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Author Topic: Can delphonso make a commercial game?  (Read 49526 times)

delphonso

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Re: Can delphonso make a game?
« Reply #165 on: December 28, 2021, 02:40:07 am »

Haha, no, there isn't - changing the size of the window at all breaks it.

Godot has settings for arranging things like buttons and text boxes, but they are 1. Cumbersome to match with backgrounds and 2. All in-editor. Normally that's fine, but moving anything in the editor at this point takes a frustrating amount of time, or an already meticulous and frustrating process.

That'd actually be a good goal for the end of the month. I'll move totally to working on my laptop and see if I can implement fullscreen in the next couple days.

King Zultan

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Re: Can delphonso make a game?
« Reply #166 on: December 28, 2021, 02:58:18 am »

So how will you feel when the game is finished knowing you made a game from start to finish?
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coalboat

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Re: Can delphonso make a game?
« Reply #167 on: December 28, 2021, 09:09:52 am »

That's indeed an achievement. 99 out of 100 indie projects don't make it to the end.
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delphonso

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Re: Can delphonso make a game?
« Reply #168 on: December 28, 2021, 09:08:04 pm »

So how will you feel when the game is finished knowing you made a game from start to finish?

As of right now - I feel unsatisfied because it's not all that I had hoped it would be. This is the trade off for finishing it, because it's unlikely any game would fully live up to my expectations. I'm very happy with the programming (flawed that it is), as this is the biggest chunk of code I've ever written that is all working together. I am satisfied that I learned quite a bit about Godot specifically and game design in general. I feel much better equipped for my next project.

The last game I made (with a friend), I was basically in a support role - bug fixing and doing last-minute implementations of stuff while doing all the music and art assets. The core of the game was their work, and parts of it I fundamentally didn't understand (though I would now, I'm sure.) It was also a gamejam - so it was one week of hard work rather than this - which was about an hour a day whenever I worked on it. I can really feel the difference.

That's indeed an achievement. 99 out of 100 indie projects don't make it to the end.

This is quite true. This is also how many of the things I've coded in the past went - half-finished and abandoned (usually at some hurdle like all the ones I overcame so far in this project.)

The overwhelming feeling I have is to just finish this because I want to work on the next idea. Originally, I planned to have multiple projects running concurrently, but I don't know how well I'd be able to manage that...mentally.

delphonso

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Re: Can delphonso make a game?
« Reply #169 on: December 28, 2021, 11:18:25 pm »

It's done, baby.

IT'S DONE: HERE

It's not good, but also - not entirely bad. It's inoffensive. Play in browser or download! KingZultan, I even added a light object for you!
I am sure I left some bugs unsquashed, but I did my best to iron them all out. You can also resize the screen - but aspect ratio is lost, which I find hilarious.

I'll be back soon with a new game concept...Hopefully one a bit less ambitious, and more easily completed. Like...really completed.

Warning: it takes a while to load in-browser because of the music.
(I already managed to break combat.)

King Zultan

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Re: Can delphonso make a game?
« Reply #170 on: December 29, 2021, 03:30:13 am »

I have played the game and it is beautiful and I even managed to beat the other guys team, by having the deer kick the first two to death not really sure why the last guy died as I only had the pickle to the heal up thing.

As of right now - I feel unsatisfied because it's not all that I had hoped it would be.
That always seems to be the case as no matter how polished and finished a game is, your always left with the feeling that it could be better. I know I've had that feeling with several things I've done in the past.
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delphonso

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Re: Can delphonso make a better game?
« Reply #171 on: December 30, 2021, 03:18:05 am »

I have played the game and it is beautiful

Thank you so much!

Quote
and I even managed to beat the other guys team, by having the deer kick the first two to death not really sure why the last guy died as I only had the pickle to the heal up thing.

Hmm. I might have accidentally given the pickle damage on their healing move or something. Who knows, at this point. The deer is my favorite after the carp - whose sprite, I think, is a masterpiece.

Quote
That always seems to be the case as no matter how polished and finished a game is, your always left with the feeling that it could be better. I know I've had that feeling with several things I've done in the past.

Right - in most of my creative endeavors it takes me a few days to settle into "that was fine - it wasn't as bad as you think". I'm proud of the progress this project made me make, but maybe am not proud of the finished product, as of now. Luckily it's up on itch and I can come back to it in a year or so and see the differences since then.

If I go and play the gamejam project me and a friend made, I can already see the gap in experience. I contacted them about trying another jam sometime - I think we'll both knock it out of the park (they've spent the last few months making a very complex population-migration simulator).

Anyway. New game?
New game:

I had this idea while talking to a friend, and it seems tangible enough for me to make it without a ton of focus over the next two/three months. The game is: just a buncha bugs


Rough sketch of what I want:


(thanks imgpile for watermarking that)

So what the fuck are you looking at?
Well, the "game" will be a play area, a text input box, and a button to commit that text (and a button to randomize the text).
When you type in a six-letter word and press enter, an insect will be created in the play area. You can click on your bug to see some information about them. Bugs will wander around and either fight other bugs or make bug babies.

Okay...so...why?
Mostly, this is a coding exercise for myself. I want to make each six letter word a unique, but consistent moniker. The jeremy on my computer will be the same as the jeremy on your computer. This is quite possible by "hashing" the words (basically encrypting them into numbers).

I want to then take those numbers and create statistics for the bugs.

Those statistics will lead into their physical appearance (number of legs related to speed, antenna related to sensing, color related to whatever, and so on) as well as their behavior (higher fight means more aggressive, higher sensing gives them more range).

Two bugs who mate (haven't figured out the math pattern for that yet, but we'll see) will make a baby bug who is split between their names (jeremy and thomas make jermas or thoemy...let's just hope hitter and baller never mate.) The baby bug will be added to the list of random words you can pull, and it allows the players to find possibly stronger and stronger bugs.

Okay, but seriously why?
All of those qualities require a good amount of automation. The whole game should be algorithmically connected and no specific information should be added or planned by me - except maybe a list of 6-letter words.

Capumon was a lot of my own pen-and-paper additions. I want to make nearly unlimited bugs just from random words!

Also, at the end of the day, it'd be pretty fun to just write stuff like "shutup" "fucker" and "dammit" and those to turn into little bugs who fight each other.

On a final note, I actually think this will be pretty easy to pull off - and will then force myself to make it look quite solid. Animations are something I completely have no experience with, especially applying animations to proc-genned creatures. It'll be interesting!

coalboat

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Re: Can delphonso make a game?
« Reply #172 on: December 30, 2021, 03:26:54 am »

This version looks very nice! It looks not bad at all in full screen mode. The music is also adorable. I used to be able to walk the walls and now it's also fixed.

edit: The idea for the new game sounds very interesting. You might make an ant fortress eventually.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2021, 03:29:36 am by coalboat »
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King Zultan

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Re: Can delphonso make a better game?
« Reply #173 on: December 30, 2021, 04:10:03 am »

Liking the sounds of new game, also I like how I'm used in the example.
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The Lawyer opens a briefcase. It's full of lemons, the justice fruit only lawyers may touch.
Make sure not to step on any errant blood stains before we find our LIFE EXTINGUSHER.
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delphonso

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Re: Can delphonso make a game?
« Reply #174 on: December 30, 2021, 06:18:42 am »

This version looks very nice! It looks not bad at all in full screen mode. The music is also adorable. I used to be able to walk the walls and now it's also fixed.

edit: The idea for the new game sounds very interesting. You might make an ant fortress eventually.

Thanks! I appreciate it!

Liking the sounds of new game, also I like how I'm used in the example.

Shitty is a fine name. Does it run in the family?

Starver

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Re: Can delphonso make a better game?
« Reply #175 on: December 30, 2021, 08:48:17 am »

Mostly, this is a coding exercise for myself. I want to make each six letter word a unique, but consistent moniker. The jeremy on my computer will be the same as the jeremy on your computer. This is quite possible by "hashing" the words (basically encrypting them into numbers).
From my own experience in something like this, there are 95 printable characters in ASCII (far more if you support the potentially unlimited higher character sets). Though it looks like you're initially thinking of alphabetic characters only (maybe caseless, unless you want "shitty", "shiTty", "ShItTy", etc to all produce different patterns) so starting at at least 26^6 mappable word->stats combinations. Which is easily mappable to (I presume, from what I can see of your example-stats below the watermark) 20^4 unique stat-states.

In fact, by a factor of 1,930(-ish). So if it's just those four stats of 1..20 you're good with any decent hashing function, which should make "hitter", "hatter", "hutter", "hotter", etc, bounce around the phase-space of qualities (and, considering reversibility, finding the 'word' to get [20,20,20,20] will be a huge amount of trial and error. Yes, there may be ~2000 of them (like "usbiel", "hdappy", "mmmmmm", "random", "weakly", maybe), or perhaps none at all!

(Once you have come up with a basic function, you can quickly run through a wordlist of all 6-letter words (or all unique first 6-letters of all words >=6 letters) to register each of the 'landed on' stat-sets, count them up, ensure a good rough spread before you inadvertently release a game that it's virtually impossible to generate whole territories of values for, due to some mathematical quirk.)

Anyway, you'll be going for more than 4x[1..20], by the sound of it. You'll be shaving off other values for other qualities not already calculated from the [speed,love,fight,sense] values. Sexual compatability, for one. Some value that can be compared for breeding test (I suggest, to allow for the Ring Species phenomenon, a value (hidden? or perhaps handily tied to body colour for the player to have insight into it?) such as 0..255 with some quickly deteriorating breedability (two creatures within n can always breed, within 2n have 50% chance, 3n have 25% chance, etc, but disregard any chance well before covering half the range).


Again, whatever you do, you'll be able to quickly run through your own code and auto-test inputs to map the distributions. At the very least do the basic maths (how many 6-character inputs there are, and how many visible+hidden independent stats there are) and make sure the dimensionality is enough to theoretically cover the latter with the former.

As to the function, I have had good results with a 'linear-feedback shift register' method. For you, maybe line up the binary of the 'seed' words (for extended-ASCII you could truncate each character to the 6 or 7 least-significant bits, to get good distribution without having to worry about multibyte characters as input). Add (XOR) a 'salt', and maybe even perform a shuffle of the bits[1]. Then run the LFSR of your choice across the bits at least once (I tend to favour as many iterations as there are bits, just to thoroughly mix up and recombine the original data, though that's overkill... ✓n iterations should be more than enough for an n-bit shifter in most well-chosen cases). Such operations should be highly efficient (and reliable), if done with bitwise operations, and knowing how to use bitwise operations is always a useful thing for a programmer. ;)


Or just hash it and then split the hash-value as needed, of course. But it's much less fun to just use someone else's work, even/especially if it's computationally proven to be sufficiently 'pseudorandom'.  8)





[1] Might be overkill, but if your pre-testing of inputs comes out with too much 'value bunching/desert' in the output data then a simply altered salt or shuffle, at source, should shake things up enough to give a (probably) less problematic output distribution. You don't even need to understand how it works, just test until it does!
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WealthyRadish

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Re: Can delphonso make a better game?
« Reply #176 on: December 30, 2021, 01:17:59 pm »

It may be worth thinking about how to balance string-uniqueness against the evolution/genetic aspect.

A hashing algorithm (specifically a cryptographic hash) would be good if you want any slight change of text to result in a radically different bug, but it also means that "children" aren't going to be anything at all like their parents. E.g., "jordan", "jordun", and "jorden" would be nothing alike despite sharing 5 characters.

Contrast that with the other extreme having each individual character's value independently affect certain stats, and it would result in a weird meta where certain strings are always better (but you could also very easily see 'evolution' happen).



An interesting middle-ground may be to hash the two 3-digit halves of the string independently, so that attributes do still get passed down but similar 3-digit strings don't give similar results. The 3-digits could be treated as capable of generating a complete 'genome' of stats, with the final 6-digit result using some sort of average of its two 3-digit copies from its parents (or something more complicated like treating certain bit-patterns as dominant and others as recessive).
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Starver

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Re: Can delphonso make a better game?
« Reply #177 on: December 30, 2021, 02:40:54 pm »

Yeah, I missed out that bit. Three characters might not be enough to 'contain' a good enough breadth of heritable values. Assuming 256^3 of the whole (base) byte times three that'd be (slightly over) 16 million, but mostly you'd have well-meaning players using [A..Z,a..z,a..z] for the first half, and not all of those 17,576 (already dangerously low compared to 4 [1..20] figures, at 160,000 possibilities) are going to be 'obvious' names. There are (apparently) between 22k and 24k six-letter words, add a few more for 'names' and then if you're recombining into "Jermas" that'll add a few more, but I can't tell you exactly how many these will add to the vanilla dictionary list, or how many of the 17.5k half-name combos will ever exist. Not without running some raw grabs of online usernames, etc.

If averaging heritable traits with the result of the next 3x[a..z] then that'll be removing a lot of potential variation in the phase-space. "JerJer" might be [20,20,0,20], if you don't salt the characters differently and the two Jer-bits both give such a pattern, but "Jeremy" or "Jerked" would likely head closer to [10,10,10,10] depending upon the "emy" or "ked" result.

Maybe this is acceptable, and by including dominant/recessive values (a single extra 'extracted' bit for the hash) you can preserve extremes[1]. But I think it'd be close to the wire. I'd consider 8-characters (in my hypothetical implementation of your game). Or maybe 7, with two lots of three-characters and a 'control' character in the central position (heritable from either parent) that contains 'choices' to resolve whether left(string,3) or right(string,3) dominates in any particular quality, etc.

Sorry, just thinking aloud. This is your project, just showing you pitfalls I've already experienced. It could be your version happens to avoid these, depending upon how exactly you implement it.





[1] Maybe one way to do this is look at Tigon/Liger genetics. A tigon inherots growth-inhibitors from both Tiger and Lion parents (not usually producing dwarfism, just preventing exceptional growth. A liger, on the other hand, inherits growth-based genes but not growth-restriction ones (or it could be an epigenetic effect, derived from the (lack of?) processes in the uteral and pre-uteral environment) so can become much larger than either parent. Implementing this deliberately in a hand-formed 'genetics' of 2x24-bit diploid system is going to be difficult. Having it as a possible emergent property[2] would be better, but run a test to check that it does emerge.

[2] e.g. all values are extracted as [bit,valuebits]. If [bit] is 0, use [valuebits] as an unsigned straight value, normalised from min...max and (your choice, per quality) where this is the second element being thrown away, averaged with the first or overwriting the first element. But if [bit] is 1 then the prior value (first three characters) or 50% mark (if this is the first three characters) is used as a starter and adjusted by the signed-value of [valuebits], normalised to [start..max] if positive or [min..start] if negative.  Adjust to taste. I'm sure you can work out better methods.
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NJW2000

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Re: Can delphonso make a better game?
« Reply #178 on: December 30, 2021, 03:00:12 pm »

Well, the game was fun, although I couldn't get crit-focused builds to work as well as damage or health gouges. Thanks for putting our dumb memes into something you put effort into!
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delphonso

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Re: Can delphonso make a better game?
« Reply #179 on: December 30, 2021, 06:31:28 pm »

But it's much less fun to just use someone else's work, even/especially if it's computationally proven to be sufficiently 'pseudorandom'.  8)

Godot (blessed saint that it is) has a built-in hash function (literally just hash(string)). I'll experiment with it today and see if it results in something useful or something with any problems which need solving.

It may be worth thinking about how to balance string-uniqueness against the evolution/genetic aspect.

I've been mulling this over as well. I'm not sure if I want the offspring to be quite similar or quite different from the parents. It's hard to say. I'll concatenate a few string pieces with the built-in hash and see what we get.

Sorry, just thinking aloud. This is your project, just showing you pitfalls I've already experienced. It could be your version happens to avoid these, depending upon how exactly you implement it.

No worries - thanks to both of you for throwing out some potential problems and solutions to this idea. Even if I run with the hash function to get a prototype running - there's no reason to stick with that forever. Ideally, I can work something out to derive stats regardless of hash-length (perhaps just taking a percentage, or a set number of digits, allowing overlap if necessary).

Actually, I just had the idea of using the hashed strings as seeds for randomization. I'll test if there's some...difference in those seeds (such as on 32bit and 64bit systems {even if so, I should be able to force integer size if that becomes an issue.}) That should allow for changes to the hashing algorithm quite easily.

Well, the game was fun, although I couldn't get crit-focused builds to work as well as damage or health gouges. Thanks for putting our dumb memes into something you put effort into!

I'll double-check the code - it's quite possible I left crit-chance or damage in a state where it wouldn't expound with more mons with abilities which affect that. If that's the case, I'll edit it and re-upload.


Later today, I'll get started on a bare-bones scene. Shouldn't be particularly difficult to just sketch it out in-engine.
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