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[Strongpoint]

https://twitter.com/Aizenberg55/status/1737138879709237341

Here, a nice Twitter thread demolishing yet another "Human Right Watch"'s propaganda piece. It is stuff like that while I don't take such sources seriously.

[scriver]

Who is that guy, though? Even if HRW was propaganda that still just looks like counterpropaganda.

I can't read more than the initial thread opener by the way because twitter won't let me. I briefly checked out his main page to see if I could see more than one post through there and it looks like it's nothing but attempts at "disproving" Israel-critical narratives.

[feelotraveller]

You made clear that you think them being military and police, as opposed to "relatively innocent" civillians, justified what happened to them. I pointed out that civilian deaths weren't the only thing that was wrong that day. That is my point.

If indeed you have some point to make, them make it and stop with the meaningless innuendo.

And...?

Are you calling for Israel to join the ICC and stop impeding investigations into and possible prosecutions of war crimes committed in Israel/Palestine (by both sides)?

Dude, neither of those comments were from the post you cited but rather from a previous post.  They were different posts dealing with different matters - specifically the one you cited was about the claimed numbers of deaths on 7th October.  The previous which you now want to make out you were replying to was a reply to McTraveller was about the distinction they had made about civilians vs. those engaging in violence.

I most certainly did not say that them being military justified their deaths, I said that it may justify their deaths.  There is an important distinction but I guess it goes over your head.  To try to get it through to you here's another example: Hamas may be responsible for rapes that happened on October 7th is quite a different statement from Hamas is responsible for rapes that happened on October 7th.  The first refers to an accusation, a possibility that may be true, while the second refers to something evidentially proven, something that has been shown to be true.  Obviously in this case a neutral third party (like the ICC) would need to be presented evidence which it can judge.  Something Israel have, as yet, failed to do.  This does not mean that no rapes happened, or even that I believe no rapes happened, but the lack of evidence does throw doubt on it being as widespread and systematic as some have been making it out to be.  Similarly for the descration.  And torture, is that even claimed to have happened?

The comment about civilians also refers directly back to McTraveller's post

Sure yes the general Israeli population is somewhat culpable, if for no other reason that they don't stand up against violence committed "in the name of Israel", same as some of the residents of Gaza are culpable for not standing up against violence committed "in the name of Palestine."

which I am in broad agreement with.

As for my question I was in good faith trying to figure out what the hell you were talking about, not the least because it seemed, and is, highly irrelevant to the post that you cited.  And again being honest, although the point you make is true it seems pretty much disconnected from the discussion we were having.  So I guess that is the real 'whatabout-ism' here.

[scriver]

You made clear that you think them being military and police, as opposed to "relatively innocent" civillians, justified what happened to them. I pointed out that civilian deaths weren't the only thing that was wrong that day. That is my point.

If indeed you have some point to make, them make it and stop with the meaningless innuendo.

And...?

Are you calling for Israel to join the ICC and stop impeding investigations into and possible prosecutions of war crimes committed in Israel/Palestine (by both sides)?

Dude, neither of those comments were from the post you cited but rather from a previous post. 

If you had bothered to follow the conversation you would have perhaps been able to follow why certain comments were being made.

[feelotraveller]

Haha scriver you 'point' was irrelevant to that post as well.

(If you want to make out the bringing in the ICC was a whataboutism - and who knows because you seem incapable of engaging in proper speech - that was an act of generosity on my part in trying to find the relevance of your comment, e.g., that other war crimes had been committed, not because it made your point relevant but just, you know, to have a converstation like normal people.  And the ? in the And...? was there to point you to explaining how the hell you thought your comment was relevant if I was wrong in grasping for the straws of 'oh, maybe he is incoherently trying to point the discussion to war crimes'.  But instead of explaining yourself, or discussing war crimes, all it seems you want to do is be spiteful in return for charity.)

[Bumber]

Terrorist until proven posthumously innocent. Civilians targeted on purpose, civilian infrastructure targeted on purpose, civilian housing targeted on purpose, hospitals raided, mosques and churches bombed - what the actual fuck is going through their heads

What could they possibly be thinking?

When rockets are launched from churches, those same churches tend to get bombed.

[Loud Whispers]

What could they possibly be thinking?

When rockets are launched from churches, those same churches tend to get bombed.

That's from 2014

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is what his church looks like now. The world's 3rd oldest church. The common evangelical W

The archbishop in that 2014 interview has reportedly survived this bombing though I haven't found any interviews with him post-bombing. Maybe he's still recovering or cat's got his tongue. This is what his church had to say:

The Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem expresses its strongest condemnation of the Israeli airstrike that have struck its church compound in the city of Gaza.

The Patriarchate emphasizes that targeting churches and their institutions, along with the shelters they provide to protect innocent citizens, especially children and women who have lost their homes due to Israeli airstrikes on residential areas over the past thirteen days, constitutes a war crime that cannot be ignored.

Despite the evident targeting of the facilities and shelters of the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem and other churches – including the Episcopal Church of Jerusalem Hospital, other schools, and social institutions – the Patriarchate, along with the other churches, remain committed to fulfilling its religious and moral duty in providing assistance, support, and refuge to those in need, amidst continuous Israeli demands to evacuate these institutions of civilians and the pressures exerted on the churches in this regard.

The Patriarchate stresses that it will not abandon its religious and humanitarian duty, rooted in its Christian values, to provide all that is necessary in times of war and peace alike.

The IDF has not reported any evidence or reasoning as to why they did this. So it once again falls upon the dead Christians to prove they weren't terrorists supporting Hamas

This is not to be confused with Latin Catholic Church

On Saturday, Vatican News reported that the IDF had entered the compound, shooting at anyone leaving the church. “The victims are an elderly woman and her daughter who rushed out of the building to rescue her mother. Israel has justified the attack, claiming the presence of a missile launcher in the parish,” it reported.

In a statement quoted by the BBC on Sunday, the IDF said: “During the dialogue between the IDF and representatives of the community, no reports of a hit on the church, nor civilians being injured or killed, were raised. A review of the IDF’s operational findings support this.”

At the Angelus on Sunday, Pope Francis condemned the attack on the compound, “where there are no terrorists, but families, children, people who are sick and have disabilities, and nuns . . . Some say, ‘This is terrorism. This is war.’ Yes, it is war. It is terrorism.”

Writing on social media on Saturday, Hammam Farah, a psychotherapist based in Canada, described the two women as “family friends”. They had been walking to the convent to use the only bathroom, he wrote. “Their bodies remain strewn across the church courtyard. . . The Christian community in Gaza is on the verge of extinction.” His own family members remained in the compound.

According to the Patriarchate, earlier in the morning “a rocket from an IDF tank targeted the convent.” The building’s generator — its only source of electricity — and “fuel resources” had been destroyed. “The house was damaged by the resulting explosion and massive fire. Two more rockets, fired by an IDF tank, targeted the same Convent and rendered the home uninhabitable. The 54 disabled persons are currently displaced and without access to the respirators that some of them need to survive.”

The statement continued that, on Friday night, three people had been wounded inside the church compound as the result of “heavy bombing” in the area. Solar panels and water tanks — “indispensable for the survival of the community” — had been destroyed. The Patriarchate was “at a loss to comprehend how such an attack could be carried out, even more so as the whole Church prepares for Christmas”.

n addition, under the ICC Rome Statute, in non-international armed conflicts, it is war crime to intentionally direct attacks against protected objects, namely buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected. To benefit from this protection from all forms of attack, the protected objects must not be used by a party to a conflict for acts harmful to the enemy.

I'm sure the Pope is just lying though and it is both moral and productive to bomb churches because they're harbouring terrorists until they prove they're not. And I may as well trust police who swear the black man they just killed reached for a gun. Can't wait for the next episode of "we didn't kill you, Hamas did. But if we did kill you, it was an accident, and if it wasn't an accident, you can't prove you didn't have a rocket launcher."

Just glad the IDF no longer has to fear ancient churches and disabled refugees threatening their operations. Maybe the sniper should target himself the next time he guns down a family.

[King Zultan]

If they were firing rockets from churches in 2014 what makes you think they wouldn't be doing it now?

[martinuzz]

Most shipping companies have decided to stop using the Suez canal because of Houthi attacks on ships.
I wonder how long before Egypt attacks Jemen to restore their national income

[Loud Whispers]

If they were firing rockets from churches in 2014 what makes you think they wouldn't be doing it now?

The lack of evidence?

[martinuzz]

Also, the lack of remaining churches

[Loud Whispers]

Also, the lack of remaining churches

Can't be a potential military site if there are no religious sites. Can't be an enemy if there are no military aged males. 300 IQ art of war

Also I did a bit more searching on the archbishop Alexios and he did have this to say about the strike

“Yesterday night, about 8:00, the Israeli army hit the building of the Greek Orthodox Church in Gaza – Saint Porphyrius.

“This building it is the offices of the church and it was inside the building, about 150 persons. So they hit it and they killed too many people. So in the ruins we try now to take out the killed people.

“We have a question.

“What for… what for they killed innocent people, children, babies, old people, sick people, who had come in the church to have the protection?”

[King Zultan]

Went to a car show today and there was a guy giving out anti-Israel flyers, which were really just poor cover for his antisemitic shit. For some reason he was then was surprised when people called him out on his shit and told him to fuck off.


If anyone is wondering what the antisemitic shit was, it was that last lines of the flyer that said that the only way there would be peace in the middle east is if all the Jews were killed.

[Loud Whispers]

Reminds me of this one dude who tried to convince me the way to solve the syrian refugee crisis was to nuclear bomb ethiopia. It was so fucking confusing on so many levels

[Robsoie]

Reminds me of this one dude who tried to convince me the way to solve the syrian refugee crisis was to nuclear bomb ethiopia. It was so fucking confusing on so many levels

Maybe he just skipped the geography courses when he was at school.