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[Random_Dragon]

The PR author didn't use the outline because the outline was generated after the PR was.

So you're telling me that a still-unmerged, still-changing PR is planning to use the grandfather clause as an excuse to ignore not only the guidelines, but your recommendations? Again, it was your idea to suggest those specific mods that would now be acceptable to retain according to the guideline, you should go bring that up with them.

[Erk]

The PR author didn't use the outline because the outline was generated after the PR was.

So you're telling me that a still-unmerged, still-changing PR is planning to use the grandfather clause as an excuse to ignore not only the guidelines, but your recommendations? Again, it was your idea to suggest those specific mods that would now be acceptable to retain according to the guideline, you should go bring that up with them.

No, I'm telling you the PR didn't originally follow the guide because the guide hadn't been written. It presently follows the guide quite well.

My original post also didn't follow the guideline.

[Damiac]

The main thing that makes me feel like this is a bit of a bad-faith PR is that Erk outlined suggestions for mods that're being actively maintained, and none of this information was utilized by the PR author. :/

The thing that makes me feel this is a bad-faith pr is the history of all this bs.  Kevin and his crew have a history of driving away anyone who doesn't agree with his vision of a fun free and tedium infested "game".  And hey, they work for free, they're free to have that vision. But the fact that they aggressively took over this project and drove away everyone else, and having accomplished that, are now breaking old promises about their half baked "realism" bullshit.  The filthy clothes thing is a perfect encapsulation of all that.

What is filthy clothes? It was a change made so zombie worn clothing got a "filthy" tag, giving a big morale loss.  The clothing can be washed, if you find the incredibly rare ingredients to wash it.  Of course, it's just clothing, so why would you go through a complex procedure like that? Nobody would, nobody does, the filthy clothes might as well not exist.

However, they do exist. And they show up in a garish, ugly font.  They create a bit of an early game obstruction to acquiring top end clothing. It's not an insane idea, honestly, but the implementation left a lot to be desired. Lots of people hated it. But no problem, said Kevin and crew! Simply use the built in option to disable this!  So OK, problem solved. Of course some of us said "Just wait a bit, they'll find a way to force it on us". And we were dismissed as overly negative jerks who just hate Kevin.

And now, here we are. Here's a question: If the "no filthy clothes" mod is just too hard to maintain (yeah right) why not just make the incredibly unpopular filthy clothes nonsense a "mod"?


We're being asked (demanded really) that we just forget the history of all this. We're being gaslit to ignore the obvious fact that a certain contributor or group of contributors get their fun from forcing their vision onto others.  That'd be a crazy thing to claim out of the gate, but we are not right out of the gate here. There's a history. 

And the BS semi-diplomatic "Oh you entitled gamers" schtick is old. It's been old for a long time. Yeah, we all know, and intimately understand, volunteers do the work they volunteer to do, they owe use nothing.  I am not asking for extra work. I'm saying "Rather than doing a bunch of work to ruin this good thing, instead please do nothing". 

Or, failing that, don't expect me to cheerlead you while you brag about how well you're ruining this while throwing snide jabs at the people who've been playing this for a long time and have witnessed the iterative process of locking out the main playerbase in favor of Kevin and friends.

You seem like a nice enough guy, I don't mean to insult you personally Erk, but at the same time, don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining.

[forsaken1111]

TIL that soap is rare

Having mods bundled with the game sets an expectation that those mods are somehow 'official' and should work with no effort. If they left the unmaintained mods bundled with the game they'd be buried under bug reports as soon as they made any change that conflicted with one of them.

[Erk]

To be fair, there was a time when soap was rare. I think anyone still upset over filthy clothes probably hasn't played with it turned on in three years, which basically just summarizes why some of the devs aren't keen on actively supporting blacklist mods. As an aside, it does hugely amuse me how onerous people think filthy clothing is. It adds a level of decision making in the early game: do I use this cool zombie loot armour because I need armour, or do I reject it because it's disgusting and dirty. IMO it's one of the better features of our game, and I only ever see hate leveled against it from people who probably haven't touched it since it was a new feature.

Personally I am losing a couple blacklist mods I like, like no survivor armour, so I get some of the annoyance (I'll just go un-obsolete it, it's no big deal). I am also on the constant receiving end of "why can't I add these thirty specific blacklist options to the game", because there is someone who wants literally any option in the game to have an associated removal toggle. There's no fair, tenable solution except the suggested one of having a dynamic application that lets you customize your blacklist. Until then, since collectively the blacklists do generate work (eg. "I am playing with no Xs, but subset Y of group X continues to spawn", which happens all the time), then if we're removing mods that generate undesired work for the core contributor team, the blacklist mods must be included on that list. It's less about "why this one specific mod" and more about having a consistent set of rules that we're following fairly.

[Eschar]

Why are filthy clothes morale penalties considered realistic? This is the apocalypse. Many people wouldn't be bothered enough by filth for the sake of life-saving "cool zombie loot armor." Some would, certainly, be bothered enough to incur the real-world equivalent of morale penalties, but since both this reaction vs. lack of reaction would be an idiosyncratic personal trait, I think "aversion to filthy clothing" should be a negative character trait that can be chosen in the character creation trait menu.

[Erk]

The morale penalty of looting something covered in rotting blood and zombie vomit is perhaps debatable (personally I don't think so, people tolerate that stuff to survive but that doesn't mean it doesn't bother them, that's exactly what playing in the face of low morale means), but the main penalty of filth is the increased risk of infection to wounds.

[Erk]

Back in the early days after 0.D released I sent out a survey for what features people wanted to see. I made the mistake of using a sub-par survey type, which made it hard to parse the data in a nice way for you all to view after.

Learning from my mistakes, I have made a new form for 0.F in a format that shouldn't shut me out and hide data from me. I also simplified the format a ton, because there's no need for a lot of granular data here.

As it says in the form, the volunteer nature of our project means nobody can guarantee any of these features will get made. However, for a lot of our contributors, knowing something is highly demanded can help to tip the balance towards working on that thing rather than whatever other sparkly idea caught their eye. As well, for the highly demanded ideas, we may make them release blockers - meaning 0.F can't come out until those are done, provided we don't run into prohibitive problems producing them.

I've already triaged this into a list of things we know are wanted in the game. Now you can help push for what you specifically think is important.

[Soadreqm]

[filthy clothing] adds a level of decision making in the early game: do I use this cool zombie loot armour because I need armour, or do I reject it because it's disgusting and dirty.

I'd say it's never worth it, since it gives you disease. It doesn't matter how well armored you are if you have influenza.
At least the one time I tried actually wearing filthy clothing and just ignoring the morale penalties, I got influenza on day one. If that was just a fluke, please do tell.

I think the main reason I don't like filthy clothing is still that it's such an obvious gaming abstraction. Items from zombies (and only zombies) have the "filthy" flag set, whether or not it makes sense, and the only way to unset it is by applying a washing board. Why do I need a washing board to clean a pair of sunglasses? how is it possible for a fireman's gear to still be filthy, after being engulfed in a fire that completely consumed the fireman's corpse? There is no reason, that's just how it was implemented.
I can't immerse myself in this.

[Eschar]

[filthy clothing] adds a level of decision making in the early game: do I use this cool zombie loot armour because I need armour, or do I reject it because it's disgusting and dirty.

I'd say it's never worth it, since it gives you disease. It doesn't matter how well armored you are if you have influenza.
At least the one time I tried actually wearing filthy clothing and just ignoring the morale penalties, I got influenza on day one. If that was just a fluke, please do tell.

I think the main reason I don't like filthy clothing is still that it's such an obvious gaming abstraction. Items from zombies (and only zombies) have the "filthy" flag set, whether or not it makes sense, and the only way to unset it is by applying a washing board. Why do I need a washing board to clean a pair of sunglasses? how is it possible for a fireman's gear to still be filthy, after being engulfed in a fire that completely consumed the fireman's corpse? There is no reason, that's just how it was implemented.
I can't immerse myself in this.

Aye

[Arbinire]

The main thing that makes me feel like this is a bit of a bad-faith PR is that Erk outlined suggestions for mods that're being actively maintained, and none of this information was utilized by the PR author. :/

The thing that makes me feel this is a bad-faith pr is the history of all this bs.  Kevin and his crew have a history of driving away anyone who doesn't agree with his vision of a fun free and tedium infested "game".  And hey, they work for free, they're free to have that vision. But the fact that they aggressively took over this project and drove away everyone else, and having accomplished that, are now breaking old promises about their half baked "realism" bullshit.  The filthy clothes thing is a perfect encapsulation of all that.

What is filthy clothes? It was a change made so zombie worn clothing got a "filthy" tag, giving a big morale loss.  The clothing can be washed, if you find the incredibly rare ingredients to wash it.  Of course, it's just clothing, so why would you go through a complex procedure like that? Nobody would, nobody does, the filthy clothes might as well not exist.

However, they do exist. And they show up in a garish, ugly font.  They create a bit of an early game obstruction to acquiring top end clothing. It's not an insane idea, honestly, but the implementation left a lot to be desired. Lots of people hated it. But no problem, said Kevin and crew! Simply use the built in option to disable this!  So OK, problem solved. Of course some of us said "Just wait a bit, they'll find a way to force it on us". And we were dismissed as overly negative jerks who just hate Kevin.

And now, here we are. Here's a question: If the "no filthy clothes" mod is just too hard to maintain (yeah right) why not just make the incredibly unpopular filthy clothes nonsense a "mod"?


We're being asked (demanded really) that we just forget the history of all this. We're being gaslit to ignore the obvious fact that a certain contributor or group of contributors get their fun from forcing their vision onto others.  That'd be a crazy thing to claim out of the gate, but we are not right out of the gate here. There's a history. 

And the BS semi-diplomatic "Oh you entitled gamers" schtick is old. It's been old for a long time. Yeah, we all know, and intimately understand, volunteers do the work they volunteer to do, they owe use nothing.  I am not asking for extra work. I'm saying "Rather than doing a bunch of work to ruin this good thing, instead please do nothing". 

Or, failing that, don't expect me to cheerlead you while you brag about how well you're ruining this while throwing snide jabs at the people who've been playing this for a long time and have witnessed the iterative process of locking out the main playerbase in favor of Kevin and friends.

You seem like a nice enough guy, I don't mean to insult you personally Erk, but at the same time, don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining.

Succinctly put

To be fair, there was a time when soap was rare. I think anyone still upset over filthy clothes probably hasn't played with it turned on in three years, which basically just summarizes why some of the devs aren't keen on actively supporting blacklist mods. As an aside, it does hugely amuse me how onerous people think filthy clothing is. It adds a level of decision making in the early game: do I use this cool zombie loot armour because I need armour, or do I reject it because it's disgusting and dirty. IMO it's one of the better features of our game, and I only ever see hate leveled against it from people who probably haven't touched it since it was a new feature.

Personally I am losing a couple blacklist mods I like, like no survivor armour, so I get some of the annoyance (I'll just go un-obsolete it, it's no big deal). I am also on the constant receiving end of "why can't I add these thirty specific blacklist options to the game", because there is someone who wants literally any option in the game to have an associated removal toggle. There's no fair, tenable solution except the suggested one of having a dynamic application that lets you customize your blacklist. Until then, since collectively the blacklists do generate work (eg. "I am playing with no Xs, but subset Y of group X continues to spawn", which happens all the time), then if we're removing mods that generate undesired work for the core contributor team, the blacklist mods must be included on that list. It's less about "why this one specific mod" and more about having a consistent set of rules that we're following fairly.

And you proved his point.  He used the clothes bit as an example and you took it an ran with it on blaming the players

[Erk]

There's no blame going on here. I don't even know what you'd think anyone is being blamed of. I just said my honest opinion, which is that I enjoy it as a feature and only ever hear complaints about it from people who routinely have it turned off. That's okay, I think it really sucked when it was new, but it's pretty tame these days and generally adds a lot IMO.

More relevantly than pointing fingers and talking about old controversies, I explained the rationale behind obsoleting a large swath of elderly mods and why we're trying to be fair about it. "We" in this context is the dozen or so people doing most of the regular contributing and content management, who came to a pretty quick consensus about what was working for us and what wasn't, as the people doing most of the maintenance and such. I can't help but feel some people are trying to read this in the most uncharitable light possible.

[scriver]

Automate more menial things like eating when I'm hungry, sleeping when I'm tired (if I want)

I don't automated eating/drinking per we (I especially always want to be choosing what to eat, even if it's as simple as a "use this for automated eating" flag/group), but I would really like to see is the ability to eat while doing other things, if that is what is meant by it. Such as for example setting items to be consumed while I spend a few hours crafting or reading or whatever. Or being able to choose what to eat during the process without having to stop and start everything up again. It's a lot better now that crafting has percentaged production thankfully but it's still something that's feels very boring and time consuming to repeat all the time.

[forsaken1111]

[filthy clothing] adds a level of decision making in the early game: do I use this cool zombie loot armour because I need armour, or do I reject it because it's disgusting and dirty.

I'd say it's never worth it, since it gives you disease. It doesn't matter how well armored you are if you have influenza.

I will sometimes wear filthy gear such as a backpack (if it is the only one I've found) or fireman's turnout gear if I need the protection but I only do so until I am able to clean it, which is usually very quickly. The trade-off is worth it for short term gains but I don't wear them for long

[King Zultan]

only ever hear complaints about it from people who routinely have it turned off.

I play with it on and I still don't think it adds that much, I pretty much ignore everything that's marked filthy as I can get the things zombies drop other places.