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[Retro]

THIS is what you get when let people add 'nice graphics' and make game overall too stable.
I can't imagine what kind of horrors we will see if Toady ever starts on graphics improvements requested in ESV.

Not that I don't get the ironic humour, but comments like this are likely to start up the flames again.

[Misterstone]

Dear whiners,

This game is in alpha.  When you play it, you are testing it for the developer. You, yes you are a bug tester.

So please, either help Toady (and us) test the game, or get lost, and let Toady (and us) work in peace.


Also, would people please stop questioning whether Toady is living in self-imposed penury right now?  I live in the Seattle area, and anyone who thinks he lives on a comfortable income should move out of their mommy's house, move out here and see how fun living on 25k a year really is.

[ZeroGravitas]

But, I think the end goal for Toady is to have a game with the details he wanted that more or less functions the way he wants it too.

I don't think that will ever happen.

[ZeroGravitas]

Dear whiners,

This game is in alpha.  When you play it, you are testing it for the developer. You, yes you are a bug tester.

So please, either help Toady (and us) test the game, or get lost, and let Toady (and us) work in peace.


Also, would people please stop questioning whether Toady is living in self-imposed penury right now?  I live in the Seattle area, and anyone who thinks he lives on a comfortable income should move out of their mommy's house, move out here and see how fun living on 25k a year really is.

Excellent job reading the thread before posting. Everything you said has already been addressed.

[G-Flex]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say that yes, if people feel that good features are taken out or the game otherwise takes a step back from where it was in some way, they have a right to criticize that. Yes, this includes less graphics support.

However, the qualms raised in this thread are a little misplaced and presumptuous, and are pretty easily addressed.

Well, they would have been, if half of the guys in this thread hadn't totally fanboy'd out on him and jumped on his back so much for it. There was no reason to get all dismissive and rude about it, and if anything caused the argument going on now, it was probably that. A simple explanation of why the features he's used to got a little messed up would have sufficed.

[ZeroGravitas]

Well, they would have been, if half of the guys in this thread hadn't totally fanboy'd out on him and jumped on his back so much for it. There was no reason to get all dismissive and rude about it, and if anything caused the argument going on now, it was probably that. A simple explanation of why the features he's used to got a little messed up would have sufficed.

This is my biggest problem with this community. People are unable to acknowledge any criticism of the game whatsoever. You could say "hey guys the game actually formatted my hard drive, I'm kind of disappointed by that" and  people would  be like "WOW TOADY DOES IT FOR FREE AND ITS STILL  IN ALPHA OK SO SHUT UP". People have no perspective at all.

[G-Flex]

Yes. It's really detrimental when people show up trying to get into it, face some sort of issue, and get basically gunned down for it. Most of the time, when people get confused about stuff like this, it's just because they don't know something, not because they're trying to be dicks.

I feel like it probably drives people away who would otherwise stay.

Of course, people might respond with "well, he was a jerk anyway", but hey, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that people tend to get defensive when their questions are answered with hostile rhetoric instead of a more neutral and informative response.

[gamerman]

Dear whiners,

This game is in alpha.  When you play it, you are testing it for the developer. You, yes you are a bug tester.

So please, either help Toady (and us) test the game, or get lost, and let Toady (and us) work in peace.


Also, would people please stop questioning whether Toady is living in self-imposed penury right now?  I live in the Seattle area, and anyone who thinks he lives on a comfortable income should move out of their mommy's house, move out here and see how fun living on 25k a year really is.

Excellent job reading the thread before posting. Everything you said has already been addressed.

I think this turned into a vent thread for the people mad at the people whining, It's pretty much been said on every page.

[Urist McDepravity]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say that yes, if people feel that good features are taken out or the game otherwise takes a step back from where it was in some way, they have a right to criticize that. Yes, this includes less graphics support.

Criticizing - yes, outright lying, defaming and trolling - no.
Its one thing to state that you dont like some feature, and another to misinform public stating that 'Toady will never incorporate any graphics support including opengl fixes of Baughn' or 'Toady is not going to fix bugs because he did not fix them for 2 years'. If these trolls not stand corrected, someone may even believe them, which actually damages game's reputation.

[Qloos]

Dear thread:  Your presence offends me.  You make the people mad at each other and destroy the harmony of my home.  Please lock.

[Retro]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say that yes, if people feel that good features are taken out or the game otherwise takes a step back from where it was in some way, they have a right to criticize that. Yes, this includes less graphics support.

However, the qualms raised in this thread are a little misplaced and presumptuous, and are pretty easily addressed.

Well, they would have been, if half of the guys in this thread hadn't totally fanboy'd out on him and jumped on his back so much for it. There was no reason to get all dismissive and rude about it, and if anything caused the argument going on now, it was probably that. A simple explanation of why the features he's used to got a little messed up would have sufficed.

Yes. It's really detrimental when people show up trying to get into it, face some sort of issue, and get basically gunned down for it. Most of the time, when people get confused about stuff like this, it's just because they don't know something, not because they're trying to be dicks.

I feel like it probably drives people away who would otherwise stay.

Of course, people might respond with "well, he was a jerk anyway", but hey, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that people tend to get defensive when their questions are answered with hostile rhetoric instead of a more neutral and informative response.

I'm glad both these comments got made and strongly agree with them. Criticisms should be given as much respect as any other comment, provided it's made in a rational and polite way, and negative perspectives (even if the criticizer begins with "I love DF as much as the next guy, but...") immediately results in hackles being raised. It's really not impossible to love something while feeling that it needs more work, or in the OP's case being unimpressed with its advancement (though admittedly in this circumstance I think he was more confused than anything).

Dear thread:  Your presence offends me.  You make the people mad at each other and destroy the harmony of my home.  Please lock.

Actually, the heated argument that threatened to become a lockable flame war died down about an hour ago, and now the discussion is pretty calm. I'd like to not bother Toady and ThreeToe with our nattering if possible. The matter has basically been resolved and the conversation's continuing on peacefully.

[G-Flex]

Yeah, one of the big problems with fan-communities is that the creator of the work (whether it's an indie game, a webcomic, a TV show, or anything else) runs the risk of being surrounded by sycophants (toadies, if you will? heh) who filter out any sort of critical attitude and take any chance they get to defend Dear Leader. This is a big part of the reason why Small Name Big Ego types exist online so much.

I certainly don't think this forum is a strong example of that, and I'm very glad that Toady's a fairly down-to-earth guy who doesn't lord around internet celebrity or a gigantic ego. I've been to places like that, and it's terrible, and results in the guy involved never improving his skills and derailing whatever the project is (in terms of quality more than anything else) because he eventually loses sight of what does/doesn't work for it.

[NFossil]

Well, they would have been, if half of the guys in this thread hadn't totally fanboy'd out on him and jumped on his back so much for it. There was no reason to get all dismissive and rude about it, and if anything caused the argument going on now, it was probably that. A simple explanation of why the features he's used to got a little messed up would have sufficed.

This is my biggest problem with this community. People are unable to acknowledge any criticism of the game whatsoever. You could say "hey guys the game actually formatted my hard drive, I'm kind of disappointed by that" and  people would  be like "WOW TOADY DOES IT FOR FREE AND ITS STILL  IN ALPHA OK SO SHUT UP". People have no perspective at all.

Well, probably because the criticism don't really apply to many people.

For example, the OP couldn't get the tileset to work. I got mine in less than 10 minutes. Window resizing can be done. - and + works with my laptop keyboard. I have been looking forward to the new features in the devlog, and was very satisfied. I do not feel this version "doesn't work" or "fails" in any way.

If someone criticizes something I like using reasons that, plainly, do not exist, to the best of my knowledge, then I will at least feel confused.

[Tilla]

Yes. It's really detrimental when people show up trying to get into it, face some sort of issue, and get basically gunned down for it. Most of the time, when people get confused about stuff like this, it's just because they don't know something, not because they're trying to be dicks.

I feel like it probably drives people away who would otherwise stay.

Of course, people might respond with "well, he was a jerk anyway", but hey, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that people tend to get defensive when their questions are answered with hostile rhetoric instead of a more neutral and informative response.

Doesn't really apply in this case; the question itself was in the form of hostile rhetoric

[Toksyuryel]

Just to clear up some misunderstandings regarding the terms "alpha" and "beta": an alpha release is a release that is not considered feature-complete. Dwarf Fortress would be considered feature-complete when all 100 Core tasks have been completed (aka, v1.00), so until then all releases are alpha releases. A beta release is feature-complete but still contains bugs which are considered serious enough to make the game unstable (which there are likely to be many of once v1.00 does arrive).