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[zomara0292]

I am personally against making a specialized forge worker, just yet. I feel that the bonuses that we will receive from conquering both the fire and earth planes will far outweigh any small boost we will get from making a prototype forge worker, beforehand. That being said, to me, the obvious focus should be in creating/designing something that can be used to easily both planes. Preferably in one act, of course, but, that may not happen.

This does mean that I agree with RAM. we should cover over our weaknesses in combat, FIRST, and then continue highlighting our strengths. one of said weaknesses is the lack of aerial units. That puts us at a far bigger disadvantage in the fire plane, than the earth one. Especially since we can confirm large flying units, there, and the fact that the land there is fragmented, with death drops separating them. We could hope that they can find/produce, enough material to move from place to place, there safely. . .  but I would not recommend that. instead, I feel we should make an anti-aerial aerial transport units (far too hard), an intelligent aerial unit, or, something that can. . . well, everything needs to have some way of taking to the sky.

[Taricus]

The problem with flying units is armament. As we lack any ranged weapons which will be effective on the plane of fire, we need to work on that. However, in order to do so, we need the forge being capable of creating said armaments. As the forge is non-magical, we need a workforce that is magical in order to mass produce magical equipment.

[RAM]

The problem with flying units is armament. As we lack any ranged weapons which will be effective on the plane of fire

Flying units don't need to be ranged. It would certainly help, but they can be a threat without it. Ranged fliers are mostly advantageous for their ability to attack ground units with relative impunity, which is very unlikely as they will be opposed by flying units. Ranged weapons can even be a liability if they are unwieldy in a melee. Don't forget that teleportation, immaterial creatures, and projectile-resistance magic are all plausible as far as we know, so "cripple them before they reach us" might not be viable. Having aerial heavy infantry to keep aerial anti-aerial forces away from our ranged fliers would be a good long-term plan.

we lack any ranged weapons which will be effective on the plane of fire, we need to work on that. However, in order to do so, we need the forge being capable of creating said armaments. As the forge is non-magical, we need a workforce that is magical in order to mass produce magical equipment.

The only magical equipment we can make is those exact same ranged weapons that don't work on the plane of fire(we don't have confirmation yet, but it certainly seems so), and possibly shadow-blades, which are a melee weapon, which we have a mundane alternative to which can be made in the forge. The plane of earth is tunnels, possible earth-moulders, and possible earth-magic. This means ambishies, which is, ehh, the flame-casters have lots of burst-damage, they are not terrible, but it is not a theatre for ranged weapons. Fire is fire, and relying on fire to kill there is bad news. Flame-casters are ill-suited to our current battles. This leaves shadow-blades, a weapon primarily for imps, which apparently...

are far too weak or fragile to use as front line infantry.

which rules out their use in Earth which lacks the room for light infantry to manoeuvre, and in fire they are fighting ranged things that can fly while they are stuck on rickety bridges waving their knives around...

It isn't even likely that Forgebound would be able to produce magical equipment on the first attempt. We "might" get cheaper magical equipment when the magical equipment we have isn't much use. We "might" get significantly cheaper mundane equipment that would be useful in Earth, but not so great in Fire, on account of not being ranged or flying. We will almost certainly get a minor cost reduction, possibly just from having fewer forges and workers for the same output. We will almost certainly get cheaper workers, and at 6 power a piece for the current option that is likely quite nice, in the short term, if you discount that they can be cycled into the front lines later and replaced with something cheaper so we are trading the opportunity cost of having a better-suited army for the opportunity gain of having more soldiers on the front.

OR we could get something that can fly. Or something that can shoot, or something that can magically shield our forces against ambushes and ranged attacks, so as to quickly take the planes, so as to quickly see what the advantage of taking a plane is and see if we can get better forgeworker designs from examining the planes of forging... As it stands, the blackscales should do decently in Earth, although it is largely a mystery at this point. Fire though is looking to be a meat-grinder that will cost us far more from being unprepared than we could make back from spending a design to revise our forge.

Ravens: 1 RAM
Grue: (0)
Worker: (0)
Seeker v1:
Forging Darkness:
Daemons:
Ballistae:
Dark caster:
(Design) Forgebound (2): Taricus, DGR

[Taricus]

We still have a design this turn after making the forgebound or whatever, which I do intend to put in a ranged weapon design. Once we have both fire will be far more smoothly integrated.

No sense in trying to put carts before horses.

[RAM]

No sense in trying to put carts before horses.

I... what? You want to make the magic factory before having the magic item to make with it. You want to make the factory into which to integrate earth and fire before we even know what we would have to integrate or how integration functions. We are here assembling a proud beacon of carts stretching into the sky when the mere possibility of horses is only an untested hypothesis. The forge is a cart. The forgeworker is a cart. The things to actually build are the horse. We have armour and blunt weapons, which is not enough horse to ride through Fire. The things that we equip are the horse, Blackscales should fight well in the tunnels, but in Fire, someone decided we needed biology, biology tends to die from heatstroke in temperatures well below most familiar burning points, blackscales "might" be able to struggle slowly through the furnace due to narrative convenience but they are not going to be optimised. Aside from that we have imps, which I have great hope for(though others seem less optimistic towards them as a core army), but they can't fly, so if they are fighting over a bottomless pit and happen to stumble, it is bad, if they are fighting sky pirates, it is bad, if they only have fire sticks against things that literally live in fire, then we had better hope those fire-sticks hit like a cannon-ball or magically convert matter to ash directly rather than just heating things...

"cart before horse" is EXACTLY why forgebound are a terrible idea right now. Wait until we have our horses. Whatever prizes can be extracted from the metal and smelter planes, a range of magical equipment which is actually useful in the theatres in which it will be used, soldiers that can engage the current opposition effectively instead of yelling insults from a narrow path between fatal drops. These are the horses that we need before the cart of the foregbound.

[Taricus]

Again, we don't need to rely on magical equipment. The forge and it's workers are the horse, everything else is the cart. We can't expect to field something if we can't afford to actually get it onto the field. More to the point, you think it possible to integrate those two planes into our plans. But the best we're going to get out of those plains is raw materials for the forge. And further to the point, could you please point out where exactly in the design that intends to integrate the other plains? Because none of the forge design was intended to require those plains to function.

Moreover, as I said, I do intend to introduce a ranged weapon design that'll work on both plains after the forgebound are put into service. One that can take advantage of the forge and doesn't require magical ability to use. We do have a third action this turn after all.

[RAM]

Ummm... I was seriously just going to bow out here. We've said our pieces, but, umm, everything you just said was wrong. It is kind of unfathomable and I am trying to figure it out.

Again, we don't need to rely on magical equipment.

The problem with flying units is armament. As we lack any ranged weapons which will be effective on the plane of fire, we need to work on that. However, in order to do so, we need the forge being capable of creating said armaments. As the forge is non-magical, we need a workforce that is magical in order to mass produce magical equipment.

See, here is a thing. So we do or don't need magical equipment? We need a magical worker to work a magical forge?^{_{(I am pretty sure there are other ways, but workers are a decent one. of course, we could focus on forge efficiency and make magical items ourselves, or even make a different forge, there are lots of options...)}} This is relevant because we need the forge to make magical equipment(we don't). This in turn is necessary in order to get ranged weapons which are required for functional aerial forces(nope and nope...).
This is a long line of reasoning saying we need these forgebound in order to make magical equipment(I see no direct reference to magical crafting in the forgebound description.) while just next thing you say that we don't need magical equipment. One of these statements is disingenuous or a change of policy. I don't care about magical equipment, the ravens can scratch and distract and mess up fragile wings and that is enough for now. I am likely to be interested in magical gear later, but right now the only advocates for magical gear are the ones saying that the forge needs this upgrade in order to get it, but magical gear doesn't matter?
Great! We don't rely upon it, so no need for magical forgeworkers! So let's just ignore the tiny chance that the forgebound might pull it off as some obscure interpretation of a single word on and overshoot success!

The forge and it's workers are the horse, everything else is the cart.

Saying that doesn't make it true. The cart is the factory that is producing things that we don't need and can build anyway for a not-terrible price. The horse is the things that the factory might produce that it can't because they don't exist yet. A cart is a container that requires a horse in order to push it. The factory requires designs to produce and workers to use them or it is worthless. A horse can carry rider and cargo without a cart. Weapons and soldiers can be produced without a manufactory. The forge is the big lug of overhead costs that would make us more efficient if we are hauling in bulk, a cart. The units and equipment are the things that work just fine as they are, but if we are hauling in bulk, some sort of large cargo space on wheels would be really nice: horses. Yo udo not put the thing that is dependent before its dependency. The forge is cart, most else is horse, you are trying to massively overinflate the importance of the forge and it just isn't right.

We can't expect to field something if we can't afford to actually get it onto the field.

The forge is a discount. Discounts are very nice, but not required. We are looking at our forces being dropped to a fifth in effectiveness because the plane of fire is terrible for infantry. The forge is, like, a one-third discount on imps and a one-fifth discount on 'scales, as a favourable estimate. It would be better to let the forge idle then to waste a design revising it to be a little cheaper, the value just isn't there, not that we would need to idle it as is.

More to the point, you think it possible to integrate those two planes into our plans. But the best we're going to get out of those plains is raw materials for the forge.

Do you have a source on this? I have a source on the polar opposite:

The power to materials ratio is basically static. Don't try to improve this, as it's based on the fact that creating metal bars is easier than creating armor. It's less mental effort for the gods.

Granted, the wording isn't perfectly clear. Scavenging free materials is an edge-case, but it can certainly be interpreted to "don't even bother getter cheaper materials, it is the only thing balancing this design" which is toxic to the prospect of "we will probably get free materials from the plane".
What we will most likely get from the planes is nothing... directly... What we would get is living flames that we could capture with a design and use to perfectly control the furnace just by talking to it,not to mention that "living flames" sound crazy-good for magical crafts. Then again, we might find a community of fire-immune beasties who like building metal flying machines, however could we benefit from recruiting them? And what if we find a ferrokinetic in the earth plane? Could we not dissect some of them and implant their magic into imps for a vastly superior version of what the forgebound would be without that example to learn from? We haven't even seen battle in the planes, and already you dictate exactly what the reward will be? Citation needed!

And further to the point, could you please point out where exactly in the design that intends to integrate the other plains? Because none of the forge design was intended to require those plains to function.

I think there is a typo. If you mean "where is" then it will be made(or not, depending upon priorities when we know more) when we actually have anything to gain from it. It would be asking for a count of chickens when we didn't see what laid the eggs, but there seem to be a lot of it about...
If, on the other hand, you are just saying that the forge don't need no stupid planes because it was designed better than that. Then, umm, no? Just no? Why would the forge be hostile to improvement based upon new information? I would have set the forge back until seeing the planes and their denizens, which we have yet to do enough to glean the necessary data. But we have the forge, and tragically it makes no use at all of the planes. Hopefully that error can be rectified.

Moreover, as I said, I do intend to introduce a ranged weapon design that'll work on both plains after the forgebound are put into service. One that can take advantage of the forge and doesn't require magical ability to use. We do have a third action this turn after all.

We HAVE a ranged weapon. Let's all look forward to burning a design on a cheaper, less magical redundancy to our current option. Granted, the flamecaster is not the greatest thing. I would want it replaced or revised in time, but at present a new design would be almost solely useful against the fire plain, and just a minor upgrade everywhere else. We are going to get through the fire plane(or not at this rate) and at that time burning an action to make the threat we pose more uniform won't be a boon. A long-range siege weapon might help. Dedicated air defence would fill a potentially relevant niche for a while, but replacing a design we already have when there are so many things we need is folly. A plan that relies upon rendering the FLame-caster obsolete, before a single battle has passed, when we have nothing that flies, nothing resistant to arrow bombardment, no crowd control or medicine, nothing to fortify, scout, or raid? Is a very bad plan. Flame-caster might not be good, but it is better than nothing, which is what you are choosing if you spend a design replacing it while there is a massive heap of nothingness all around it.

But... Yeah... I guess I have said as much as I should. So Imma just leave it to the fates now... You and all your kin are welcome to the last word if you want it.

Ravens: 1 RAM
Grue: (0)
Worker: (0)
Seeker v1:
Forging Darkness:
Daemons:
Ballistae:
Dark caster:
(Design) Forgebound (2): Taricus, DGR

[zomara0292]

Ravens: 2 RAM, Zomara
Grue: (0)
Worker: (0)
Seeker v1:
Forging Darkness:
Daemons:
Ballistae:
Dark caster:
(Design) Forgebound (2): Taricus, DGR

[Doomblade187]

To be clear, can the Ravens fly?

[crazyabe]

Ravens: 3 RAM, Zomara, Crazyabe
Grue: (0)
Worker: (0)
Seeker v1:
Forging Darkness:
Daemons:
Ballistae:
Dark caster:
(Design) Forgebound (2): Taricus, DGR

[Failbird105]

Honestly, I don't really want to get any of these right now, I feel like we should make a ranged weapon, such as a clockwork gun, I just can't think of a good design for it right now.

[zomara0292]

Ravens:
 we forge these into forms that resemble, in both form and function, birds of pure black.

I would assume so

[Taricus]

@Failbird I have a good design, but we'll need the forgebound since it they might be a little expensive in material cost.

As for the ravens, the ravens don't particularly do anything that we'd need right now. Can't really conquer anywhere with bids that would essentially crumble the minute rocks get pelted their way, which would almost be a certainty given the presence of flying creatures. They'd also also require a good roll to remain as durable as written as well. Fear does not conquer realms; only force does.

Also seriously guys, make your domains for the god contest. I can't stress how important that reroll could be.

[dgr11897]

Guys another thing to point out, let's say we do make the ravens now Vs later, what benefits does that bring us? They are a design that will likely prove useful in most environments and cases, an excellent ace in the hole to surprise our enemies with midgame, and if we do them now all that surprise is ruined on the first encounter. Meanwhile if we do forge-workers now, We probably get more and better equipment, the ability to make magical items in the forges, and a benefit that will generally get better over time, with us building more forges and creating more workers. Plus, making a dedicated worker for the forges means we can have more units on the front lines instead of having to keep them back at home making tools, and they can potentially act as combat engineers or operators for vehicles and different manufactories. Finally we have the fact that taricus has a good design for a gun in the works, and guns are best when used in large numbers, something which better forge workers would let us accomplish.

[zomara0292]

You can, but you have two who see it as directly more valuable than the forge in the more immediate, that being said, I did vote on the forge because IT IS A GOOD IDEA, in and of itself, for the future. But now that we have it, we need to focus on the next thing, for now. And that’s taking over the planes.

Edit: And if we get a really bad roll on the guns? If we get another bad roll on the forge? If we get a good roll, but it doesn’t benefit us by much? The less chances you have, the less you should hedge your bet on one thing. I am fine with making the gun design, and I will switch to it, when you put it up for the vote, but not for the forge, at least for this design phase.

Darkness brings homogenization. Bright light does, as well. That is not what I am, nor what I represent. Some call me ‘Change’. Others ‘Evolution’. But, in truth, I am Ukuzalwa. I rule over the inbetween state of Black and white. The transformation that bring about an unclear boundary of what is and is not. Anything that grows, morphs, and becomes something new, uses my power to do so, as I borrow the power of all to inact  that change. Nope. Got nothing.