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Author Topic: Things that made you mildly upset today thread  (Read 855468 times)

TD1

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Re: Things that made you mildly upset today thread
« Reply #9645 on: February 13, 2022, 04:11:30 pm »

Wow we don't have an "angry" thread?  I'm not mildly upset, I'm livid.
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Re: Things that made you mildly upset today thread
« Reply #9646 on: February 13, 2022, 06:48:23 pm »

It's tragic because nowadays every major religious group seem infested by demagogues trying to do the opposite.

It's the only way those religions can survive. Any scientific mindset would eventually reveal the evidence against the existence of God to the follower. The more moderate branches have mostly died out for this reason.

It's basic memetics unfortunately.

That does explain why Muslims and Catholics went exctinct decades ago.
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heydude6

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Re: Things that made you mildly upset today thread
« Reply #9647 on: February 13, 2022, 08:28:59 pm »

Okay. It seems like people weren't satisfied with my attempts to give a simple and concise explanation, so I guess I have to give a longer explanation.

The biggest blow to Christianity happened when Darwin published his theory of evolution in the Origin of Species. It directly disproved the concept of intelligent design and gave an answer to the question of "How can there be so many diverse and complex forms of life?" that didn't rely on the existence of God. This question was a big deal back then because prior to evolution, it seemed like such an absurd and impossible fact of existence that "an Omnipotent Deity did it" was seen as the only viable explanation. The church knew the threat Evolution posed, which was why they did everything they could to suppress it, just like they tried with the printing press way back when (If only the church knew how to copy oil company tactics).

The second biggest blow to Christianity was the information age/Internet. The church has always relied on the ignorance of the populace to draw its power, which was why they tried to suppress the printing press (giving absurd reasons for why the printing press was 'satanic'). Now knowledge was at the fingertips of almost anyone and subsequently we've been seeing a decline in Religion in the West.

As part of my previous oversimplification, I said that a reasonable and scientifically minded person would inevitably discover evidence that contradicted the existence of God. That's not really true. Due to the fact that God is in many ways outside of science, you won't find any evidence that directly refutes his existence. What you will find though is evidence against a given church's Dogma or interpretation of God. Young Earth creationism is contradicted by the fossil record, the theory of evolution, and the fact that scientists know the earth is actually quite old. We know God isn't an all-loving interventionist because he does not do enough to help with the problem of evil. You've also got circumstantial evidence against the church being correct due to knowledge of its shady history.

That's not the most important thing though. As science has progressed, we've relied less and less on religion to answer our common everyday questions. We now know where the rain comes from, why people get sick, the mundane origins for awe-inspiring events like earthquakes and hurricanes, and we even figured out most of the stuff involving the origin of life, our planet, and the universe. God may still be real but the truth is that we don't need him as much as we used to. And as a result, more and more people are choosing to go without him.

In regards to your most recent statement Iduno, I apologize for using absolutist language. Again, I had oversimplified. The moderate branches have not died out, but they are dying. It's a fact that churches have been losing followers and many of them have shut down as a result. Buildings that have lasted centuries are now being demolished to build condominiums. This has been happening since before the Pandemic. The fundamentalist churches have been more resilient to this trend for the reasons that I outlined previously.

Islam on the other hand is actually growing last time I checked. This growth is happening in the middle east though, but that's due to a combination of political instability and the efforts of theocratic governments. Over there, there are more important things to worry about than the question of whether God exists or not. Plus, the people really need the hope religion provides.



TLDR: For most of human history, there wasn't much evidence against God, but modern technology has accelerated the spread of this evidence once it became available. Now Christianity is dying, but fundies are doing it more slowly. Currently much of the Middle-East is far from being a bastion of free-thought and discovery.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2022, 08:38:46 pm by heydude6 »
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Re: Things that made you mildly upset today thread
« Reply #9648 on: February 13, 2022, 09:15:03 pm »

The biggest blow to Christianity happened when Darwin published his theory of evolution in the Origin of Species. It directly disproved the concept of intelligent design

I take it you've never been to the US. Darwin is considered a dirty communist and Intelligent Design is more beloved than evolution.
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heydude6

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Re: Things that made you mildly upset today thread
« Reply #9649 on: February 13, 2022, 09:19:04 pm »

And that's why religion is still strong there. That is literally the thesis of my previous quote. Religions that reject science survive longer than religions that don't.
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hector13

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Re: Things that made you mildly upset today thread
« Reply #9650 on: February 13, 2022, 10:42:21 pm »

Quote
Islam on the other hand is actually growing last time I checked. This growth is happening in the middle east though, but that's due to a combination of political instability and the efforts of theocratic governments. Over there, there are more important things to worry about than the question of whether God exists or not. Plus, the people really need the hope religion provides.

I would put it to you that the reason Islam is growing in the Middle East isn’t because of the hope it provides people, but rather the theocratic governments you mentioned rather requiring people to at least appear to be Muslim. People are joining not because they have seen the light, but because they don’t want to be disappeared in the darkness. For example, a mob in Pakistan recently beat a man to death for blasphemy (not an isolated incident) and the militantly Islamic Taliban (now with better PR!) retaking Afghanistan and re-instating Sharia law.

I also don’t think people turning away from Christianity is as simple(!) as you make it out to be. Various scandals, for example the child abuse in the Catholic Church, are making people realize that religious institutions are more interested in maintaining their bureaucratic existence, for example shuffling around an accused priest to a different parish rather than informing the police, instead of serving their various congregations’ spiritual needs.
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Re: Things that made you mildly upset today thread
« Reply #9651 on: February 13, 2022, 11:06:44 pm »

Yeah, my mom left the Catholic church before I was born due to 1. abortion/birth control and 2. the sex abuse coverups.
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heydude6

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Re: Things that made you mildly upset today thread
« Reply #9652 on: February 13, 2022, 11:28:37 pm »

I would put it to you that the reason Islam is growing in the Middle East isn’t because of the hope it provides people, but rather the theocratic governments you mentioned rather requiring people to at least appear to be Muslim. People are joining not because they have seen the light, but because they don’t want to be disappeared in the darkness. For example, a mob in Pakistan recently beat a man to death for blasphemy (not an isolated incident) and the militantly Islamic Taliban (now with better PR!) retaking Afghanistan and re-instating Sharia law.

As you yourself mentioned, I mentioned both of these factors. I do not have enough knowledge to feel comfortable speculating on which of these factors plays a bigger role so that's why I didn't. I personally know Muslim immigrants so I feel it would be grossly incorrect to say that people only follow the religion because they're forced to at knife point. Before they were a mob, they were simply disenfranchised.

I also don’t think people turning away from Christianity is as simple(!) as you make it out to be. Various scandals, for example the child abuse in the Catholic Church, are making people realize that religious institutions are more interested in maintaining their bureaucratic existence, for example shuffling around an accused priest to a different parish rather than informing the police, instead of serving their various congregations’ spiritual needs.

Though I slightly touched on people's loss of respect for the church by mentioning it's shady history, I can see how you feel like I did not talk enough about present scandals. Do you believe that if the Catholic church maintained perfect behavior, then it wouldn't have faced a decline in response to the information age? I personally don't. I believe the pedophilia scandals only accelerated a trend that was already there, especially when you consider the fact that many protestant denominations are also losing members.

I hold my opinion most strongly due to anecdote though. I was a pretty religious boy growing up, and the brand of Christianity I was raised on was loving and compassionate rather than the usual self-righteous holier than thou crap. During high school, I held onto my faith as my fellow classmates lost it which I attribute to the lack of obtrusiveness it had in my life. I was blissfully ignorant of any church scandals and I had a very good relationship with my school Chaplin as well. He was a role model for priests everywhere.

Sadly, it wasn't enough. My best friend had turned atheist and he occasionally tried to convert me. Eventually one of his arguments stuck. And so, though I loved God I eventually had accept that there wasn't really much reason to believe he was real. I have no bitter memories about my religion, unlike many other ex-Christians I know. It helps that I never identified as Catholic.

My experience is not typical, but I consider it to be ideal. I imagine that somebody who had a more painful experience with religion would be even more eager to leave it (like my classmates did). The only thing that I believe could have stopped me from leaving would be if I was stubborn ass who refused to take in the world around me. This is an attitude fundamentalist denominations deliberately cultivate.

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« Last Edit: February 13, 2022, 11:32:41 pm by heydude6 »
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Re: Things that made you mildly upset today thread
« Reply #9653 on: February 14, 2022, 04:33:20 am »

Okay. It seems like people weren't satisfied with my attempts to give a simple and concise explanation, so I guess I have to give a longer explanation.

The biggest blow to Christianity happened when Darwin published his theory of evolution in the Origin of Species. It directly disproved the concept of intelligent design and gave an answer to the question of "How can there be so many diverse and complex forms of life?" that didn't rely on the existence of God. This question was a big deal back then because prior to evolution, it seemed like such an absurd and impossible fact of existence that "an Omnipotent Deity did it" was seen as the only viable explanation. The church knew the threat Evolution posed, which was why they did everything they could to suppress it, just like they tried with the printing press way back when (If only the church knew how to copy oil company tactics).

The second biggest blow to Christianity was the information age/Internet. The church has always relied on the ignorance of the populace to draw its power, which was why they tried to suppress the printing press (giving absurd reasons for why the printing press was 'satanic'). Now knowledge was at the fingertips of almost anyone and subsequently we've been seeing a decline in Religion in the West.

As part of my previous oversimplification, I said that a reasonable and scientifically minded person would inevitably discover evidence that contradicted the existence of God. That's not really true. Due to the fact that God is in many ways outside of science, you won't find any evidence that directly refutes his existence. What you will find though is evidence against a given church's Dogma or interpretation of God. Young Earth creationism is contradicted by the fossil record, the theory of evolution, and the fact that scientists know the earth is actually quite old. We know God isn't an all-loving interventionist because he does not do enough to help with the problem of evil. You've also got circumstantial evidence against the church being correct due to knowledge of its shady history.

That's not the most important thing though. As science has progressed, we've relied less and less on religion to answer our common everyday questions. We now know where the rain comes from, why people get sick, the mundane origins for awe-inspiring events like earthquakes and hurricanes, and we even figured out most of the stuff involving the origin of life, our planet, and the universe. God may still be real but the truth is that we don't need him as much as we used to. And as a result, more and more people are choosing to go without him.

In regards to your most recent statement Iduno, I apologize for using absolutist language. Again, I had oversimplified. The moderate branches have not died out, but they are dying. It's a fact that churches have been losing followers and many of them have shut down as a result. Buildings that have lasted centuries are now being demolished to build condominiums. This has been happening since before the Pandemic. The fundamentalist churches have been more resilient to this trend for the reasons that I outlined previously.

Islam on the other hand is actually growing last time I checked. This growth is happening in the middle east though, but that's due to a combination of political instability and the efforts of theocratic governments. Over there, there are more important things to worry about than the question of whether God exists or not. Plus, the people really need the hope religion provides.



TLDR: For most of human history, there wasn't much evidence against God, but modern technology has accelerated the spread of this evidence once it became available. Now Christianity is dying, but fundies are doing it more slowly. Currently much of the Middle-East is far from being a bastion of free-thought and discovery.

@heydude6: Thanks for the more detailed explanation.  Makes sense to me.

As for the Middle East, I'd argue information isn't as widely disseminated and technology isn't as prevalent.  Plus governments mandating religion tend to get the numbers up.  But I've never been there, so I'd like to avoid stereotyping based upon inaccurate information.

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Re: Things that made you mildly upset today thread
« Reply #9654 on: February 14, 2022, 04:49:09 am »

Religion, like Marx said, is the opium of the people. For a people with no other succor to turn to, having a metaphysical security blanket is a comfort few are willing to surrender.
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Re: Things that made you mildly upset today thread
« Reply #9655 on: February 14, 2022, 07:59:53 am »

Darwin didn't kill Christianity or Theism; Darwin put an end to a very specific view of Creationism.  Not even all types of Creationism mind you; there are many Christians who believe that evolution, quantum mechanics, and even the Big Bang are compatible with Theism.  God really is unfalsifiable at that level - "God could have initiated the big bang, and all of science as we know it flows from that."  It's just a detail, not a strong argument.

(It's a better argument against dictatorial organized religion though - the "this is what it is because we say it is, if you don't believe it you're a heretic and condemned to exile and eternal torment.")

I would also argue that very few people actually live like they are true atheists because most people believe evil exists.  It's not possible to derive evil from physical principles; it has to come from something outside physics and social pragmatism.  In the words of some religious texts, "God is written on people's hearts" - we have that sense of good and evil.

You can't make statements like "humanity should survive" or "we should protect the planet" from a moral stance without God in my opinion; you can make it from a practical stance, but not a moral one.  Put harshly: there is no existential reason why "humanity should survive" if there is no God, same as there is no reason why a given atom of hydrogen should survive instead of being turned into helium in the core of a star.

Oh, and Marx just replaced one kind of religion with another for a broad enough definition of religion.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: Things that made you mildly upset today thread
« Reply #9656 on: February 14, 2022, 09:10:39 am »

I don’t like Dawkins, but organized religion is a bad thing.
I much prefer it over unorganized religion or atheism. I don't see what's wrong with it as long as you aren't a fundamentalist.

snip
That is still not an argument for or against Christianity, just against fundamentalism. Yes, churches are losing followers, but haven't you thought that it's because of the pandemic physically preventing people from going? Cause and effect. And in any case, why would I succumb to peer pressure? A small fraction of people leaving isn't an argument.

snip
You do you. I turned away from atheism on a gut feeling basically. Something kinda pushed me towards Christianity and I took the plunge when I asked a friend about some stuff. I became a better person. Do you remember how I was in 2019? Yes, I know there is no purely empirical reason for me to believe in God. But I don't act on purely empirical principles for a long while now. With my conversion, those beliefs and misguided worldview slowly withered away as my faith strengthened.

Religion, like Marx said, is the opium of the people. For a people with no other succor to turn to, having a metaphysical security blanket is a comfort few are willing to surrender.
Marx said many things, many of which I happen to oppose because I am not a communist. So this holds no weight to me.

Darwin didn't kill Christianity or Theism; Darwin put an end to a very specific view of Creationism.  Not even all types of Creationism mind you; there are many Christians who believe that evolution, quantum mechanics, and even the Big Bang are compatible with Theism.  God really is unfalsifiable at that level - "God could have initiated the big bang, and all of science as we know it flows from that."  It's just a detail, not a strong argument.

(It's a better argument against dictatorial organized religion though - the "this is what it is because we say it is, if you don't believe it you're a heretic and condemned to exile and eternal torment.")

I would also argue that very few people actually live like they are true atheists because most people believe evil exists.  It's not possible to derive evil from physical principles; it has to come from something outside physics and social pragmatism.  In the words of some religious texts, "God is written on people's hearts" - we have that sense of good and evil.

You can't make statements like "humanity should survive" or "we should protect the planet" from a moral stance without God in my opinion; you can make it from a practical stance, but not a moral one.  Put harshly: there is no existential reason why "humanity should survive" if there is no God, same as there is no reason why a given atom of hydrogen should survive instead of being turned into helium in the core of a star.

Oh, and Marx just replaced one kind of religion with another for a broad enough definition of religion.
Sums up my argument. Religion and science are only exclusive if you're a fundie... in either direction. And I feel a world without all religion would be a much worse one and honestly a borderline dystopia if everything else is the same.
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Re: Things that made you mildly upset today thread
« Reply #9657 on: February 14, 2022, 09:18:41 am »

I feel like there has to be something inherently good about religion for everyone to hate on it so much.  :P

It might help to understand religion and people as a time line of an individual's life:
1) Many people encounter religion first when they are a child.
2) As they grow up, they rebel against "childish" things, such as religion.
3) As death becomes a certainty rather than a possibility, they then cling back to religion.

It explains why most churches are filled with old people with the occasional child.

As for me, I've realized that I'm undoubtedly blessed and it would be quite rude for me to deny a higher being.

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Re: Things that made you mildly upset today thread
« Reply #9658 on: February 14, 2022, 10:03:57 am »

I came close to dying during that time. Too difficult to explain. But I do mean dying. Actually dying IRL.
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Re: Things that made you mildly upset today thread
« Reply #9659 on: February 14, 2022, 01:11:29 pm »

3) As death becomes a certainty rather than a possibility, they then cling back to religion.
"No atheists in foxholes, huh?" :P  I'd contest that, but I'm sure it brings religious people a lot of comfort to think that atheists secretly agree with them. 

My problem with organized religion is that it's far more dangerous than a bunch of religious people.  There's literally nothing wrong with being religious, but there is something very dangerous about being told what to think.  Not every church is preaching intolerance, or using "charity" to recruit, or influencing the government.  Most of them are, and I don't see any benefit to it.  Charity would still be done and it would be much more honest.  People could still congregate and discuss the big questions, they just wouldn't be held to any doctrine.

I like what I hear about Unitarian churches that way, because as far as I can tell their only doctrine is "tolerance".  I don't know if that's actually true though.

On the other hand, some churches near me have LGBTQ+ pride flags.  That's... great?  Tolerance in general is wonderful, but if they're preaching tolerance towards specific groups... that feels a bit like using the tools of the enemy.  Which is a losing game, since the structure of organized religion is inherently build to divide people into "us, holy" and "them, damned".
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