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[Jim Groovester]

Toaster and notquitethere: sup bros also what's your opinion on the length of Day 1s and whether long Day 1s are actually productive or not?

Because we're in for a long Day 1.

I hate everyone here.

Same to you, pal!

4maskwolf, customarily random voting starts with question, to which the other player is expected to react, in order to acquire a read. For example: what color is my tie.

Why are you being dogmatic about the RVS when we could not be dogmatic about it instead?

Also hey been a while sup how's it going friendo

1. Would anyone like some french fries to snack on? Except you dolores, you untargetable weiner. No fries for you.

No.

@Jim Groovester:
Where's Sigma? Do you think you'll survive Day 1 and Night 1? Which one is more likely and why?

He's enjoying his six or seven or eight year vacation ever since M. Bison took over being my avatar. Will he be back one day? Maybe. In the meantime M. Bison serves capably as a 90s Capcom villain with a dour, intimidating presence.

I think the odds of me surviving Day 1 are pretty high. Night 1, I'm less certain about. It depends on whether I'm the protagonist of this game or not.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I am always the protagonist.

Everyone: Why am I self-voting?

You tell me, nerd.

I mean I know it's a BYOR but I'm reading through the thread now and it turns out I actually don't have much patience for games. IcyTea31.

I've always this entire time thought that jim was Grovester, like a bush or something.

I have always been a funky dude.

Jim Groovester: (especially having just come from an actual bastard mod) do you think the spectator/comment systems are going to be important, based on what you've seen so far?

I think the actual bastard game I just played will probably end up making more sense than this game.

The comments are probably going to have some effect but who can say what at this point in the game with literally only the opening post of the game to go off of. I guess we'll find out, won't we?

Are you planning to leave a comment?

Toaster&Jim: thoughts on the lack of claims and discussions about people's mechanical options so far in the thread?

Maybe the meta has changed since I last regularly played but I imagine not having a lot of role claims out the gate is still pretty typical.

Also, just because I'm technically online on B12 doesn't mean I'm following the game or actively posting

No, you actively posting in the game in (direct, quoted) response to things happening in the game means you're following the game and actively (lurking).
You're really just gonna say that you'll be intentionally inactive, but you're also gonna take the time to go out of your way to go into the thread to say that? What are you hoping to accomplish?

Mon Dieu, you really like leaping at people for activity even with less than two hours of the game having passed by.

If you take off my shackles though I'm just going to fuck off into the winners lounge at the earliest opportunity rather than help anyone else, though.

You seem fun and like a nice person to get along with and cooperate with.

I can't wait to spend most of my time this game reading your posts.

Merry 1:30am on Christmas day, everyone! I would sincerely like to know how everyone's Christmas is/was this year.

Merry Christmas!

It has been good. Lots of time spent with family. I had Zoom Christmas with relatives. That was awful. The in-person visits have been much better.

[TricMagic]

Mamabo said No Spoilers Fallacy, so no, doesn't seem our roles will be revealed to the end.

Also, happy Hour-thirty till midnight. Sleep well, I guess? And don't daykill me while I'm asleep, it's rude.

[Toaster]

I may be rusty, but don't cut me any slack.  I'll get back in the groove quickly.  Also, anyone:  I used to be able to hit ctrl-b to bold (as in auto insert the tags), and now it won't.  Is that a browser thing or a forum setting somewhere I'm missing?


ToonyMan:

@Toaster:
Is ignoring the lynch candidate during the day a scum tell?

Hmm.   Day 1 if the player is scumhunting on their own and actually doing work, I wouldn't be terribly bothered.  If the lynch candidate is L-1, the player is voting someone else, and still not addressing the lynch candidate, that's odder.

The later in the game, the scummier it is.

IcyTea:

Going to sleep soon, but in the meantime:

IcyTea31

Everyone: Why am I self-voting?

Rolefishing, I'd wager.


Dolores:

I don't really believe in pressure personally, but whether or not 4mask does they probably wouldn't believe in the reality of that vote as pressure.

Interesting.  What do you believe in?  How do you get information out of someone recalcitrant, if not pressure?

I'm not really hunting for scum by finding groups of players or anything and don't really consider the alignment of one player to have that much relevance to the alignment of others (outside of mechanical relevance).

Really?  You don't think it's possible for a scum player to accidentally out their buddy or reveal a non-mafia through excessive force?  I have pegged a townie before by seeing a mafioso tunnel down said townie with silly arguments.  You don't ever look for that?

@Caz:

I'm already confused by my role ;_;

I think you're playing dumb. Why act incompetent unless you're anti-town?

I disagree, I think Caz is just anti-town on a meta level right now. Their responses are so guilelessly useless it doesn't seem scummy at all.
ToonyMan: do you think Caz is scummy or just not-towny?

This is low effort, and farming the backing of your opinion out to Toony.

Leafsnail: I've got it on good authority (my own) that there are wincons in this game besides basic factional ones. How important do you think semi-bastard strats like converting everyone to the same cult and having a huge group/all players win together are likely to be in the game?

Are you claiming a non-town wincon?  Never mind, you answer this.  It's an odd thing to claim early in general, but it's clear you meant to get it out in the open right up front.  I'll just keep an eye on you regarding it.

Toaster&Jim: thoughts on the lack of claims and discussions about people's mechanical options so far in the thread?

I'd wager people are still trying to figure out their own roles and place in the world before trying to get others.  Also, it smacks of rolefishing which is generally frowned upon.


Fallacy:

Vector:
1: What do you think of IcyTea31's self-voting?
...
20: This question intentionally left blank. (I was considering asking you 100 questions, but this seems more reasonable)

I don't like this.  It seems... I don't know?  It's not tunneling, sure, but it seems like... stalling, yeah, it's stalling.  You're poking one person with a bunch of junk with the value of one RVS question, meaning you did exactly one thing in a "long" post.

What's the value here?

More seriously, I'm going to get more information out of grilling a single player intensely than grilling many players lightly.

Not with those questions.

NJW2000 for no reason whatsoever.

I thought the reason was to act suspicious.  I don't really believe that you have no vote, considering you're listed in the D1 opener as not voting (as opposed to being absent.)

Why are you lying about your ability to vote?



NJW:

Everyone: What's going on with "Leave Comments"? How on earth do you think that works? I'm pretty sure I totally understand it, I just want to check everyone else does. Maybe 4mask doesn't get it. I feel like he doesn't get it, maybe someone should write a really clear explanation ~
(Srsly though, is it that we all can comment on another player/role/alignment and can somehow modify them? That feels really weird - like we all have the ability to make a change, in some unspecified way, say to town's wincon through some comment? It seems completely insane.)

Basically what Fallacy said, I'd assume.  It could just be some weird trap, as well.



TricMagic:

Just as well day one won't accomplish much

Sure it can.  Why so little faith?


That said, I find your post:scumhunting ratio to be poor.  Why is this?  You've had the time to pop out several low value posts, but not to make even one insightful question or observation?



Leafsnail:

Merry 1:30am on Christmas day, everyone! I would sincerely like to know how everyone's Christmas is/was this year.

Good so far.  My kids spent the night last night and they got their stuff this morning, and they were quite delighted.  I saw both my parents (outside only, mask on whole time, limited time) for the first time in months.  I'm glad I could get most of everything delivered, because I'm pretty done with stores.

What's your biggest concern for likely high shenaniganery?



Jim G:

Toaster and notquitethere: sup bros also what's your opinion on the length of Day 1s and whether long Day 1s are actually productive or not?

Because we're in for a long Day 1.

The drive away from extensions happened sometime after I left.  I agree with its pros, at least, because I have seen several useless extensions.  Day 1 can totally be productive, and I feel the productivity:length ratio is irrelevant.  You can have short useless days and long great ones as well as the reverse.


Do you think Bastanormal 3 provided you enough game to stop being such a newbie?





LuckyOwl:  Did you kill and eat IronyOwl?  I keep getting confused.

If you killed and ate a player N1 and could blindly swap into their alignment, would you?



Heydude6:  I don't think I've played a game with you, but it's been a while and I'm old and stuff.   If there was a mislynch that you voted with D1, how would you reevaluate your picks D2?

[webadict]

Mamabo said No Spoilers Fallacy, so no, doesn't seem our roles will be revealed to the end.

That was only for Mamobo's role. You may rest easily knowing that Mamobo's role is only for flavor, and not mechanics.

[webadict]

Also I'm gonna go to bed. I'll give you a vote count tomorrow and all that. Until then, sleep.

[juicebox]

I hate everyone here.

Juicebox, let's make it a nice two for two shall we?

4maskwolf
You really want me to take you out two games in a row? Sure I can make that happen. I'll have to lynch you this time, though.

[FallacyofUrist]

Toaster:

Fallacy:

Vector:
1: What do you think of IcyTea31's self-voting?
...
20: This question intentionally left blank. (I was considering asking you 100 questions, but this seems more reasonable)

[1] I don't like this.  It seems... I don't know?  It's not tunneling, sure, but it seems like... stalling, yeah, it's stalling.  You're poking one person with a bunch of junk with the value of one RVS question, meaning you did exactly one thing in a "long" post.

What's the value here?

More seriously, I'm going to get more information out of grilling a single player intensely than grilling many players lightly.

Not with those questions.

NJW2000 for no reason whatsoever.

[2] I thought the reason was to act suspicious.  I don't really believe that you have no vote, considering you're listed in the D1 opener as not voting (as opposed to being absent.)

Why are you lying about your ability to vote?

[2]: Uh, to clarify, I'm saying my vote has no meaning behind it, not that it doesn't count. Until the game progresses my vote on TricMagic has about as much meaning as a vote on Chuck Norris, but it would still count towards a hammer if everyone bandwagoned him or whatever.

[1]: I'm basically trying to engage one player the most for the moment and engage with other players secondarily. Though I'm still trying to figure out what a good question is. Though I think my next one is a decent one.

Vector:
Is your placement of your vote on 4maskwolf any more or less valid than placing your vote on IcyTea?

[juicebox]

Going to sleep soon, but in the meantime:

IcyTea31

Everyone: Why am I self-voting?

That's a good question. I have three theories:

1. Your self-vote has something to do with one of your abilities
2. You want to see how we react to your self vote to hopefully gain information
3. You just want to add to the shenanigans

[Toaster]

Fallacy:

[2]: Uh, to clarify, I'm saying my vote has no meaning behind it, not that it doesn't count. Until the game progresses my vote on TricMagic has about as much meaning as a vote on Chuck Norris, but it would still count towards a hammer if everyone bandwagoned him or whatever.

Hmph.  I don't know how much I believe you, but I don't see the value of pushing that particular point at the moment.

[1]: I'm basically trying to engage one player the most for the moment and engage with other players secondarily. Though I'm still trying to figure out what a good question is. Though I think my next one is a decent one.

Vector:
Is your placement of your vote on 4maskwolf any more or less valid than placing your vote on IcyTea?

Depends on what you do with it.  We'll see, won't we?



Juicebox:

Going to sleep soon, but in the meantime:

IcyTea31

Everyone: Why am I self-voting?

That's a good question. I have three theories:

1. Your self-vote has something to do with one of your abilities
2. You want to see how we react to your self vote to hopefully gain information
3. You just want to add to the shenanigans

I also don't believe I've played with you.  How would you self-rate your experience with Mafia, both inside and outside the forum?

Do you find that self-vote scummy?

[juicebox]

I may be rusty, but don't cut me any slack.  I'll get back in the groove quickly.  Also, anyone:  I used to be able to hit ctrl-b to bold (as in auto insert the tags), and now it won't.  Is that a browser thing or a forum setting somewhere I'm missing?

It's a browser thing. I just tried it out and it worked for me

Juicebox:

Going to sleep soon, but in the meantime:

IcyTea31

Everyone: Why am I self-voting?

That's a good question. I have three theories:

1. Your self-vote has something to do with one of your abilities
2. You want to see how we react to your self vote to hopefully gain information
3. You just want to add to the shenanigans

I also don't believe I've played with you.  How would you self-rate your experience with Mafia, both inside and outside the forum?

Do you find that self-vote scummy?

Well I would say that I am a decent mafia player. I'm slightly better at scum than I am at town, but I usually have fun either way.

I would say that it's non alignment indicative. I think IcyTea was just trying to RVS, albeit a bit differently than normal.

[Toaster]

Juice:  Are you doing per-player posts, or just what pops into your head at the time?

[juicebox]

Just what pops into my head. I was mainly just trying to catch up with the thread.

[4maskwolf]

I suppose this technically qualifies as tomorrow, where I am.

I hate everyone here.

Juicebox, let's make it a nice two for two shall we?

4maskwolf
You really want me to take you out two games in a row? Sure I can make that happen. I'll have to lynch you this time, though.

I like this, this is funny.  NAI, but funny.  You get a pass for now.

Speaking of people who don't get passes.

FallacyOfUrist, I'm genuinely unclear on how you manage to post so much while doing so little.  You've spent the entire game waxing poetic about french fries and spazzing your vote between between people so frequently I'd ask if it wasn't a post restriction, but I don't think it is because your second post has no vote change in it.  What are you hoping to accomplish this D1?

Toaster:

Also, anyone:  I used to be able to hit ctrl-b to bold (as in auto insert the tags), and now it won't.  Is that a browser thing or a forum setting somewhere I'm missing?

TBH I didn't even know that was a thing, I can confirm I can't do it on Google Chrome.

Leafsnail:

Merry 1:30am on Christmas day, everyone! I would sincerely like to know how everyone's Christmas is/was this year.

Merry Christmas!

[dolores]

Spoiler: Jim (click to show/hide)

Are you planning to leave a comment?

No. Even if I could, I'll be using [REDACTED] at night.

Mon Dieu, you really like leaping at people for activity even with less than two hours of the game having passed by.

It's such a shitty and unsatisfying reason to vote for someone that I need to set it up as far in advance as possible to gain any traction in convincing other players to go along with it. If the content of an early D1 post causes me to infer that I'm going to need to attempt to lynch a player over their lack of activity, that implies that I'm unlikely to have stronger reasons to think that player is scum later in the day since I won't have activity to draw such a conclusion from.

You seem fun and like a nice person to get along with and cooperate with.

I don't especially want a kumbayah ending and I especially don't want planning for one taking up the space and effort that should be spent on valuable daygame content. Besides being distasteful, I agree with Leafsnail that it's a low% option. The less wide-spread and coordinated the effort to make use of my bonus wincon the more likely I am to get to use it in the middle of the plot and not e.g. get killed and have my role-traits recycled onto other players.

I may be rusty, but don't cut me any slack.  I'll get back in the groove quickly.  Also, anyone:  I used to be able to hit ctrl-b to bold (as in auto insert the tags), and now it won't.  Is that a browser thing or a forum setting somewhere I'm missing?

You can post without javascript but the input hijacking inside the form uses it.

Spoiler: Toaster (click to show/hide)

Interesting.  What do you believe in?  How do you get information out of someone recalcitrant, if not pressure?

I believe that the fidelity of ones performance as projecting townieness is lower when they're not town. Eventually, given enough content, you'll betray the fact that your intentions in play are not the intentions that you would have if you were town. Since players aren't perfect, you'll do this or appear to do this despite being town, but on the whole will do this less so as town and more as scum or other roles with non-town interests. The lack of an intrinsic interest in the alignments of other players, especially as a (currently claimed) role with no other method of determining the actions needed to solve the game (i.e. who to lynch) is probably the main thing I'm looking for on early D1, which I'd describe broadly as passiveness.
There's no way of getting information out of someone recalcitrant. You can always just not post, and it's impossible to really draw any kind of conclusions from that; eventually all you know is that the person isn't contributing to the town. Ideally, I'd have some indicator that the person doesn't have an interest in doing so, like a bad reply to a post where they're accused of (active) lurking from before they go radio silent, which increasingly helps me convince other players to vote for them as it goes unresolved but does not actually tell me any more about their alignment than it did the first time they posted the response.

Really?  You don't think it's possible for a scum player to accidentally out their buddy or reveal a non-mafia through excessive force?  I have pegged a townie before by seeing a mafioso tunnel down said townie with silly arguments.  You don't ever look for that?

Not at all. This is pure WIFOM. You're basing your reads of other players on the posts of someone with an intrinsic information advantage they want to deceive you about. To give a trivial example, if there was a formula for acting out a sequence where poor arguments are used to attack a player and so subsequently on your lynch the town accepted that that person was probably town, in any mountainous game with more than one mafscum you could act out this scenario with one of your partners, get lynched, and then let them coast to the win on the pro-town-appearance of your act.
I'm hoping to discern the motivations of other players and then judge what alignment that player would have those motivations as. I don't learn anything about a player's motivations from the content of another player (except where it provokes a reaction from the examinee).

This is low effort, and farming the backing of your opinion out to Toony.

Correct. I'm not lynching Caz over it and never was, as could be inferred by my desire to not vote 4maskwolf so as to not sour my (aborted by their favorable response) attempt to run a similar type of lynch on 4maskwolf.
I don't really have a strong opinion on Caz so far but also expect that they might need to be lynched on the basis of a refusal to engage with the daygame and contribute to the town at some point further in on this or likely a later day. The more I can create the impression/awareness of Caz's lack of town contributions in the mind of the other town players the easier it will be to convince them to vote for Caz for that reason which is important since it's such a milquetoast and uncompelling reason to lynch someone over.

Spoiler: FoU (click to show/hide)

dolores:

[7]: I mainly asked so many to see how you'd respond to a poke of that magnitude. Response noted.

[3] What magnitude? None at all? You're responding to Vector's out-of-RVS Case on FallacyofUrist. You'd do that whether you were scum or town. The only players this sheds light on are you and Vector. I don't even know anything about your opinions on players other than Vector, which is a problem I don't need to rectify if I jump on the wagon against you.
You're voting vector and staking pretty much your entire D1-to-date on this attempt. Do you actually think vector is scum, or you're just voting for them, with nothing else on the backburner?

[4] FallacyofUrist
I kinda dislike unvoting caz here because I don't think their behavior to date is acceptable, but I also think a resting vote is going to bother FoU a lot more

[1] I hope to be able to intensely grill 4 or 5 players. I get that that's not everyone, but better to do a decent job with a few players than a poor job on everyone.

[2] I would complain about your insults, but honestly you're completely right. I'm terrible at mafia daygaming and if you really were in games with me, you'd know that. I rely on the night game and cunning gambits to get anything done. Half the time that fails completely too, though.

[3] It's the first 24 hours of day 1. Out of roughly five IRL days. I'm starting with Vector but I'll move on to others. And my vote right now means nothing, I know you read that. Probably. Maybe.

Fries for the fry god, tomatoes for the ketchup throne.

[4] If I ever start to feel pressured from you, I'll just self-hypnotize myself to be unable to feel emotion while reading your posts. I wouldn't do that for everyone who goes after me, but you're kinda an ass, so I think it's worthwhile.

(1) I disagree but I can believe that you believe that.
(2) Deep-reading inferences of the specifics of a role from the descriptions a mod gives is something I'd describe as nightgame stuff, but anyway this kind of disagreement over meta issues isn't especially alignment indicative.
My concern here is that your response to the accusation that you're playing in an anti-town way is "yes, I'm not planning on having a good town game". Which again, I could believe Town!FoU doing, but it puts you closer to the chopping block than other players which is both bad if you are town and do get lynched and use unpleasant knock-on effects like letting scum get away with less activity by lowering the ambient level of pro-town activity they have to match to avoid being picked up over it.
(4) That's still some level of a response, which is more than I'd get out of leaving the vote sitting most of the other players who have posted who I want more out of. If I had a gun I'd shoot tric and caz and you and 4maskwolf, but I don't especially think leaving a vote on any of you will get much more of a response than I've gotten out of it here.

juicebox: anything stand out to you so far? I'm not getting any strong feelings out of the long-form responses besides thinking FoU should be playing a stronger town game which I anticipated I'd be thinking before this game ever started. Has anyone made any kind of impactful slip so far?
PPE:
4maskwolf: any strong impressions from toaster/jim/toony/vector/njw (the players besides FoU with longform responses) so far?

[heydude6]

Well I've played a few games before, but this is on a completely different level. A massive PM detailing my role, massive posts from the veterans, a massive PM to web asking clarifying questions about my role. I'm finally caught up though, but I wasn't able to deeply examine each and every Wall of Text.

I think I'll start by introducing myself to the vets. Mainly Toaster and Dolores since they're the ones who asked.

I have only played 4 mafia games in total on this forum. A vanilla beginner game as a townie, Fallacy of Urist's unfinished BYOR as a replacement townie, Tomasque's Town of Salem as scum,and as an Exterminator in the previous Bastard game (though we were all exterminators).

If you want to get a feel for how I play, none of the games are very long so you can certainly read them all within an hour or two (besides the bastard). A quick look shows that I post a lot more when I am town compared to scum. I wasn't a good player back then for either side, but it's been years since I last played (besides the bastard) so I hope I've wizened a little.


I've also played some Secret Hitler, and there's an insight I gained from there that I think is very relevant here.

Mafia has always been a game about pitting an informed minority against an uninformed majority. During my time with secret H, I've noticed that scum can use this advantage to manufacture a strong narrative that a bumbling town can either latch on to or at least be confused by. I stress this point here, because there is a lot more mafia this time due to how many more players we have. I expect the count to range from 3-5 depending on the amount of third-parties present.

What this means though is that they have much more room to coordinate amongst themselves and construct a stronger narrative. I won't tell the scum how I plan to protect myself from that, but I want the less experienced players to think hard about what that means. I'm pretty sure this old news for the veterans, but I want the intermediates to know the answer to the following question:

In a game of mafia where the town is doing badly, who is more likely to know what's going on and lead the town to victory:

The group of 4 people?

or

The group of 2 people?

Spoiler: Additionally (click to show/hide)

What are the extenuating circumstances that lead to these answers changing?

Ideally, this is a question I'd like to ask to everyone, but you're more likely to get an answer if you ask specific people.

That's why I'm asking Caz, Juicebox, Luckyowl, and Fallacy of Urist

and Jim Groovestor too because I want to hear a veteran's opinion on this topic.

Whoever answers the question last gets my vote until they talk me out of it.

A few other things I want to say to round out my opening post. I agree with Dolores when they talk about the importance of the day game. Abilities that mess with the lynch are much less common than role-blocks, redirects, kills, and "information interference". If a town tries to do something clever with their abilities at night, it's incredibly likely that someone is going to mess with it and completely wreck their plan. A conclusion based off of deduction is much sturdier. Even if there is vote interference, it doesn't change the underlying opinion of the person who cast it.