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Author Topic: Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3 (Game Over): Lessons Of Mob Mentality  (Read 108791 times)

Toaster

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Re: Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3 (R5, Day 1): A Single Clock And The Cracking Seal
« Reply #1860 on: January 18, 2022, 06:48:38 pm »

I haven't read any of the previous games.  Is this going to be an issue for me or should I get off my butt and do it?



This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.

Interesting.  I am a... Null Miller, I guess?  Investigations on me simply don't work; you get a null result.  I think that extends past simple cop results.


Toony:
@Toaster:
Thankfully, there's a 0% chance you can get converted in this game.

I think I know your scum tells pretty well now after playing with you in KWN, scared? Want to know what they are?

Good.

You mean past me never loudly stating that I hate cult games?   I have a few ideas of my own, but sure, I'm game.



We really doing a mass claim?  I'm game, but I'm not doing it willy-nilly like we started out; I think we've already got some things to unpack.


Maximum Spin:
I am town, and my role is useful, and I am not claiming.

EuchreJack, please subscribe me to your mailing list. I do not have a private chat and I want one.

Would you claim a useless role?  Do you not think that claiming a useful role is not a claim unto itself?


Toony: (again)

I think it's more likely Roden is telling the truth here then NJW unless they're both in on it, although I find Roden believable here. Especially since NJW claimed first and Roden second. I got caught out pretty badly from claiming double voter first in a past game as mafia since I had no idea there would be another claim to "meta counter" it.

Why does it have to be either/or?

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Maximum Spin

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Re: Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3 (R5, Day 1): A Single Clock And The Cracking Seal
« Reply #1861 on: January 18, 2022, 06:54:49 pm »

Would you claim a useless role?
It depends on the role. The three clauses were independent.
Quote
Do you not think that claiming a useful role is not a claim unto itself?
Not in the sense I mean. Obviously it is a claim of some kind, you put the verb "claiming" right there in it.
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NJW2000

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Re: Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3 (R5, Day 1): A Single Clock And The Cracking Seal
« Reply #1862 on: January 18, 2022, 09:22:33 pm »

I believe this claim. My role is useless, I'm an Unreliable Cop.
Why would there be a miller if you're an unreliable cop?

I think it's more likely Roden is telling the truth here then NJW unless they're both in on it, although I find Roden believable here. Especially since NJW claimed first and Roden second. I got caught out pretty badly from claiming double voter first in a past game as mafia since I had no idea there would be another claim to "meta counter" it.
I suspect this has a typo as the first sentence seems to have form "P although P", so can't really tell which of us you suspect of lying. In any case, the idea that a miller and a unreliable cop couldn't coexist in a FoU game shows a disappointing lack of imagination. Not sure how unreliable Roden is claiming, but if they're essentially just a visitor, the presence of a miller doesn't change the usefulness of their role, while their role does not preclude the presence of a miller.

tl;dr I didn't catch your read, but there's a faulty dichotomy here.


I haven't read any of the previous games.  Is this going to be an issue for me or should I get off my butt and do it?
The games are long and frustrating to read, but can offer useful information about someone's meta. Be warned: FoU has some conventions, like people being informed who their abilities actually hit if redirected, and the roles are non-standard so can be a bit swingy or odd. It's well worth the chance to play hand-crafted completely new role-heavy mafia variants.

Null-miller claim is interesting... not sure what I think about this. Helpful in building up a picture of this game, I guess.

I'm not going to join a mass-claim, because there are strong reasons not to reveal my role right now.
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webadict

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Re: Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3 (R5, Day 1): A Single Clock And The Cracking Seal
« Reply #1863 on: January 18, 2022, 09:29:13 pm »

I'm clearly not focused, but I am sad that Jim is not here. Who will bully me now?

@ToonyMan: What's so false about it? Why you gotta be like that? Who's are these strong players to look out for? Also, pick me someone scummy (that isn't me, plz.)

@Toaster: I don't really buy there being two Millers in a game, why should I believe you?

@Maximum Spin: Honestly, you kinda get a free pass Today, whatcha wanna spend it on?

Ninja@NJW: Uh huh... So, at first, I wasn't on board with what Toony was saying, but I think I change my mind. Why would there be a Miller and an Indecisive Cop?
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Jim Groovester

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Re: Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3 (R5, Day 1): A Single Clock And The Cracking Seal
« Reply #1864 on: January 18, 2022, 10:02:20 pm »

I'm clearly not focused, but I am sad that Jim is not here. Who will bully me now?

Me.

YOU STINK WOOBA

Anyways I'm a I don't remember the role name but I will be publicly confirmed as town on Day 3.

More in a bit when I finish eating and processing Day 1 so far and drink more beer.
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Toaster

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Re: Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3 (R5, Day 1): A Single Clock And The Cracking Seal
« Reply #1865 on: January 18, 2022, 10:20:36 pm »

Webadict:
@Toaster: I don't really buy there being two Millers in a game, why should I believe you?

Honestly?  Don't much care if you do.  I policy-claim Miller in the first post of any game I am one in, and this is... close enough to miller.  The word "miller" isn't involved in the role and I'm not sure Miller is even the right way to describe it; probably not.  In any case, investigative role actions on me are going to be wasted.

Don't you think free day passes are a bit much to hand out at the beginning of a nine player game?  Sure, if there were 15 I can greatly appreciate wanting to pare down the choices, but it's not THAT many right now.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
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Jim Groovester

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Re: Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3 (R5, Day 1): A Single Clock And The Cracking Seal
« Reply #1866 on: January 18, 2022, 10:30:59 pm »

So can somebody answer me whether this is one of those games where town and scum share roles, or is it one of those games where town have unique roles and scum have unique roles?

Also my role name is Day 3 Innocent for those of you who were dying of anxiety about the name of my role.

This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.

My first gut instinct after reading this is to want to lynch you.

It's something about the miller claim but also the lack of other content and the friendly and humorous rapport-building comment.

ToonyMan, you Town? Are you able to read me yet?

Same question to Jim Groovester. Wow,  haven't played with you in forever.

Yes I am town. No I am not able to read you.

I'd like to think I could derive some meta clues from Supernatural the one where I got Luckyowl lynched by lying but you are canny and difficult to pin down meta wise. You fooled me in that game after all.

I am also not going to reread Supernatural the one where I got Luckyowl lynched by lying so you're safe there.

This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.
I believe this claim. My role is useless, I'm an Unreliable Cop.

That's a fancy way of saying vanilla townie.

Neighborizer sounds like at least one of them tells the other their alignment.

Anyway, I'm gonna vote Magma Mater.
Have you really never seen a neighbor / neighborizer role webadict? Seems difficult to believe. I feel like you're trying to play dumb with regard to your knowledge of Euchre's role.

I am also going to vote for Magma Mater as if I had to make a snap judgment based on less than three full pages of game this is the most suspicious interaction I've seen so far.

Whether webadict has or has not seen a neighbor/neighborizer role before is a weird thing to get contentious about.

@Jim: What is your opinion on the mass claiming?

Town that is freely sharing information is hard to beat town.

@Jim:
Rejoice! RVS is not meta in this game! Instead it's mass-claiming at the start of D1.

I think this has helped more than hindered, do you agree?

I agree. See my point above to EuchreJack.

I'm not going to join a mass-claim, because there are strong reasons not to reveal my role right now.

What would you have on top of Miller in a mostly vanilla mafia game? What could you have on top of Miller in a mostly vanilla mafia game?
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ToonyMan

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Re: Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3 (R5, Day 1): A Single Clock And The Cracking Seal
« Reply #1867 on: January 18, 2022, 10:55:46 pm »

@Toaster:
You mean past me never loudly stating that I hate cult games?   I have a few ideas of my own, but sure, I'm game.
Fair enough. I did this with NQT (after being mafia with him) and it worked really well, so I will share my list I made if I feel you've struck all the points like he did in Magic Mafia. Unfortunately, I am not masons with 4mask this time so I have no one to share with in private in case of my demise...

Why does it have to be either/or?
You're right, that's my mistake. I didn't mean to phrase that as mandatory. If there's mafia inside NJW/Roden then I would vote NJW over Roden currently. Your null miller claim makes this even more interesting though. As now that's two claims I feel that jive against NJW.



@NJW:
In any case, the idea that a miller and a unreliable cop couldn't coexist in a FoU game shows a disappointing lack of imagination. Not sure how unreliable Roden is claiming, but if they're essentially just a visitor, the presence of a miller doesn't change the usefulness of their role, while their role does not preclude the presence of a miller.

tl;dr I didn't catch your read, but there's a faulty dichotomy here.
I would say yes, but Jack has convinced me otherwise.

1. At the start of Round 3 of this game Jack said me or you had a high chance of being mafia simply because we were the only ones who "hadn't had the chance yet", this turned out to be true as I was mafia.
2. This left you - NJW - as the only player to not "have the chance" to be mafia. Lo 'n behold you were mafia with Roden in Round 4. This is statistically unlikely. FoU is absolutely playing favorites with the players for setups. This also applies to what roles we receive as players.
3. Jack suspected me because they were a double voter in Totem Mafia 3, after I had claimed I was also a double voter. This was a correct reason to suspect me as I was mafia. I think you can very reasonably read a mod's setup as part of suspecting someone as this was not a FoU ran game, but shows that mods will do this in general.

Points one and two are about picking players for alignments which does not directly translate to my argument, however it's general support for "reading the mod". Point 3 applies directly to our situation here though. It's not a strong vote but I want to start at least somewhat reasonably.



@Webadict:
@ToonyMan: What's so false about it? Why you gotta be like that? Who's are these strong players to look out for? Also, pick me someone scummy (that isn't me, plz.)
You always lie about your role.

I think you could make an argument that every player here is strong.

I think NJW is scummy. Though it's hard to find strong behavioral reasons currently besides "I don't like it".



PPE:
Also my role name is Day 3 Innocent for those of you who were dying of anxiety about the name of my role.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3 (R5, Day 1): A Single Clock And The Cracking Seal
« Reply #1868 on: January 18, 2022, 11:13:30 pm »

@Maximum Spin: Honestly, you kinda get a free pass Today, whatcha wanna spend it on?
Can I exchange it for cash value?

So can somebody answer me whether this is one of those games where town and scum share roles, or is it one of those games where town have unique roles and scum have unique roles?

Also my role name is Day 3 Innocent for those of you who were dying of anxiety about the name of my role.
More the former than the latter. Roles don't seem to be particularly alignment-indicative. I take it your role announces itself as town on day 3? Just based on the name, that seems most likely. I'm curious what motivated this claim.
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Magma Mater

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Re: Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3 (R5, Day 1): A Single Clock And The Cracking Seal
« Reply #1869 on: January 18, 2022, 11:21:28 pm »

This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.
I believe this claim. My role is useless, I'm an Unreliable Cop.
I believe NJW's claim.

@Roden: What is an Unreliable Cop?

I am a Neighborizer.  I can set up a private chat with other players.  Sorta like unreliable mason I guess?
Unreliable just means my results have a chance to be wrong. Not invalid, just wrong, and I have no way of knowing if my Cop check is accurate. Since my results don't really matter, I figured I would just full claim now since it would look suspicious if I claimed it later.
If I had that role, I would simply not use it. Particularly if there is a motion detector in the game capable of checking you. Alternatively, I'd test Toaster's claim.

Have you really never seen a neighbor / neighborizer role webadict? Seems difficult to believe. I feel like you're trying to play dumb with regard to your knowledge of Euchre's role.
Okay, let's expound on that. What would I gain by playing dumb?
If Euchre is mafia, or if you somehow know his role already, this is a way to distance yourself from that.
That's a very short-sighted goal if I'm Mafia, and also that would imply that I'd be really bad as Mafia. The better answer is that I can use that as a way to see who's okay with claiming their alignment with someone else, but that only applies if you think I'm Town. So, that's not the worst look for you, but it does make it seem as though you don't care about looking for Town, especially since EuchreJack is more like Town than not.
I'm having trouble parsing this. Are you saying that you do know what a neighborizer is, and are just testing the waters to see who'd volunteer to be neighborized? I don't see how that'd really gain you anything useful, as town.

@Max and Magma:
I am town, and my role is useful, and I am not claiming.

EuchreJack, please subscribe me to your mailing list. I do not have a private chat and I want one.
At least throw a fakeclaim out.

I, on the other hand, will claim my 100% real role as Ninja Fruit Vendor.
There's certain roles I could see Max not wanting to share, but also there's certain roles I could see Max not wanting to share if that makes sense. Sometimes you want to paint a target on your back at night...a fakeclaim would avoid the attention all together, why would Max not choose to do that instead? I think this makes Max look good.
Mm, I agree that it makes him look good, although my reasoning is a little different. I like that he openly stated his intent to not claim early on, as opposed to ignoring the massclaim or postponing his response until more people had weighed in.

This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.

Interesting.  I am a... Null Miller, I guess?  Investigations on me simply don't work; you get a null result.  I think that extends past simple cop results.
You guess? Your role name should be pretty clear. This wording is suspicious, specifically because if you're mafia then I believe your real role name would be Null Godfather.

Webadict:
@Toaster: I don't really buy there being two Millers in a game, why should I believe you?

Honestly?  Don't much care if you do.  I policy-claim Miller in the first post of any game I am one in, and this is... close enough to miller.  The word "miller" isn't involved in the role and I'm not sure Miller is even the right way to describe it; probably not.  In any case, investigative role actions on me are going to be wasted.

Don't you think free day passes are a bit much to hand out at the beginning of a nine player game?  Sure, if there were 15 I can greatly appreciate wanting to pare down the choices, but it's not THAT many right now.
In that case, which word is involved in the role?



@Toony & @Jim: I think that NJW is rescinding his miller claim and is instead saying that he has a different role that he'd prefer not to claim at the moment.

Neighborizer sounds like at least one of them tells the other their alignment.

Anyway, I'm gonna vote Magma Mater.
Have you really never seen a neighbor / neighborizer role webadict? Seems difficult to believe. I feel like you're trying to play dumb with regard to your knowledge of Euchre's role.

I am also going to vote for Magma Mater as if I had to make a snap judgment based on less than three full pages of game this is the most suspicious interaction I've seen so far.

Whether webadict has or has not seen a neighbor/neighborizer role before is a weird thing to get contentious about.
Why is that a weird thing to get contentious about?
To fully explain, the reasons web's "neighbor" post pings me is this:
- It's an inaccurate statement. If he's town and doesn't know what a neighborizer is, why not ask a question instead?
- It looks like it was posted for the sake of being posted. Town doesn't have much to gain by posting that as a statement, if he believes it to be true (nobody asked what a neighborizer is). On the other hand, scum-web might want to look ignorant about Euchre's role for distancing reasons.
- webadict is an experienced player, and neighborizer really is a common role. Obviously, this is speculation on my part, and is probably unfair to webadict, but it is something that I thought about and I'd be lying if I said it's not affecting my read on him.

I got caught out pretty badly from claiming double voter first in a past game as mafia since I had no idea there would be another claim to "meta counter" it.
Do you think that Roden would consider this?



People in this thread be like:
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Magma Mater

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Re: Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3 (R5, Day 1): A Single Clock And The Cracking Seal
« Reply #1870 on: January 18, 2022, 11:22:38 pm »

@Maximum Spin: Honestly, you kinda get a free pass Today, whatcha wanna spend it on?
Can I exchange it for cash value?

So can somebody answer me whether this is one of those games where town and scum share roles, or is it one of those games where town have unique roles and scum have unique roles?

Also my role name is Day 3 Innocent for those of you who were dying of anxiety about the name of my role.
More the former than the latter. Roles don't seem to be particularly alignment-indicative. I take it your role announces itself as town on day 3? Just based on the name, that seems most likely. I'm curious what motivated this claim.
A scum role that announces itself as town on day three would be hilarious, but bad.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3 (R5, Day 1): A Single Clock And The Cracking Seal
« Reply #1871 on: January 18, 2022, 11:25:40 pm »

Magma Mater, I can't believe you just deployed a reaction gif
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Magma Mater

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Re: Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3 (R5, Day 1): A Single Clock And The Cracking Seal
« Reply #1872 on: January 18, 2022, 11:26:54 pm »

Magma Mater, I can't believe you just deployed a reaction gif
LOL, I just noticed that like four people had used the word "honestly" so far this game, and I couldn't resist.
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webadict

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Re: Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3 (R5, Day 1): A Single Clock And The Cracking Seal
« Reply #1873 on: January 19, 2022, 02:33:12 am »

@Magma Mater: I think this is a silly argument, and I think you think this is a silly argument, and I think you're going to do better focusing on something or someone else. I am Town here, and even if I was lying about knowing what the role does based on name alone (which I'm not because I was aware of a role by the name of Friendly Neighbor who says their alignment to a target each Night), the only real benefit for me as scum is that I am activelurking. I don't really even see a benefit for EuchreJack. It's just a flimsy argument.

So, let's back this up a bit because I think we can work better in the opposite direction: Who do you think is Town and why?

@ToonyMan: Scandalous. I only lie like 80% of the time.

Although, you are technically right. Technically.

@Jim Groovester: ... I mean... All hail our new Class President again?

@Toaster: I was gonna add something, but I forgot what. Sorry.

Anyway, I'm gonna hold my reads a bit longer.
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NJW2000

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Re: Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3 (R5, Day 1): A Single Clock And The Cracking Seal
« Reply #1874 on: January 19, 2022, 06:58:47 am »

Ninja@NJW: Uh huh... So, at first, I wasn't on board with what Toony was saying, but I think I change my mind. Why would there be a Miller and an Indecisive Cop?
Why wouldn't there be? The presence of an indecisive cop doesn't mean there's not a real cop, a cop power handed out by an inventor, a mafia ally with alignment investigation, etc. Also, from my role's wording, I'm pretty sure Roden can semi-confirm my miller claim by investigating me and automatically reading mafia, although I'll have to check this with FoU. Ditto the null-miller, if their role is phrased like mine.

Or heck, maybe my miller role is there exclusively to mess with me. Second guessing FoU doesn't always work.


@JimGroovester
Spoiler: replies to Jim (click to show/hide)


@Toony & @Jim: I think that NJW is rescinding his miller claim and is instead saying that he has a different role that he'd prefer not to claim at the moment.
Not this. Check the other round's roles: FoU does modifiers.



1. At the start of Round 3 of this game Jack said me or you had a high chance of being mafia simply because we were the only ones who "hadn't had the chance yet", this turned out to be true as I was mafia.
2. This left you - NJW - as the only player to not "have the chance" to be mafia. Lo 'n behold you were mafia with Roden in Round 4. This is statistically unlikely. FoU is absolutely playing favorites with the players for setups. This also applies to what roles we receive as players.
3. Jack suspected me because they were a double voter in Totem Mafia 3, after I had claimed I was also a double voter. This was a correct reason to suspect me as I was mafia. I think you can very reasonably read a mod's setup as part of suspecting someone as this was not a FoU ran game, but shows that mods will do this in general.

Points one and two are about picking players for alignments which does not directly translate to my argument, however it's general support for "reading the mod". Point 3 applies directly to our situation here though. It's not a strong vote but I want to start at least somewhat reasonably.
I was going to call this apophenia, but 1. and 2. actually suggest I'm not mafia, if you're interested in second-guessing the dice. Which, by the by, I do sincerely think is very, very stupid, I wasn't saying that last round just because I actually was mafia. I'm struggling to parse the last sentence, but applying general mod rules-of-thumb to closed FoU setups is exactly what you shouldn't do.

Your read on me seems weak. Jim's instinct I can understand, and ditto web's doubts, but you're reaching.




Ugh, that took longer than I wanted. I'll try to post some reads before the 75% mark of D1, nothing's jumped out at me.

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