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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 720908 times)

Leafsnail

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10035 on: December 01, 2012, 03:26:31 pm »

They would magically not exist if we got rid of all government spending.
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Sirus

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10036 on: December 01, 2012, 03:30:14 pm »

They would magically not exist if we got rid of all government spending.
Given enough time and no access to resources, eventually that would become technically true...
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10037 on: December 01, 2012, 03:48:11 pm »

It's always interesting how people from other states (or countries?) seem to think Seattle is the crux of civilization in Washington state :P  It's not even the capitol of Washington, guys.  (Just poking fun, don't take it personally)

Source: I'm from Spokane, born and raised. Seattle is the crux of Washington's civilization. The state is nothing but farmland till you hit fallout aka Richland and the more northern east-border counties. There's literally nothing of note in the state, except maybe Seattle, and that's only because it's the only city the rest of the US know about existing here, so that's basically a consolation prize. Like being Des Moines.

Oh, and NYT has released a database of corporations that get subsidies from local governments.

Here's the explorable database, with lots of neat details and tidbits, like counties and exact amounts rewarded. Sortable too! Never before has exploring the vast inequity of our governance been more easy.


TL;DR $80.4 billion in incentives each year go to corporations around the country to entice local job growth and keep jobs in the places they are. But noone actually tracks if any of these payments create jobs, and have no way to even track it. So they're funneling money to corporations for the simple fact that they have the power to extort it.

1/4 of that yearly amount is in Texas, go figure.

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“I just shake my head every time it happens, it just gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach,” said Sean O’Byrne, the vice president of the Downtown Council of Kansas City. “It sounds like I’m talking myself out of a job, but there ought to be a law against what I’m doing.”
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 03:49:54 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10038 on: December 01, 2012, 04:35:12 pm »

Quite frankly, the best "welfare reform" in my eyes would be removing the welfare state altogether.
So... what is your position on the poor then?

They would be left to starve. I would laugh at them while twirling my mustache and drinking thousand dollar wine

Private charity would be far less crowded out and would become more effective, though that's the obvious answer. Mutual aid associations would become common if certain regulations tied to welfare (especially Medicare and the healthcare sector in general) were removed, and would generally be far more capable of providing assistance than the government. Prices in general would tend to either stay steady or drop over time, making things more affordable. The end of the minimum wage would mean most would start with lower wages, but as they built up experience they would end up making far more than they would have otherwise, and would have more opportunities to boot. Getting a job would be significantly more straightforward, and unemployment would be quite a bit lower.
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Leafsnail

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10039 on: December 01, 2012, 04:43:00 pm »

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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10040 on: December 01, 2012, 04:46:01 pm »

Too bad that's never happened ever. People will be charitable or not with or without the existence of government assistance. If I volunteer, I don't think to myself "gee why am I even bothering these welfare lovers already have all the help they need". No one thinks like that, and in the event that someone does think like that they'd be the kind of ultimate selfish dick who wouldn't let a moment of their precious time be spent on the good of somebody else no matter what the situation is.

We've seen in US history and the present elsewhere what a lack of minimum wage leads to, and that is slave wages. If a business owner can pay their people crumbs and let all the wealth pool at the very top to benefit them, that is what they will do. Most minimum wage jobs don't go anywhere even now. Wal-Mart cashiers don't work really hard and one day become big shot executives, contrary to popular belief.
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Zangi

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10041 on: December 01, 2012, 04:47:44 pm »

They would magically not exist if we got rid of all government spending.
Given enough time and no access to resources, eventually that would become technically true...
Out of sight, out of mind.  They technically are not considered homeless if they are in jail, I would think.
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scriver

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10042 on: December 01, 2012, 05:47:08 pm »

The end of the minimum wage would mean most would start with lower wages, but as they built up experience they would end up making far more than they would have otherwise, and would have more opportunities to boot. Getting a job would be significantly more straightforward, and unemployment would be quite a bit lower.

Please explain how lower wages is possibly going to lead to higher wages.

And what kind of "more opportunities" are you imagining? Because the only opportunities available would be other, below-minimum-wage drudgery jobs. That's definitely the kind of opportunities you want when you're already working two jobs to support your family and can't afford to do anything about your chronic back-pain; the chance to start all over again from the lowest of low positions.

Face the truth, man. The reason minimum wage laws had to be made in the first place was that people were being abused. Workers are still being abused all over the world where there aren't any laws like these. The same thing would happen again in the US or Europe if we were to remove ours.

What next, will you be arguing we should do away with all workplace safety regulations again as well?
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Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10043 on: December 01, 2012, 05:56:02 pm »

He probably would.
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Sirus

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10044 on: December 01, 2012, 06:29:28 pm »

They would magically not exist if we got rid of all government spending.
Given enough time and no access to resources, eventually that would become technically true...
Out of sight, out of mind.  They technically are not considered homeless if they are in jail, I would think.
Actually, I was referring to the possibility of them starving to death. But your's is good too.
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alexandertnt

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10045 on: December 01, 2012, 06:46:23 pm »

Private charity would be far less crowded out and would become more effective, though that's the obvious answer. Mutual aid associations would become common if certain regulations tied to welfare (especially Medicare and the healthcare sector in general) were removed, and would generally be far more capable of providing assistance than the government. Prices in general would tend to either stay steady or drop over time, making things more affordable. The end of the minimum wage would mean most would start with lower wages, but as they built up experience they would end up making far more than they would have otherwise, and would have more opportunities to boot. Getting a job would be significantly more straightforward, and unemployment would be quite a bit lower.

This contains alot of assertions. Would private charities become more effective? That would require more people to pay into them (would they?), which would remove incentive for investment. "far more capable of providing assistance than the government" Why? The governmnent makes far more money much more reliably and has far more infestructure in place, it would seem they are much more capable.

I agree that American healthcare needs reform, but not in that direction. Many first world countries have larger and more efficient government health care programs (eg NHS) and most have had them more several decades and have managed to support them through economic booms and busts.

"The end of the minimum wage would mean most would start with lower wages, but as they built up experience they would end up making far more than they would have otherwise" Would they end up making more? Would this apply to everyone or would there be significant chunks of the populace working for $2 an hour, relying on the unpredictable availability of charity?

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It's also worth noting that quite often the people who are at the top brackets don't necessarily make that much money in the first place, whereas those who aren't can still be absurdly rich. For example, the established rich (the kind who would actually be buying their third summer home) would have most of their wealth in assets, not income, and would pay quite a bit less in income tax regardless of what the highest brackets paid. Inversely, someone who actually works their ass off to make their money, or actively runs an innovative business, gets taxed quite a bit more.

Most people in the top bracket are earning that much, that is why they are in the top bracket (the top bracket is 388,351, which is alot of money). It is true though that the absurdly rich are undertaxed, but this could be solved by increasing taxes (for example tax extra house purchases, or even some sort of Robin Hood tax).

This is not a problem solved by decreasing taxes, it is solved by fixing regression in the tax system and making it more actually-progressive.


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Science certainly is an investment, but the government has a tendency to crowd out the competition, and its most useful inventions have a tendency to be outlandishly expensive for what they're worth (eg. most of the innovations coming out of the DoD).

There was nothing stopping any private company from researching an internet-like infestructure. Infact there is little crowding out (except in regards to understandably restricted things like nuclear weapons etc). Alot of research is contracted out to universities/private companies as it is anyway.

"most useful inventions have a tendency to be outlandishly expensive for what they're worth", Is this an opinion?

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Capital Gains tax cuts in particular incentivize investment, which leads to saving, which leads to sustainable production, which strengthens the economy in general. This is over a long term, but it certainly helps.

My diagram has showen virtually no correlation between Capital Gains tax. It is understandable that a ridiculous level of tax would hurt incentives, but the low correlation would suggest that the tax is already so low that it is having virtually no effect.

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With the exception of Germany, I actually can't think of any European countries that have sustained their government programs without causing huge economic imbalances (France), running up massive debt (Italy, Spain, the UK, etc), or recession followed by major reforms (Sweden). Even Germany's debt has shot up rather dramatically over the years, and they're easily the strongest economy in Europe.

That is because it is a global recession. I don't see how being closer to a laissez-faire capitalism system would prevent this from happening (especially given that most of the fault is placed on private investors). America's huge debt and its less socialist/interventive government policies (as opposed to most of europe) do not seem to have helped.

This recession is not the indicator that government intervention/tax is unsustainable (These happen from time to time, plus economic crises are an expected part of capitalism). I woudn't be agains't a flexable policy though, one that can adjust depending on the economic situation etc. But permanently ending some of these things does not seem necessary.

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Also, a lot of American welfare is distinctly different from European welfare. For example, Medicare and Medicaid, taking up a gigantic portion of US spending, were originally attempts by the US government to make healthcare more affordable to the groups they're aimed at, and we can see today how successful THAT was. Most European countries don't have such a program at all for rather obvious reasons. The other major expensive American welfare project is Social Security, which European countries DO have in the form of pensions. However, aforementioned pensions are generally kept afloat by raising the age limit at which they can be received or reducing payouts, in short, screwing over the elderly who paid into them.

I agree that they (Medicare and Medicaid) are not very sucessful. They cost alot and are not very effective. Alot of Eurpoean countries have some form of socialized medicine (the biggest example being the UK's NHS) and are for the most part not in need of these programs (at least not near the same level as the US). I would think that reforms towards something like this would be capable of providing more efficient health care to the poor, and (hopefully) away from facelifts and other inefficient wastes-of-money the private sector has created.

The raising age limit is to coincide with the increasing age that people work upto as well as the increasing life expectancy. Something will probably have to be done, mind you, do deal with the aging baby boomers.


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Most currencies would end up being backed by different things, but I'd imagine a lot would just revert to a gold standard of some kind. In turn, conversion would be simple, straightforward, and rejection of currency unlikely. If one of the major producers began cutting its reserves back too much, or inflating heavily, pulling out would be fairly simple and the overall effects on the economy wouldn't  be as harsh. On the other hand, when the Fed does such things, Americans are basically stuck with the consequences of whatever boneheaded policy they implement without many alternatives.

Currencies backed by the gold standard is unreliable, there is a reason why most countries abandoned it (Great Depression). To transfer from one currency to anoter still requires aquisition of the physical currency, it would become messy dealing with dand aquiring these currencies, regardless of being backed by gold.

Pulling out would not at all be fairly simple, when a company has large stores of cash of a certain type (eg a bank), swapping that around for another currency would be quite a complex process. Ontop of that now the people who go to purchase/withdraw now have to work with different currencies.

Now people won't be stuck with the "consequences of whatever boneheaded policy" private money producers make (Because there is nothing stopping them from being as bad as the government).

As I said, there are reasons most economicists do not support it.
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Techhead

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10046 on: December 01, 2012, 11:24:06 pm »

Volunteer gladiatorial matches! With seniors!
Basically, two people go in, and they each bet their Social Security fund against their opponent in a fight to the death! Win, and double your SS check! Lose, you die! (Injuries sustained in the arena are paid out of your double SS fund, not Medicare)

You might think this to be a break-even arrangement for the government, but you forget something: Sometimes they both die!

Also, you can sell tickets.
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Mego

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10047 on: December 01, 2012, 11:25:16 pm »

Volunteer gladiatorial matches! With seniors!
Basically, two people go in, and they each bet their Social Security fund against their opponent in a fight to the death! Win, and double your SS check! Lose, you die! (Injuries sustained in the arena are paid out of your double SS fund, not Medicare)

You might think this to be a break-even arrangement for the government, but you forget something: Sometimes they both die!

Also, you can sell tickets.

Aside from the obvious humanitarian/legal objection, I can't think of any.

Flying Dice

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10048 on: December 01, 2012, 11:40:36 pm »

Volunteer gladiatorial matches! With seniors!
Basically, two people go in, and they each bet their Social Security fund against their opponent in a fight to the death! Win, and double your SS check! Lose, you die! (Injuries sustained in the arena are paid out of your double SS fund, not Medicare)

You might think this to be a break-even arrangement for the government, but you forget something: Sometimes they both die!

Also, you can sell tickets.

Psh, tickets? Pay-Per-View! Set it up like one of those robot fighting shows so they can bring in sledgehammers, circular saws, and so on.
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: American Election Megathread - It's Over
« Reply #10049 on: December 02, 2012, 01:06:33 am »

Okay, all my joking aside...


First of all, you want an example of what "Private Charities" do when government gets out of the way? Plenty of examples in Africa!
Some stellar examples there. Of paticular note is the gift of books to starving people and the requirement of conversion to their religion for any aid.
Yea, private charities? To hell with that, I'd rather have half my barely over minimum wage check be taken. It could be the next Stephen Hawking being fed only with foodstamps right now. Will voluntarilly provide it? Nope. I could use that money for purposes of greater immediate benefit to me. I do provide to charities, but nowhere near what the government does in my name. People don't have to starve because of it. You honestly think YOU, person about to argue with me, that you are any different? That without the government you'd pay the same or more to a charity that helps as free of conditions as the Government? Or maybe you think Bibles are tasty.

Now, the other thing... Rich people and taxation. I personally don't advocate taxing assets more, and nobody is. Farmers are usually multi-millionares on paper, and barely making it in reality.
No, what you are seeing here is advocacy of increased taxation on rich income. Capital Gains, regular income, other income sources. If you are making $250,000 a year, your problems aren't managing less than $500 in savings to protect a person who is in an unstable job and helping a unemployed sister and brother and nephews eat. Your problems are keeping your relatives from abusing you and taking another $500 that week to gamble with.
Why do I know this? I make less than $40000 a year. Supporting my family while  protecting another person is my burden, but that other person's unstable job is employed as a caretaker for someone earning about $155000 a year(by my best guess based on the assets they talk about infront of that other person, which they do freely.)
When people talk about how unfair it is to tax the rich, I remember that Capital Gains are taxed lower than my income. If the rich can't stand a little more taxes, they can afford an airplane ticket out. I can't. So yea, it's not about assets, but income.
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