatever else is currently organized by Spain), while Spain could easily just ignore them or, even better, open talks about Catalonia's autonomy starting from the original Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia of 2006 and negotiating the unacceptable points instead of having the Constitutional Court rewrite the thing.

I hope EU leaders are also getting fed up with the Catalan question and someone finds the time from Brexit, immigration, Poland, Hungary, Trump, Putin, and all the other stuff on their desk to force the children to sit on the same table and discuss the issue in constructive manner. (not gonna hold my breath)

While waiting for that to happen, I guess I'm off to ask google how to become an Olympian. Not sure if it'll tell me about how to become a deity or an athlete. I'm hoping for the former, but the latter is cool too.

(Though really I need to unpack and pack. We just got home from my gf's folks today, and we're heading to my folks tomorrow for a slightly different set of x-mas food.)

-----
Edit: Speaking of Catalonia, The Guardian just published an opinion by a Spanish writer and journalist summing up the current situation.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 05:36:09 pm by Ametsala »
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scriver

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7403 on: December 23, 2017, 05:36:09 pm »

I guess it bears reiterating that the only reason the Catalan nationalists are even talking about separation in the first place is because Madrid has completely refused to deliver or even discuss the self-governmental authorities Catalonia was promised back then.
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martinuzz

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7404 on: December 23, 2017, 06:01:58 pm »

The Netherlands is sick and tired of New Year's Eve having turned into a 'throw heavy illegal fireworks at emergency workers and unsuspecting people night'.
The Public prosecutor's office has declared that this year, throwing fireworks will not lead to a misdemeanor charge or fine, but instead will be treated as attempted manslaughter, and that will be the legal charge you face for being drunk rowdy idiots.
Expect a lot of 15 year old kids in jail next year.
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

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Helgoland

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7405 on: December 23, 2017, 11:37:38 pm »

Throwing fireworks used to be a misdemeanor? And throwing them at emergency workers too? D:
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martinuzz

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7406 on: December 24, 2017, 03:17:50 am »

Not if the emergency workers actually got injured. But if not, yeah, misdemeanor.

Scary stuff, illegal fireworks. Police confiscated a batch of 'firecrackers' this year with thrice the explosive force of a handgrenade.
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Dorsidwarf

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7407 on: December 24, 2017, 12:17:23 pm »

Seems strange to go for attempted manslaughter rather than assault with a deadly weapon. Isn't the key part of manslaughter that you didn't mean to kill them, anyway? How can you attempt to accidentally kill someone?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7408 on: December 24, 2017, 12:27:06 pm »

Seems strange to go for attempted manslaughter rather than assault with a deadly weapon. Isn't the key part of manslaughter that you didn't mean to kill them, anyway? How can you attempt to accidentally kill someone?
Usually applies to the actions of complete morons. For example in the USA, the youths who dropped rocks on overpasses over highways. Their intention was to ruin someone's car, their effect was to make drivers crash 80mph into slabs of concrete. They attempted manslaughter, which is much the same with these firework people. It's probable they only want to seriously maim the emergency workers, not kill them, but the effect is what you'd expect from throwing explosives at anyone. Morons + power

scriver

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7409 on: December 24, 2017, 12:36:46 pm »

Manslaughter, in English legalese, is the action of causing lethal consequences (or in attempted manslaughter's case, causing very lethal situation) without having had murderous intent, right?
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