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[Twitchel]

well the repercussion after the fight may very well be catastrophic (Assuming they survive childhood together) I'm thinking they might become a very cohesive unit having grown up as Spartans Armoks chosen though I'm sure I'd be very wrong as I'm not sure if such things as tactics and leadership have been implemented into the military yet (May be something for future research in future updates) but on the other hand if this is just a way to keep useless children from crowding the more important parts of the fortress and keeping them (Safeish?) then if one of them die well if done right then only their cellmates and parents would be affected. the cellmates are isolated so no problems there for the most part and the parents are or should be out in the greater fortress where they can get proper happy thoughts. thats where I'm coming from int he research to make this a unit not just a warrior but a unit that would in theory die for each other. though that would later be questioned if they would have loyalty towards the fortress at large or just those ten should they survive whenever such things as loyalty and the like are implemented

-edit- though in the question of making the mortality rate acceptable this would most likely not be the choice to go. what with if one were to die the whole batch would probably go crazy psycho bonkers

-second edit though if you get them used to the thought of death maybe executing puppies and kittens in front of them or paralyzed dwarves or the overly maybe even making them see hammerings  would get them used to the thought of death so that they don't go crazy if one were to die. some pre-mental mental conditioning?

[redpikeman]

Working on some !!SCIENCE!! on this currently using Dwarf Therapist to track stat increases/decreases with Excel to plot growth across months and years... Tracking at Month 1, Month 3, Month 6, Month 9, 1 Year.  I may continue tracking every 3 months after, if they don't go mad or die.

The experiment is set into three phases.

Phase One: Water Treatment! The first 2-5 years will be spent swimming to toughen the little guys up. Getting the correct number of years will take some tweaking.

Phase Two: Animals! Turkeys, specifically. Pretty much what has been tried before to work up combat skills and collect scars.

Phase Three: Scorching!  Upon maturity - a light magma misting from rocks dropped into the covered magma tube below.

I'm currently working in Phase 1. Currently I have four subjects swimming in 5/5 water, and none are dead or crazy yet. One has been in there for 6 months. The water is drained as needed to allow the subjects to eat, sleep, and drink.

Preliminary results are promising.

In a few weeks I'll post my results.

[ImagoDeo]

Sounds good. I've wondered whether or not a swimming school would be worth the effort...

[Girlinhat]

So I've been mulling over the science of this thread for a few months, and think I have the best design style yet.

First is a bit on understanding dwarven child psychology...
1: Dwarven children will do VERY few tasks.  The only things they see fit to participate in, are deconstructing terrain and picking crops if this is enabled for everyone - these are the only two truly 'no profession' jobs.  All other jobs, including pulling levers, are assigned.
2: Dwarven children do not respect burrows.  When assigned, they will not go.  When an alert is given, they will not go.  If they somehow end up inside a burrow after being assigned/alerted, they will usually stay there until they become hungry, thirsty, or sleepy, at which point they'll leave.  Adult dwarves will leave a burrow when starving to death, but children will leave when feeling a bit peckish.
3: The 3 things that dwarven children do respect, are bedroom assignments, meeting zones, and their mother.  If left with nothing to do, they will go to their bedroom.  If there is a meeting zone present, they will go to it.  If there is nothing to occupy themselves, they will follow their mother or wander the fortress.

Second is some understandings of supply logistics...
1: A dwarven child will need approximately 100 food and 200 booze to survive for 12 years (overstocking is safer).
2: Dropping food/booze onto them will eventually be fatal.
3: It's possible to fall down a well.
4: A food stockpile is required to prevent food spoiling.

Third is concepts of trauma and coping...
1: Combat generates negative thoughts.
2: Sobriety causes negative thoughts.
3: Keeping mood elevated is of utmost importance.
4: Having an expensive bedroom, dining hall, or other room can improve mood, even if not being actively used - or if most of the room is even inaccessible.
5: Mist is an incredible mood elevator.

Fourth and final is combat...
1: Injury is rarely an issue, infection from small cuts is what turns out to be the most fatal.
2: Sufficiently large animals can still kill from outright injury.
3: Aggressive animals will cause children to panic, and will attack with extreme frequency and bloodlust.
4: Skill gain is not based on the type of attack incoming, but rather the fact that there is an attack at all.

What do we conclude with?
The interior chamber is a 1x3 room (3x5 including walls) with 1 bed, 1 food stockpile, and 1 meeting hall.
At least one wall needs to be a wall grate or fortification.
Plumbing is essential, as that open wall will allow for mist to seep in from a (probably) artificial waterfall.
Despite the obvious design option, you should NOT build two mirror chambers with fortifications facing the same waterfall, as the children will then be able to see and socialize with each other.  Side-by-side housing is acceptable, but face-to-face is not.
If required, add an adjourning room next to the cage room, filled with lavish furniture.  BEFORE finishing the construction, expand the bed into a room encompassing the expensive furniture, then add walls to separate the room in two - the room will remain in the same formation, so as long as you don't resize the room, it will continue to cover tiles that it can't access.

Dump in a great deal of food and booze.
Assign a food stockpile under it.
Assign a pasture, and put a few turkey or peacock.
Assign the bed as a bedroom, and give it to the child.
When the child walks in, have a mason arrive to seal him in - we're going full Cask of Amontillado here, doors would not be suiting.
Delete the pasture, and instead make a meeting zone.
From left to right, you should have a meeting zone, stockpile, and bed, with a set of fortifications probably along the length of the room to let in mist (or perhaps built L shaped).

The animals will naturally move to the meeting zone, as will the child, causing the animals to become cramped and attack randomly.
The food stockpile keeps the child alive.
The bed allows the child to sleep away from the animals, which is more important than you might think.
Using TAME animals allows the child to step away without panic, as sustained attack can prove extremely fatal.
The mist should help with infections and cleanliness.

It may be worth building a rail system overhead to deliver good through a hatch directly above the food stockpile (where the child is unlikely to stand) in case food/booze is miscounted or rots.
Keep in mind, this is extremely slow training for extremely long-lived fortresses.  Skill and stat gain will be slow, but should be steady, and most importantly keep the child out of adult hair until it can prove useful.

[wierd]

Depending on the density of poultry present in the conditioning aparatus, there is a potential cause of failure.

Without nest boxes present in the test chamber, it is possible that the poultry components will cease being of sufficient number to effectively condition the subject.

To determine if the risk of such failure can simply be mitigated statistically with an ideal starting number of poultry, we need to conduct some experiments.

[Repseki]

I feel that trying to breed the poultry in the room with the child probably isn't the best idea anyway. The number of chicks, if any actually hatch, that might then make it to maturity could probably overwhelm the trainee, or cause issues with miasma. You can always drop a few more in through the food hatch if you have to.

It sounds like this might actually be close to working somewhat consistently. I might have to stop setting my child cap as low as I do...

[wierd]

That's why I suggested testing with incrementally fixed numbers of poultry being introduced to the chamber, and tracking the rate of conflict, injury, poultry loss, and skill gain.

For a reasonable lower bound, i'd say 3 turkeys as the minimum; with 2, if one of the turkeys dies, then only 1 bird will remain, and the apparatus will require delivery of additional equipment.  The basic idea of this setup is to entomb children in the oubliette and forget about them for 12 years, and when they emerge, have them be well versed in how to dodge attacks. Having to monitor the test chambers to make sure that sufficient birds are always present detracts from that goal.

If it can be mitigated by delivering an ideal number of birds, such that even with losses through fighting the number of birds remains sufficient to condition the subject over the intended period, then there would be no need to introduce any nest boxes. Naturally, there is a point where delivering too many birds is possible. To establish the upper bound, we need to conduct experiments and collect data. We can then get curves for rate of poultry population decline, rate of combat initiation, rate of injury of test subject, and rate of skill improvement in test subject. From there we can derive what the statistical impact of each additional bird is on the experiment, and arrive at a mathematically ideal number of birds to supply.

[Lielac]

The application of poultry could be made simpler if you used a type of bird whose max age lower bound was no lower than 12. I see mentions of turkey only, but blue peafowl have a max age of 15-30, so if you bred clutches and made sure to only put ones hatched three years ago or fewer in with the children, you won't have to worry about old age attrition. According to the wiki they're only size 4000 instead of 5000, though, which could require additional testing if you've only been using turkeys. Also you might not have access to them, which would suck.

[Girlinhat]

Peacocks are a surprisingly useful creature, their weight, breeding habits, and lifespan make them ideal for a number of uses.  They'd probably work excellently as child fodder.  Especially when you consider their illustrious plumage is a perfect contrast to the stark living conditions.  Also peacocks are kind of assholes, as far as birds go (which means they're EXTRA asshole) and pretty mean, perfect for the job.

[coldmonkey]

I was thinking, Swimmer may not the the optional skill for increasing attributes, but if you get a child to Legendary+5 it'll be faster in water than on land. After that one could drop other minor hostile creatures with few or no innate Swimmer skills into the same water, to give the dwarf child a substantial speed bonus in comparison.

[ImagoDeo]

I have begun my experiment.

• 5 Blue Peacocks
• Around 200 food, around 100 booze
• One Artifact bed worth $55,600
• One mad duchess (#@%*& jealousy)
• One meeting zone that the cell's occupants totally ignore
• One Dwarven Child:

Here's a picture of the setup:



In case this works, I've dug out other cells nearby. There are holes in the ceilings of each cell and I can drop in food, booze, clothes, whatever the kid needs.

[monk12]

Very good! I appreciate the screenshot of the subject, since when I did my own try we ended up noticing interesting things about soul attribute decay, and it would be interesting to see how consistent that is. I myself kept checking on a monthly basis (helped by Soundsense and a monthly military rotation) though seasonal would probably work too.

[ImagoDeo]

Had an initial speedbump to take care of; the duchess was getting pissed that little Oddom had an artifact bed, so we switched it for a tunnel tube one. Necessitated redoing the entire setup, but everything's in place now, so things are moving along.

I'll commence records of the child's skills and attributes via screenshot from here on out. If I remember to do it properly, it'll be every three months. Caravans shall be my reminder. And I'll just try to remember for winter.

So far, rates of attack by the cocks on the child have been very very low. Everyone's ignoring the meeting zone. The child sleeps on the booze stockpile as often as on her bed. I'm not sure why any of these things are happening, but that's the facts. I think it's going to be a very very slow process unlikely to culminate with a supersoldier - more likely, Oddom will spend her entire childhood in a terrible place away from friends and family and be released when she's thirteen with little or no overall improvement other than (perhaps) no friendships, no social skills, and some tragedy training.

We'll see.

[ImagoDeo]

I'm confused. One of the peacocks has vanished completely.

There were five tossed into the pit. One died of suffocation after one of his fellows pecked him in the neck and got his spinal cord. Another has completely vanished: no skeleton, no corpse, nothing.

Did... did she... eat it...?!

[gtaguy]

I'm confused. One of the peacocks has vanished completely.

There were five tossed into the pit. One died of suffocation after one of his fellows pecked him in the neck and got his spinal cord. Another has completely vanished: no skeleton, no corpse, nothing.

Did... did she... eat it...?!

Yes, what kind of dwarf are you? I rip the heads off my enemies and shit down their throats! So I would assume a child could eat the corpse of a befallen combatant to gain its power.