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[MiniMacker]

Well, their good in-game, but isn't it the actual case in real life? In real life, a pick would do better against armor than swords or spears, and better than hammers against helmets and skulls. So maybe picks are meant to be like this, as opposed to being an overpowered, bugged weapon (like whips)? And they do have disadvantages, such as how swords are faster.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm quite unlearned on these things.

In-game, their hit performance is counted, but not their ability to parry, their mobility, centre of gravity, durability and range.

If all these things were calculated through statistics, then the pick wouldn't be a weapon of choice, but at least better than nothing.


There are picks suited for combat in real-life, though. They resolve many of the issues of mobility, centre of gravity and durability. It's the equivalent of a hand-axe, but with a spike, rather than a thin blade.

[RAKninja]

Well, their good in-game, but isn't it the actual case in real life? In real life, a pick would do better against armor than swords or spears, and better than hammers against helmets and skulls. So maybe picks are meant to be like this, as opposed to being an overpowered, bugged weapon (like whips)? And they do have disadvantages, such as how swords are faster.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm quite unlearned on these things.

perhaps you need to learn a bit more about actual warfare prior to firearms.    most of the things you see that depict it are flat wrong.  the king of battle was the shield wall.  call it the roman model, as rome conquered the "known world" with it.  it does not take much training to learn how to use a pike and a shield.  you can train green conscripts into passable soldiers in a month or two.   even the vikings used the "shield wall" or phalanx.

in real life, a spear/pike is much better than a pick, mining or military.  simply for the fact of its length.  it's better than axes or swords, which is why eventually such "combo weapons" as the halberd were invented.  essentially, a halberd is an axehead on the end of a spear.  gives you better leverage and range, while retaining the armor piercing spike of the spear.

i'd also venture to say that a hammer is a better "anti-helmet" weapon than a spear or a pick.  helmets tend to be round or conical.  the point of a spear or pick will tend to slide off of the helmet, rather than pierce it.  a hammer crushes, and because its impact is wider than a single point, it will be less likely to slide off of the armor with no effect.

[Anathema]

Well, there are two problems with picks - neither is necessarily a 'bug', but certainly a poor simulation, as someone put it.

-The game does not differentiate between a miner using a common mining pick, and a trained soldier using a pick-like weapon made for combat, such as a war hammer or halberd with a spike on the back. Yes such weapons did exist and were good at piercing plate, but this doesn't mean a tool made for mining rock should be as effective, and neither should a guy who has never done anything but mine rocks all his life be able to use such a weapon in combat as effectively as a trained warrior. Not that a legendary miner should be helpless, I sure wouldn't want to pick a fight with one (no pun intended), but should he really be more effective than a legendary axe/sword/speardwarf? I really don't think so.

-But let's make the simplifying assumption that a dwarven mining pick is actually designed for combat, and mining rock is good practice for picking goblin brains, then we still have problems with the 'war pick' as a weapon. Since studies comparing actual combat effectiveness of medieval melee weapons are next to nonexistant, I am reduced to quoting Wikipedia - hardly a reliable source, I know, but this all should be common sense:

The horseman's pick was often used as a means to penetrate thick plate armour or mail which the standard sword could not. However, a number of drawbacks limited the weapon's effectiveness. Its relative heaviness made it unwieldy and, thus, easily avoided. The injury caused by the weapon was also small and rarely immediately fatal. Additionally, if swung too hard, the weapon often became embedded in the victim or their armour, making retrieval difficult.

So the pick penetrates armor great, but it's slow to swing, easy to avoid, difficult to parry with, etc. Thing is the game doesn't model any of those things - all weapons from daggers to war hammers swing equally fast, all weapons have equal chance to hit and parry, the only difference is the impact they make - and in that respect the game is somewhat accurately modelling the pick as a better way to penetrate armor than a sword or axe, but without modelling all the weapon's limitations, the balance is thrown off.

[davros]

Well, their good in-game, but isn't it the actual case in real life? In real life, a pick would do better against armor than swords or spears, and better than hammers against helmets and skulls. So maybe picks are meant to be like this, as opposed to being an overpowered, bugged weapon (like whips)? And they do have disadvantages, such as how swords are faster.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm quite unlearned on these things.

perhaps you need to learn a bit more about actual warfare prior to firearms.    most of the things you see that depict it are flat wrong.  the king of battle was the shield wall.  call it the roman model, as rome conquered the "known world" with it.  it does not take much training to learn how to use a pike and a shield.  you can train green conscripts into passable soldiers in a month or two.   even the vikings used the "shield wall" or phalanx.

in real life, a spear/pike is much better than a pick, mining or military.  simply for the fact of its length.  it's better than axes or swords, which is why eventually such "combo weapons" as the halberd were invented.  essentially, a halberd is an axehead on the end of a spear.  gives you better leverage and range, while retaining the armor piercing spike of the spear.

i'd also venture to say that a hammer is a better "anti-helmet" weapon than a spear or a pick.  helmets tend to be round or conical.  the point of a spear or pick will tend to slide off of the helmet, rather than pierce it.  a hammer crushes, and because its impact is wider than a single point, it will be less likely to slide off of the armor with no effect.

In real life, the best depends on what the enemy is wearing. If the enemy is wearing Renascence era musketproof plate, your pike is useless. In real life, go for an arblast.

[Mount]

So... if density is all that currently matters to blunt weapons.. wouldn't lead or GOLD be better than silver?  Gold would certainly be classier...

[JTH]

So... if density is all that currently matters to blunt weapons.. wouldn't lead or GOLD be better than silver?  Gold would certainly be classier...

I thought that as well, sans the gold part. Gold dents way too easily to be used in any way other than looking nice. It deforms like putty so if you have a pure-gold rod and his something with it, the rod would bend more readily than conventional war-metals. Lead, however, sounds like a good possible replacement for heavy blunt weapons, but is so dense that all but the strongest hammermen could use it at peak effectiveness. If lead weapons were possible, I'd imagine larger entities such as trolls or (Armok forbid) Cyclops or Titans. Perhaps those who worship Titans would make a giant hammer for them as an offering (though how they'd manage to do that is nothing short of dwarven in its rediculousness).

[Mount]

I thought that as well, sans the gold part. Gold dents way too easily to be used in any way other than looking nice. It deforms like putty so if you have a pure-gold rod and his something with it, the rod would bend more readily than conventional war-metals. Lead, however, sounds like a good possible replacement for heavy blunt weapons, but is so dense that all but the strongest hammermen could use it at peak effectiveness. If lead weapons were possible, I'd imagine larger entities such as trolls or (Armok forbid) Cyclops or Titans. Perhaps those who worship Titans would make a giant hammer for them as an offering (though how they'd manage to do that is nothing short of dwarven in its rediculousness).

I didn't think we had weapon degradation yet, though.  Sure, in real life, a gold hammer would turn into a golden mushroom on a stick after a few hits, but DF is *clearly* not real life -- I could easily butcher my roommate's pet cat in real life.  Except he'd tantrum and hit me with one of the various sharp things in his room.  OK so DF isn't THAT farfetched...  anyway.  My point was that, I *think* you can make gold hammers in game (EDIT: Not without a mood or a mod..)  and if density is currently the only criterion for "effectiveness," then a gold hammer should be awesome.  And classy.

Also... it occurs to me that a candy mace might actually be super-useful for training while minimizing accidental fatalities..  if hammer effectiveness == hammer density, and even wood is SIGNIFICANTLY more dense than candy, then it stands to reason that a wooden mace would actually be more dangerous to train with. 

After poking around in the RAWs..
Candy:  [SOLID_DENSITY:200]
Iron: [SOLID_DENSITY:7850]
Steel:  [SOLID_DENSITY:7850]
Copper:  [SOLID_DENSITY:8930]
Silver: [SOLID_DENSITY:10490]
Lead:  [SOLID_DENSITY:11340]
Gold: [SOLID_DENSITY:19320]
Platinum:  [SOLID_DENSITY:21400]

Assuming that right now, this is the stat that makes hammers smashy, copper is actually about a 10% improvement over iron or steel, silver is about a 25% improvement, lead is only slightly better than silver, but gold is almost 2.5x times smashier than steel, and platinum is almost 3x better... Except you can't normally use gold, lead, or platinum for hammers. Silver's the best you can do without a mood.  (oh.. by the way, as far as I can tell, wood is density 500 -- as is EGGSHELL.  Meaning that a theoretical hammer made of fscking EGGSHELLS would still be 2.5x better than a hammer made of candy.   O_o

[MiniMacker]

Where's Bronze?

[Mount]

Where's Bronze?

in the RAWs.  Go. Hunt. Kill Skuls. 

Bronze: [SOLID_DENSITY:8250] (and I believe Bismuth Bronze - the OTHER weaponizable metal - uses the same figure)

[Zeranamu]

Kill Skuls.

Ha! I have that accolade!

[Shook]

The thing about copper is particularly notable; it's an extremely common metal, and it makes for better smashing than iron and steel (as of now, anyways). So if you have masses of copper, make masses of hammers or maces for your impromptu peasant militia, and save all the good stuff for armor and pokey-slicey weapons. In other words, have all your civilian dorfs carry a copper hammer for emergency debating of existence. Though that would also make your berserk dorfs much worse. Ehh.

[Agent_Irons]

The thing about copper is particularly notable; it's an extremely common metal, and it makes for better smashing than iron and steel (as of now, anyways). So if you have masses of copper, make masses of hammers or maces for your impromptu peasant militia, and save all the good stuff for armor and pokey-slicey weapons. In other words, have all your civilian dorfs carry a copper hammer for emergency debating of existence. Though that would also make your berserk dorfs much worse. Ehh.

If all your dwarves are in a peasant militia, you can also fill your halls with danger room spikes(shields for everyone!). Suitably dwarfy to avoid the distastefulness of danger rooms, I'm sure. Spikes everywhere. Bedrooms. Dining halls. Workshops. Stairwells. Tantrum spirals become ridiculous, as legendary shield users simply block their way through.

[Shook]

Who needs danger rooms when you can have an entire damn danger FORTRESS? Very effective for invaders too, since they'll start the day by getting poked in the lungs and kidneys.

[Gergination]

The instant someone suggested a danger fort I started formulating how I would go about accomplishing said task.

[C0NNULL]

I thought that as well, sans the gold part. Gold dents way too easily to be used in any way other than looking nice. It deforms like putty so if you have a pure-gold rod and his something with it, the rod would bend more readily than conventional war-metals. Lead, however, sounds like a good possible replacement for heavy blunt weapons, but is so dense that all but the strongest hammermen could use it at peak effectiveness. If lead weapons were possible, I'd imagine larger entities such as trolls or (Armok forbid) Cyclops or Titans. Perhaps those who worship Titans would make a giant hammer for them as an offering (though how they'd manage to do that is nothing short of dwarven in its rediculousness).

I think I resent that you think any over engineered thing that may cause death, tantrums, or fun is ridiculous. The word I think you meant was glorious. I get that we are talking of Titans this time, but still... Ridiculous dwarves?, please. Next you'll be telling me they'll walk  outside during a siege to grab a sock. Wait.