Post by: Knave on June 06, 2020, 03:45:43 pm
(https://www.matrixgames.com/images/products/457/product_landscape_image.jpg)
Quote
"Shadow Empire is an immersive 4x game, putting players as leaders of small cities on random-generated planets, besieged by threats of all kind and forced to gather every imaginable natural resource in order to survive. Face the post-apocalypse, rebuild civilization and write your own destiny!"
(https://www.matrixgames.com/images/screens/457/screen_5ed79b05c1dd3.jpg)
Definitely has that mid-nineties feel. You start by generating your planet type including size, star type, rainfall, planetary age, atmosphere and then how badly it was blown up during the giant Galactic Republic civil war. One game you might be fighting over a barren, but mineral rich moon, and the next a poisonous jungle-world with 10 meter tall land squids.
You then have to work your city state up from Mad Max tech-level and rediscover all the old tech through conquest and Ruin-excavation. Next thing you know you have plasma guns, mechs and the occasional nuke.
Leans heavy on the wargame, so logistics and supply are king to keeping your army and people running smoothly. You also have to deal with your cabinet leaders who have a range of skills and stats from wizard to incompetent. The happier they are the more bonuses you will get, but if they're very unhappy they might try to rebel.
Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1154840/Shadow_Empire/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1154840/Shadow_Empire/)
Matrix:https://www.matrixgames.com/game/shadow-empire
(https://www.matrixgames.com/game/shadow-empire)
EDIT: And here's a {NEW!} link to SET-UP series by Dastactic w/ new aircraft. Very good for learning the game and a lot of the under-the-hood mechanics:
(HERE) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idJWDKed9Zk[/url)
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 06, 2020, 04:48:07 pm
The cool part is you can even start on a Dune style desert planet. Though from reading, it doesn't seem water is needed except for farms. But the developer I believe plans to add water supply in the future in a free update. He also plans to add modding support down the line (though he isn't 100% on this). And naval/air stuff, but that is only depending how good the game sells. If the game sells poorly, don't think will be much developer support so I hope it does well. And if modding ever happens, there needs to be a Dune mod :P
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 06, 2020, 05:54:07 pm
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 06, 2020, 08:45:20 pm
Do you know what the victory conditions or diplomatic options are, by chance? Conquest-only would make sense, I suppose, but having more options would be lovely.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on June 07, 2020, 02:31:47 am
Post by: Majestic7 on June 07, 2020, 05:36:15 am
Post by: Yoink on June 07, 2020, 07:55:22 am
Sixty bucks seems a bit friggin' steep, but then I have some disposable income at the moment that isn't currently ear-marked for anything else.
Also, I really dig the fact that they give you the option to buy a physical copy, complete with a printed manual. *swoon*
Post by: Majestic7 on June 07, 2020, 08:35:29 am
Post by: dehimos on June 07, 2020, 08:43:43 am
Matrix prices their games too high, though. I can't help but think they'd make more money if the games cost 30 bucks, so more people would buy them. Maybe they count on being niche enough that people will buy them no matter the cost. *shrug* It is a shame though - I'm pretty sure Distant Worlds, for example, had been a lot more popular at cheaper price and despite being an excellent game, it was left with a small audience.
Until tomorrow, you can pay 30.39€ with this:
https://www.matrixgames.com/game/shadow-empire
(https://www.matrixgames.com/game/shadow-empire)
currently 20% (UNTIL THE 8TH) with Wargamer20
Post by: EuchreJack on June 07, 2020, 09:55:10 am
Eh, looks like it'll do a good job squashing free time, but I wouldn't blame anyone for waiting 1-2 years for its price to hopefully drop to the $20-30 range.
Post by: Shooer on June 07, 2020, 10:32:06 am
I would rather get it from Steam than deal with updating it through Matrix games.
Very interested to play though. Been a fan of the devs previous games. Just wish they had been more popular so the modding scene could have been bigger.
Post by: Knave on June 07, 2020, 10:50:46 am
Do you know what the victory conditions or diplomatic options are, by chance? Conquest-only would make sense, I suppose, but having more options would be lovely.
I believe the victory conditions are conquest only at the moment. Controlling a certain % of hexes and population while ensuring none of the other major territories are close.
Looks interesting, but that price...
Eh, looks like it'll do a good job squashing free time, but I wouldn't blame anyone for waiting 1-2 years for its price to hopefully drop to the $20-30 range.
Yeah the matrix prices are always a bit steep, but the 20% off discount with promise of steam key made me pull the trigger as the setting really spoke to me. Once it hits steam Matrix have been pretty good about having sales recently.
Been having fun trying to hold my territory between bands of roving freemen, and giant squids. And a theocratic regime has rolled up on my border and doesn't seem to happy either. Think I'm going to have to recruit another brigade soon!
Post by: EuchreJack on June 07, 2020, 11:08:34 am
It should be up on Steam later this year.
I would rather get it from Steam than deal with updating it through Matrix games.
Very interested to play though. Been a fan of the devs previous games. Just wish they had been more popular so the modding scene could have been bigger.
As Knave mentioned, they'll probably provide Steam Keys, so it should eventually be updating via Steam.
Also, the manual is 181 pages. While Matrix does price their games high, they are good games.
Post by: dehimos on June 07, 2020, 11:46:02 am
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 07, 2020, 12:55:37 pm
The manual packaged with the game is the 181-page one, complete with self-mentions of 'fix this table for the final release' and things like that. Heh. So thanks for sharing the proper one.
I ended up playing it until about 4 AM last night, so here are a few initial observations:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 07, 2020, 02:36:38 pm
is there a whole genre of these or is this more of a unique thing?
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 07, 2020, 02:47:16 pm
This one is more like a let's play than a tutorial, but he does show how some things are in the grand scheme of gameplay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrtwDgj_Px8&list=PL8cNlze3fGQgYVDLiqxvpMnlWo3-lEkR7
and two playlists from Dastactic
A let's play as well, though some of it goes in-depth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aN3NcybwiY&list=PLGB6RkFB7ZmMFY1EnIhYPDW3nv0oBvgzg
and dastactic again, with actual indepth tutorial videos without the let's play stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BivVweJ5-iA&list=PLGB6RkFB7ZmPoXDAaR8FbM3xujwMsDgEv
Post by: Vivalas on June 07, 2020, 03:43:13 pm
3600 troops to kill 19 syndicate cells? What the hell kinda criminals are these guys? At least the syndicate is dead, but, holy crap that was 3600 recruits gone in a blink. :-[
Post by: EuchreJack on June 07, 2020, 04:15:40 pm
It's an awesome strategic command system, but don't expect the AI to just roll over. Frankly, the AI is better able to handle the complexity than you are, at least initially.
...now if I can just get a ruler with a monocle, all will be right with the world.
Post by: Karlito on June 07, 2020, 04:33:06 pm
Haven't gotten far enough to see if diplomacy among major powers is fleshed out, but allied victory is an option. Diplomacy with minor powers is relatively sparse, unfortunately. Thankfully, that's offset by internal dynamics.
Pretty sparse, or at least, it requires you to be lucky enough to have a major willing to engage in diplomacy. For a lot of the cards like trade agreement or non-aggression pact I had 900+ difficulties. And once you get into a war with a Major, it seems pretty impossible to make peace, since you need 35+ relations to play Propose Peace, but you're at war- which lowers relations to zero...
Though I've had a lot of fun granting minors my protection which instantly annexes them once they're invaded. The AI seems not that great at actually following up their war declarations with troops on the ground as well.
I've been having a blast with the game in general.
Post by: E. Albright on June 07, 2020, 09:11:58 pm
Post by: acidia on June 07, 2020, 10:09:50 pm
Post by: Shooer on June 07, 2020, 10:24:12 pm
very interesting. I always loved the depth of wargames and always hated how they presented you a strategic setup you had no hands in making and just forces you to deal with it.Anything from the same dev has been really open for scenarios/setting.
is there a whole genre of these or is this more of a unique thing?
People's tactics is free and the earliest of his tactics series I've played. Has a large amount of fairly unique scenarios. Cops Vs. Robbers, zombie out break, two fighting banana republics are some that I remember.
Advance Tactics is built to represent WW1 to near modern (roughly ie. you upgrade unit types with research so you start with Rifle I which is outclassed by Rifle VI and so on) but with random maps and the ability to use real world cultures to flavor nations and locations. You can then set different cultures to "like" each other more or less by setting a production modifier if they are occupied by enemy/friendly cultured nations.
Edit: Also grabbed this earlier. $30 after the discount and steam key in future, I'm in.
Edit Edit: The game miss-spelled Carp.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 07, 2020, 11:15:48 pm
very interesting. I always loved the depth of wargames and always hated how they presented you a strategic setup you had no hands in making and just forces you to deal with it.Anything from the same dev has been really open for scenarios/setting.
is there a whole genre of these or is this more of a unique thing?
People's tactics is free and the earliest of his tactics series I've played. Has a large amount of fairly unique scenarios. Cops Vs. Robbers, zombie out break, two fighting banana republics are some that I remember.
Advance Tactics is built to represent WW1 to near modern (roughly ie. you upgrade unit types with research so you start with Rifle I which is outclassed by Rifle VI and so on) but with random maps and the ability to use real world cultures to flavor nations and locations. You can then set different cultures to "like" each other more or less by setting a production modifier if they are occupied by enemy/friendly cultured nations.
Edit: Also grabbed this earlier. $30 after the discount and steam key in future, I'm in.
Edit Edit: The game miss-spelled Carp.I've now spent probably an hour generating worlds. Do I go Siwa with carbon-oxygen giant squid or go Medusa with it's fluoride/hydrogen-peroxide/other !!FUN!! biologies.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Personally been doing the desert planet, cause...wellllll...Dune :P
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 08, 2020, 12:00:09 am
Can take a bit of time to get used to the fact that despite having exploration like a 4x, using the logistics of a wargame means you can't just send an explorer across the world.
Post by: Journier on June 08, 2020, 01:26:42 am
At a glance reminds me of Emperor of the Fading suns... which if well implemented is a GOOD thing.
no space, just a planet, but also got that feel. Matrix doesnt give refunds even if game doesnt function on your system. so id wait for steam release though.
Post by: ivanovic on June 08, 2020, 06:44:05 am
I usually suck at this kind of game, but for some reason this one really excites me. I like the sound of the setting a lot more than the usual historical (where I feel like I ought to be doing whatever really happened back then) or galaxy-spanning kinds (I just don't find watching/running an empire on that scale engaging).
That's exactly my case... I can't fully enjoy games like Civilization because the real world empire and city names randomly placed on the map break the immersion for me (that's why I prefer mods that provide a fantasy setting like Fall from Heaven 2 for Civ IV or Faerun for Civ 5). And I don't fully enjoy games like Stellaris because for some reason I can't fully savor the sense of power in a galaxy-spanning empire.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on June 08, 2020, 07:21:27 am
Same here. Glad to hear I'm not a freak about this. :PI usually suck at this kind of game, but for some reason this one really excites me. I like the sound of the setting a lot more than the usual historical (where I feel like I ought to be doing whatever really happened back then) or galaxy-spanning kinds (I just don't find watching/running an empire on that scale engaging).
That's exactly my case... I can't fully enjoy games like Civilization because the real world empire and city names randomly placed on the map break the immersion for me (that's why I prefer mods that provide a fantasy setting like Fall from Heaven 2 for Civ IV or Faerun for Civ 5).
Quote
And I don't fully enjoy games like Stellaris because for some reason I can't fully savor the sense of power in a galaxy-spanning empire.
I do get a kick out of Stellaris. But TBH I liked CK2 better. Even more so if modded, and even more so in random maps.
Post by: Knave on June 08, 2020, 08:12:30 am
fixing CTDs and updating balance already. Expect an official patch to probably land within a week through the actual installer.
Changelogs
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
EDIT: Getting reports that the 20% off wargamer coupon is no longer valid "Order creation failure due to problematic input.. Coupon has exceeded maximum use limit ."
Maybe it was getting more use than they thought it would!
Post by: EuchreJack on June 08, 2020, 09:54:16 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 08, 2020, 10:35:53 am
Post by: EuchreJack on June 08, 2020, 11:21:32 am
Post by: Shooer on June 08, 2020, 11:30:13 am
Also a religious cult nuked all of their neighbors close to the start so 1/3 of the world was irradiated.
I love this game.
Saw Dastactic genned a world were you couldn't grow normal crops, but you could grow local moss/slime in the clay fields for food.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on June 08, 2020, 11:45:54 am
Post by: Iceblaster on June 08, 2020, 01:03:06 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 08, 2020, 06:29:55 pm
This game sounds really cool, sadly it's not on steam yet, so I'm gonna have to wait a bit to get it.You could just buy it and install it, and then run it via steam. I do that for a lot of my non-steam games.
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 08, 2020, 06:49:34 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 08, 2020, 08:28:23 pm
Post by: Shooer on June 08, 2020, 09:30:14 pm
Their army definitely outnumber me. Worse it was made of as many bikes as troops, and way too many irregular buggies and tanks. Also they were attacking out of a desert. So Mad Max slavers.
The thing that won the war against them was the large mountain ranges that litter the map. Specifically the range known as The Death Alps. Just held them in the pass and flattened them with artillery.
Now to pay the cost of getting more/better roads across these mountains.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on June 08, 2020, 10:00:29 pm
Making money seems the hardest part, although I'm not sure how important that actually is. Also how important is radiation and how do I approach/deal with it other than with the anti-rad buildings?
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 08, 2020, 10:36:26 pm
Long-term, though, you just need to get a private economy growing. As time passes your folks will start to fill that out, but you have the option (via talking to the zone governor) of stimulating investment. Costs credits to make credits and all that. I think raising one's economics profile (as opposed to enforcement/government) also raises private investment. There are also strategic cards (I assume associated with the economics profile) that will bring forth new private facilities.
As to radiation, I haven't had to deal with it yet so can't comment.
Post by: EuchreJack on June 09, 2020, 12:35:12 am
Radiation can be ignored up to a point. It takes 400 rads to penetrate envirosuits and buildings, from what I can tell.
Post by: Yoink on June 09, 2020, 05:56:17 am
Just wanted to make sure, since there's no telling when the physical edition will actually get here. Their website is... kinda not the most helpful.
Post by: EuchreJack on June 09, 2020, 07:21:31 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Knave on June 09, 2020, 08:10:15 am
Quick question: if you buy an edition with the boxed game, you get a digital copy right away, right?
Just wanted to make sure, since there's no telling when the physical edition will actually get here. Their website is... kinda not the most helpful.
My understanding is that if you buy the physical box you get digital download as well :)
Quote
PHYSICAL SHIPMENT
When you select this option you can use our digital download option to get the game right away and start playing. Then have a boxed copy of the game shipped to you as a backup for permanent storage. With a backup, you'll be prepared for whatever comes your way-whether it's a system crash, a computer virus damaging your files or the software simply no longer functioning as it should. You will be billed to have the game shipped in a printed DVD box with a printed DVD and your serial number.
Post by: Yoink on June 09, 2020, 09:18:28 am
Definitely thinking I might pick this up.
Post by: Shooer on June 09, 2020, 10:25:25 am
Just got a nice bonus in my current game. Activated an archive and it gave me Battledress (sealed power armor) before I even unlocked combat armor. Now to build a heavy industry to produce machine parts, on this mineral poor and young world.
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 09, 2020, 12:34:26 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on June 09, 2020, 12:43:11 pm
Speaking of which, I feel like I am constantly floundering for resources. Usually metals and IP, what do y'all build in the first few turns to get to the right foot?
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 09, 2020, 01:13:53 pm
Go for the economic council first - in addition to researching needed infrastructure buildings, they're also in charge of prospecting your territory for resource nodes.
Initial IP production is enough to get by for a bit, but do try to save up for a first industry building before too long. Try to resist building roads if possible, as those costs easily add up over several turns - try to keep to existing roads for exploration to keep supply going okay.
Making your first army a bunch of footsloggers also reduces the industry costs compared to motorized troops. Early armor like APCs are tempting, but the IP investment is pretty huge and is probably better spent on infrastructure buildings (depending on one's military situation).
Post by: E. Albright on June 09, 2020, 02:08:12 pm
Activated an archive and it gave me Battledress (sealed power armor) before I even unlocked combat armor. Now to build a heavy industry to produce machine parts, on this mineral poor and young world.
Pffft, that's nothing. In my current game I'm maybe 15 turns in and an archive gave me fusion missiles. Not that I have the technical infrastructure to build them, of course. I also got a GR tacnuke mobile rocket launcher (which ofc I can't reload, so it's one and done). The RNG seems to be not-so-subtly making suggestions as to how I should be looking at the world...
Post by: Knave on June 09, 2020, 05:11:57 pm
Quote
-Increased the cost of the Ancient Archive Fate Stratagem from 2 FP to 4 FP *
-Ancient Archive and other random Tech picks are now limited to Tech Groups you have access too. I am sorry some people liked this, but it was really more overpowered than intended.
Post by: Majestic7 on June 09, 2020, 05:27:51 pm
My only complaint so far (other than barebones diplomacy and sometimes weird internal politics) is that the fate point economy is quite unbalanced. I've received fate cards that cost 5 points and only give you a feat you can add to one unit. That feat can be destroyed in combat with bad RNG. Compare that to, say, receiving ten robotic walkers with 1 FP or kickstarting private industry with 2 FP.
I really don't see a situation where I'd pay that many FP to boost one unit in a way where I could lose the investment immediately.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 09, 2020, 08:37:33 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on June 10, 2020, 01:07:19 am
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 10, 2020, 01:48:39 am
So how does the militia reinforcement actually work? I've had new cities build new militia units on their own. But my original city has these lame duck units that don't get reinforced. For example, I have a division of motorized infantry that lost their trucks and MGs, leaving 100 rifle militia. The division doesn't seem to get any replacements. I was under the impression militia units would reinforce on their own, including replacing lost sub-units inside the divisions. I'm wondering if this is working as intended or if there is a bug or if I'm doing something wrong.
Click the militancy button (the fist) at the bottom of the zone the militia originates from, and you'll get details of its resources including how much reserves they have left to work with. The manual notes that if different zones within an SHQ share a culture, however, then they'll share reinforcements with each other.
Generally speaking, raising a standing military lowers militancy (just in the zone originated from? not sure on that) which means that eventually they'll run very low on volunteers and equipment. Roughly page 167 of the illustrated manual has a bit of detail on that. For example, my capitol once had high militancy and a militia over 12,000 strong, but now their militancy is rock-bottom and they have only a pittance of reserves and reserves. One part I'm unsure about is whether going over the max manpower level means that they won't field any replacements until they go back under it, as opposed to just not raising any new formations.
Various pro-militia stratagems (e.g. pumping them with cash) can help raise the rating, along with various events. Or possibly getting your militia destroyed?
There's also logistics limitations, of course, as militia do seem to use your own network.
Post by: Majestic7 on June 10, 2020, 02:19:20 am
Post by: ( Tchey ) on June 10, 2020, 05:45:24 am
I know this forum is filled with genius, so maybe someone has managed to run the game on a PC Linux via WINE or something ?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and wisdom.
Post by: Knave on June 10, 2020, 08:11:05 am
After this update it should auto-detect new stable branch updates.
Post by: E. Albright on June 10, 2020, 11:53:11 am
Post by: Knave on June 10, 2020, 12:15:01 pm
Just to make sure I didn't miss something - no naval units/logistics whatsoever, right?
I've heard that naval/air units would be on the table in the future if the game manages to sell well, but none currently :(
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on June 10, 2020, 12:32:00 pm
EDIT: Also for anyone struggling a bit, Mountain valleys are your best friend... my current mountain world run is going sooo much better due to actually having some time and space.
Post by: E. Albright on June 10, 2020, 12:37:49 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Edit: this new setup still makes me want waterborne logistics, but it's not as hopeless as that last one, where my thin line clinging to the coast constantly got cut.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 10, 2020, 02:15:11 pm
Post by: E. Albright on June 10, 2020, 02:28:01 pm
(Unrelated to the water, etc. it also had 3.3bi population before the fall; hence how many huge city ruins it has...)
If you want to have a look, here's the pre-game save: https://gofile.io/d/aDuHL4
Siwas (or whatever that's called) and Medusa both also have no problem having seas, but there's no proper oceans, presumably due to the lack of naval stuff. I'd say 15% water is the most I've seen (I've seen mountains as high as 36%, for comparison)...
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 10, 2020, 02:35:49 pm
Post by: Knave on June 10, 2020, 03:08:41 pm
where do logistic come from? do they come from the capital or the nearest city?
There are a few inventories:
Quote
5.11.4.1. zone Inventory Production from Assets goes directly to this inventory. Excess Items will be sent to the SHQ of the Zone. The Zone will take consumption costs for the next turn into account and will keep some Items in reserve. Missing Items will be requested from the SHQ of the Zone.
5.11.4.2. unit Inventory Each Unit has its own Item reserves (Ammo, Fuel, Food, etc..) and most turns they’ll request fresh supplies from their SHQ.
5.11.4.3. shq Inventory Each SHQ has its own inventory. It is used to send Items to Zones and Units that are requesting them. Furthermore, it will pick-up excess items from Zones. And last but not least it will send Replacement Troops to Units that are missing Troops (or pickup excess Troops).
Logistics are sent through truck/rail stations AP, and units request assets/supplies from their SHQ, so I believe (Logistics is complicated, so I could be wrong) they will flow out from where your SHQ is found.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on June 10, 2020, 03:16:33 pm
Total Production (actual supplies) -> Logistics Nodes (I.E. Truck Stations, Rail Stations) (generates logistics points) -> Road/Rail network (defines range and distribution of logistics) -> operational logistics (range from roadway in which a unit can resupply itself)
EDIT: theres also supply bases but im not sure exactly how they work. Vaguely, they extend the range of certain areas of your logistics network.
EDIT: Also, railways carry a ton of logistics points along their paths but have to be unloaded at railheads or stations for those points to flow onto the roads and into the field. Mostly.
EDIT: ALSO, the way I understand it is that all your production is divided up by your SHQs... so if you only have one you'll be having all your resources flow outwards from a single point... but you can have more I believe, though im not sure how resources get divided between them.
3000 EDITs later: AAAALLLLLSSSSOOOOO, according to the manual a logistics network is required to feed your workers and can be used to transfer units and resources between theaters (presumably governed by separate SHQs)
Post by: E. Albright on June 10, 2020, 03:54:21 pm
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 10, 2020, 04:06:31 pm
Kinda disappointing I can't get a Seth planet like that, but maybe in the future the creator will allow more planet customization like he did with Ceberus
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 10, 2020, 04:22:25 pm
(Reminds me of when I tried to come up with rules for a Dwarf Fortress game for playing cards. Ended up with 10 pages of wargaming lingo for what was supposed to be a fun, casual party game.)
Here's me trying to organise what I've just read in my head, maybe somebody will find it useful.
Truck or rail stations provide transport ('logistic') capacity that is spread over applicable roads/rail up to a distance beyond which it diminishes if not picked up by the range of another truck/rail station or extended (once only?) by a supply base.
This transport capacity is used to send excess items from all zones (cities) to their assigned SHQ. No capacity used here if SHQ is in the only city.
SHQ sends items where needed, be it units or cities, using the same transport capacity.
Units can pick up the last leg of supplies from nearby roads/rail, less efficiently the farther (in terms of movement cost) they are. Food is always supplied at 100% efficiency, up to the maximum range.
Rural buildings need at least 100 logistic capacity per highest building level present on hex to send output to their cities. I think it just has to be there, and is not being used up?
EDIT: Also, railways carry a ton of logistics points along their paths but have to be unloaded at railheads or stations for those points to flow onto the roads and into the field. Mostly.I haven't yet built it, but the manual clearly states the supplies can be offloaded from any railway hex? Dead-end (no railhead or station closing the track) railways have just vastly reduced capacity.
So I tried a long time and realized Seth can't get life. I hope in the future there is more customization to the non-earthlike planets. The only planet that has most customization is Ceberus, which despite being a harsh world with giant seas of magma can generate plants AND "complex" life with actual skeletal body structures.Have you tried unclassified? AFAIK it's a 'anything goes' option.
Kinda disappointing I can't get a Seth planet like that, but maybe in the future the creator will allow more planet customization like he did with Ceberus
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 10, 2020, 04:25:29 pm
Yeah, logistics, how do they work anyway? Getting through the manual was a slog. I would not call any of it fairly easy to make sense of.
(Reminds me of when I tried to come up with rules for a Dwarf Fortress game for playing cards. Ended up with 10 pages of wargaming lingo for what was supposed to be a fun, casual party game.)
Here's me trying to organise what I've just read in my head, maybe somebody will find it useful.
Truck or rail stations provide transport ('logistic') capacity that is spread over applicable roads/rail up to a distance beyond which it diminishes if not picked up by the range of another truck/rail station or extended (once only?) by a supply base.
This transport capacity is used to send excess items from all zones (cities) to their assigned SHQ. No capacity used here if SHQ is in the only city.
SHQ sends items where needed, be it units or cities, using the same transport capacity.
Units can pick up the last leg of supplies from nearby roads/rail, less efficiently the farther (in terms of movement cost) they are. Food is always supplied at 100% efficiency, up to the maximum range.
Rural buildings need at least 100 logistic capacity per highest building level present on hex to send output to their cities. I think it just has to be there, and is not being used up?EDIT: Also, railways carry a ton of logistics points along their paths but have to be unloaded at railheads or stations for those points to flow onto the roads and into the field. Mostly.I haven't yet built it, but the manual clearly states the supplies can be offloaded from any railway hex? Dead-end (no railhead or station closing the track) railways have just vastly reduced capacity.So I tried a long time and realized Seth can't get life. I hope in the future there is more customization to the non-earthlike planets. The only planet that has most customization is Ceberus, which despite being a harsh world with giant seas of magma can generate plants AND "complex" life with actual skeletal body structures.Have you tried unclassified? AFAIK it's a 'anything goes' option.
Kinda disappointing I can't get a Seth planet like that, but maybe in the future the creator will allow more planet customization like he did with Ceberus
Arrakis is a desert planet not unclassified planet :P
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 10, 2020, 04:42:07 pm
Arrakis is a desert planet not unclassified planet :PMaybe so, but a Seth planet is not just a desert planet. It specifically says a Seth planet has 'not a single drop of liquid water' on its surface, and can only host non-water-based life. Arrakis had quite a bit of water collected by the fremen and imported, and at least some of its life was water based. If the fremen can collect water with wind traps that means there is at least some moisture in the air. There were also dew farmers collecting the dew precipitating out of the air onto plants and other surfaces in the morning. By itself that means there is probably some little rainfall somewhere on the planet even disregarding the pseudo magical rain that Paul caused. This means Arrakis wouldn't neatly fall into any of the categories. Probably the closest would be a very dry Siwa/Medusa but unclassified would be easier to get similar conditions I think.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on June 10, 2020, 05:01:40 pm
Also, man I suck at prospecting. I'm like 40 turns in and I ran out of scavenging w/o ever setting eyes on a metal deposit.
Post by: Majestic7 on June 10, 2020, 05:16:53 pm
As a result, I never seem to have enough industrial capacity to build mechanized infantry corps, for example.I wonder if I should be saving IP and not building roads, but then I can't expand because of logistics...and if I don't expand, the enemies do. Annoying problem.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 10, 2020, 05:25:29 pm
Also, man I suck at prospecting. I'm like 40 turns in and I ran out of scavenging w/o ever setting eyes on a metal deposit.Could be there just aren't any metals in your territory. It doesn't magically create them, iirc deposits are seeded in the geology phase and you have to find them.
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 10, 2020, 05:34:55 pm
My luck with the RNG in this game in generating planets is really really bad lol. No idea how anyone was able to generate Seth life and one person even had giant worms in his world. I guess some people have super good luck. I still don't believe anyone got worms on Seth, I think its a lie because never once has that happened in 14 hours in my game of continual regenerating over and over and over and over.
I give up unknown though, that planet type is worse than any of the ones I've tried. Literally 95% of the worlds are low gravity or/and super young worlds.
I wish there was a bit less RNG in planet generation, because I ALWAYS have the worst luck with RNG in games. If I had a 100 sided dice (in real life in some game my friend brought over), and all I had to do was roll a one. I'd literally roll a zero...not just once but multiple times because my friends felt bad for me of how bad my RNG luck is so kept letting me retry until we all gave up. I hate RNG ever since then.
its just annoying because I see someone post on the forums "oh yeah got a seth world with worms". here I am rolling nothing but junk for so many hours lol
Post by: Shooer on June 10, 2020, 05:42:15 pm
Also the planet is fuel poor, only getting any from scavenging(no dinos to be gooified). If I want to roll over these plains then we're going to have to go with ethanol fueled tanks.
You can get a hint on planetary wealth by how much mining gets set up during the colonization step. I think age can have an effect.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on June 10, 2020, 05:50:25 pm
So, when starting a game, my production priorities are metal - industry - food - water (if it is not readily available). When expanding, I take care to build roads and truck depots. Plus I build stuff like barracks and universities whenever the population level can support it.
As a result, I never seem to have enough industrial capacity to build mechanized infantry corps, for example.I wonder if I should be saving IP and not building roads, but then I can't expand because of logistics...and if I don't expand, the enemies do. Annoying problem.
This is where mountainous worlds level things out a bit, you can expand into separate valleys at your own pace!
Post by: E. Albright on June 10, 2020, 06:05:45 pm
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 10, 2020, 06:16:37 pm
In any case. I'm pretty sure at this stage that I'll have to wait to play when planet generation is more customizable.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on June 10, 2020, 06:26:08 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
EDIT: Also I have 3 zones here so... idk if that's overkill or what, not really sure what the best zone strategy is.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 10, 2020, 06:33:10 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on June 10, 2020, 06:35:46 pm
Anyone else is swimming in political points? The game makes it out like its supposed to be a scarce resource, but there doesn't seem to be much to spend it on.
Political Points seems to be the one thing I have in excess tbh
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 10, 2020, 07:10:18 pm
Logistics!
I think that all sounds more or less right? I find that the visualization tools - particularly the 'current points', 'preview points', and whatever the '6' key is that colors the landscape based on military logistics access -- are generally sufficient. Combine that with the general mantra that if you're having logistics problems, the answer is usually to build another truck station at about the point where your logistics starts dropping. Haven't had much use for supply bases.
The more complex bit about it is that you want to generally build roads sparingly - by default, at every fork in the road the logistics network will evenly split is distribution. So having a bunch of short forks can be very bad for logistics. There's a traffic light function to manually fiddle with those, but easier just to be mindful of road usage.
Edit: also worth noting that the total logistics value of your SHQ is quite important. In practice, this means you either ought to nationalize the truck station on your starting city at some point, and/or build a rail hub there. The private trucking station is not terribly great.
On planets, the defaults do seem a tad restrictive so I err towards unclassified and lots of rerolls. As you all have probably guessed, the initial star type + distance + tilt and all that have a pretty big effect on the range of the subsequent steps, so if you're looking for life akin to as we know it, it's good to aim for a goldilocks planet.
On Political Points, I generally have a decent surplus as well. There are some expensive and useful items (e.g. prospecting push) that I try to use sparingly, though.
Post by: E. Albright on June 10, 2020, 07:32:49 pm
Re: PP, I've had one of my many abortive starts where PP was scarce - all the rest have been comfortable or abundant.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on June 10, 2020, 09:02:14 pm
Post by: E. Albright on June 10, 2020, 09:22:19 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on June 11, 2020, 01:17:17 am
This is where mountainous worlds level things out a bit, you can expand into separate valleys at your own pace!
Extolling the virtues of mountains is a such dwarven thing to do. :D All we lack is underground cities and alcohol as a strategic resource.
On political points, they are generated by the Supreme Council using your Bureaucracy resource. Basically, if you expand into too many councils while not building bureaucracies to generate more resources for them, you will end up running out of political power. Since the source material will be split among more councils, which in turn refine it into research, political power and so forth. I think the palace in your capital might generate PP too, though I'm not certain about that.
Post by: George_Chickens on June 11, 2020, 04:48:14 am
Post by: Karlito on June 11, 2020, 08:38:02 am
Anyone else is swimming in political points? The game makes it out like its supposed to be a scarce resource, but there doesn't seem to be much to spend it on.
Political Points production is something you have a high degree of control over, but yeah, I often find myself with a healthy surplus. Throttle down the Supreme Command council budget and spend more on research.
Post by: Yoink on June 11, 2020, 09:03:09 am
Not sure exactly when I'll try it out, it would obviously be best to set aside enough time to
Post by: E. Albright on June 11, 2020, 10:31:37 am
(The above suggests that anyone looking for desert planets with life should probably similarly aim for almost-goldilocks.)
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 11, 2020, 02:41:09 pm
Fooled around with Cerebus planets last night. If you can get an otherwise-goldilocks one of those with an age of 3-4bi (which appears to be the upper limit on them), they're a good source of water-peroxide and sulferic acid lifeforms as opposed to water-based ones. Don't expect much colonization, though - the best I saw was 69mi, and that was on a large Cerebus.
(The above suggests that anyone looking for desert planets with life should probably similarly aim for almost-goldilocks.)
Cerebus is actually really easy to get life. Its one reason was getting frustrated with Seth yesterday, but I think its actually a balance issue in the generation. I don't see how Cerebus can have life easier than Seth. My last cerebus game had seas of magma and rivers of magma everywhere, but supported as much life as giant lizard-like things with "complex lifeforms with skeleton body structure" and the planet looked like a jungle lol.
Cerebus is actually the best non-earthlike planet (medusa/siwa) to generate alien life and has the most dynamic planet generation. It has by far the most variety besides the two earth-like ones. One time it even had meadows of flowers that generated on the world.
Post by: Xardalas on June 11, 2020, 04:06:50 pm
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 11, 2020, 04:14:21 pm
Also be aware that if they take cities/settlements, they purge all humans. And no diplomacy, so no chance of trying for peace.
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 11, 2020, 04:43:45 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 11, 2020, 04:59:42 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 11, 2020, 05:21:11 pm
My rule of thumb is 2 hexes. Maybe I read that somewhere in the tutorial bits, but it seems to work.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on June 11, 2020, 05:44:00 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 11, 2020, 07:03:23 pm
So just start recruiting armies outta your butt if you're getting swarmed. The MG brigade is perfect for this task: They're highly effective on defense, so even the greens will slaughter droves of enemies.
Also, most minors have a live-and-let live philosophy. I originally though Raiders were evil and I needed to go to war with them. I was wrong: In fact I've never had problems with Raiders. They always try their best to become my best-est buddies. Makes sense when you think about it: Raiders survive by extracting resources from those weaker than themselves, and are usually weaker than the player by the time that diplomacy starts. So by their own cultural norms, they should be subservient to the player. They basically assume that the only reason you don't just take everything they have, which would be perfectly proper by their code of conduct, is that you have more important things to do and thus allow them to rule in your name.
Protip: Fuck slavers. You can't afford to keep them happy by constantly buying slaves, and every time you do, they get stronger by using your credits to build up their army. So if you get a slaver demand, say "NO", then prepare to fight their swarms. It'll only be worse later...
Post by: Shooer on June 11, 2020, 07:32:37 pm
yknow I never thought I'd say this but the early game pacing is actually too fast lol, if in an even remotely open area you get SWARMED, the AI just pulls armies outta its butt.Last 3 games I've been on middle sized maps that generated low population during colonization and post apoc. Talking less than 3 mil across the planet. Very large zones, very large non-aligned zones. Lots of empty space to expand and explore.
I usually have 2-3 neighbors right away, and any non-friendly farmer can be handled one at a time after waiting to get the first machine-gun armed battalion army out. Back up the troops with a few independent recon buggy battalions to scout/flank (fuel permitting) and 1-2 independent motorized arty (metal/ammunition permitting) to reduce enemy readiness.
Current game I went with a Regiment sized independent arty unit and it was to much. 180 guns RUINED the religious fanatic's city. Really wanted to take all of it intact, but most buildings survived with over 97% damage after the troops were sent in. Felt bad watching that light industry melt in the initial barrage, but our total population went up 50% with the capture of that zone. Time to betray the next farmer.
Once I secure my immediate threats and get the economy going I then focus on expanding the army. Currently wished I had more pop and I could have the manpower to run a bio-fuel-refinery III, so my tank and APC army will have to be smaller than planned.
Oh well, archives gave me advanced gauss small arms and 50MT nuclear missiles. The gauss is great for now, will be awhile before I can deploy the nukes. Just ignore the thousands we are making selling food and then buying to stockpile radioactives.
Post by: Vivalas on June 11, 2020, 08:49:52 pm
Slow and steady expansion from a huge lake on a water-restricted world, so I made hella cash just selling water to traders. The units, organizations, and logistics are really immersive, and all the little feats too you can add to the units adds character and flavor to them that I start to remember them by.
PP was very abundant early on but once I started needing more leaders for expansion (governors) and generals and diplomacy strategems for convincing the majors not to gank me, it started draining really fast.
Like that you can make bad things purposely happen to your empire for fate points. Kinda sad to hear that the more advanced archive strategms are being removed. Right now I'm sitting on a mobile chemical launcher unit that I really want to buy, and don't think I would have gotten it in the newer versions.
And raiders are indeed pretty chill. I've had more trouble with nomads actually who seem to be everywhere that has good resources. Nothing my motorized and mechanized rifle brigades can't handle :)
I actually befriended a raider early on without realizing it, and balanced the sovreignty of my country with keeping good relations of them, and I actually really like the diplomatic game in SE. Got a client state eventually out of that raider minor. Have two majors on my border now, one is apparently theological dudes who I can't convince to not be hostile to me no matter how much relation I give them, which I assume only delays their attack, and someone to my north with the BLACKMAIL mood who tried to blackmail me and failed... and those two are at war with each other so right now I'm just stockpiling and getting armies built on both borders so that I can swoop in once they're both exhausted from their war and run down their forces...
As for minors, they seem pretty weak once you get past initial early game, as long as you avoid the AI sentinel ones. Generally I would avoid invading nomads though unless they have good resources in their lands, since they don't seem to have large cities, or any cities at all really. I had a protracted war with a nomad faction early on that didn't get me much other than a vast expanse of land and a new border with a major, and my second war with a farming minor ended almost instantly once I capped their capital in the first turn because it was the first part of their nation I explored, and got a whole city that was almost the size of my capital.
I do like the way fog of war works, in that you can't really see the definite borders of nations you encounter, since the game just assumes they extend out infinitely from you until you explore them. Placing spies in nations you fight really helps clear up their fog of war and find their cities.
Post by: Karlito on June 11, 2020, 10:15:51 pm
yknow I never thought I'd say this but the early game pacing is actually too fast lol, if in an even remotely open area you get SWARMED, the AI just pulls armies outta its butt.
I've been playing on slow speed, and the pacing feels real good.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 12, 2020, 12:25:36 pm
Speaking of which, anyone managed to piece together what makes what kind of farming possible? I want to eat alien food, but there's always a something...
If only there was an indicator that yes/no you will/won't be able to do open farming on this planet. Or at least if the manual and the game used consistent labelling for various conditions, and kept those all in one place with unambiguous descriptors. (e.g. is 'reduced' value nutrition level 1 or 2? do you need at least shrubs to farm local life? when is a hex too arid?)
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on June 12, 2020, 12:38:02 pm
ALSO, can someone verify or refute this: open air farms next to water sources use that water instead of what you mine?
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 12, 2020, 12:43:01 pm
I believe it has to do with the atmospheric farming suitability in world gen, you won't be able to grow food outside if its toxic.Would that it were so simple.
Post by: Culise on June 12, 2020, 02:18:47 pm
Page 114: 4.3.11 Production modifiers. Temperature and rainfall of the tile are seasonal and will affect open-air farming: cold/hot and arid tiles cannot be farmed regardless of average planetary characteristics. Atmospheric conditions and biohazards also play a role, but these are not elaborated on here.
Page 152-153: 5.2.1 Planet Stats These break down as follows:
- Biological Hazard Level (BHL): Caused by dangerous or inimical alien life. Seems to be general to all Terran organisms from plants to humans based on the description, but it does not state a direct impact on agriculture even at BHL 4.
- Terrestrial Atmospheric Agricultural Toxicity Level (TAATL): Caused by toxic gasses (list unspecified, but I have seen oxygen partial pressure levels that should be toxic to humans not being counted against human hazard levels, so I imagine similar caveats apply here for agriculture). Anything above 0 will reduce growth. A level 4 (Incompatible) will kill Terran plants outright.
- Alien Nutritional Toxicity Level (ANTL): Caused by alien life. A rating of 0 (Excellent) will allow you to consume alien life. Higher ratings will reduce nutritional value of alien life. The manual indicates that level 4 here (Toxic or Incompatible) will also kill Terran plants outright, but this may be either an error (see BHL) or pre-release information, because...
Page 196: 5.5.2 Open Farming Rules. This is basically all of the above in a single place, with separate modifiers for Terran and Xeno crops. BHL 4 or TAATL 4 will eliminate open-air harvests, which matches the descriptions from above. Terran crops cannot be grown below 0C or above 60C, and will have reduced yields below 10C or above 35C. Interestingly, this does not include ANTL in its tables for Terran crops, which is rather logical. I'm inclined to take this as the primary source, however, pending any observations to the contrary.
You can also verify your planet's overall agricultural potential once you've finished generating your world and have started your game. Open REPorts, select Help, and check the Planetary Statistics Overview that appears as the first window: the very last entry is the recommended farming method for this planet overall. This won't include tile-specific conditions like rain or temperature and it is a trifle late for actually generating a world to spec, but it can be nice to verify. Also, as indicated earlier in the thread, the colonization phase of planet generation includes atmospheric terraforming. If your world isn't completely inimical to Terran plant life, initial colonization will typically see the establishment of Terran plants and an increase in atmospheric free oxygen, which builds on itself over a long colonization phase to reduce the TAATL hazard rating as low as 0. This obviously won't help with BHL, but it does make verifying your atmosphere in the Colonization phase (either in that phase itself or on the final screen before confirming your planet) worthwhile.
Water collection is also in this section (5.5.3), so I'll add it in as well:
Manual indicates that farms will use Rain*2 for the current round directly, where Rain is the average rainfall in mm/year. All remaining requirements are taken from Zone Inventory. However, if the zone touches any source of water, it will also harvest part of that water for free: 500-3000 for a single river bonus based on size of the largest river, plus additional bonuses for (presumed-saline) seas (2000), (presumed-freshwater) lakes (5000), and rainfall (Rain*4). Anything further requires explicit collection and/or purification equipment. I assume seas and lakes are different types of water tiles: for obvious reasons, they don't appear as often as open tiles on Boreas, Seth, or Cerberus class worlds.
Post by: Vivalas on June 12, 2020, 03:23:30 pm
Just fought through (and lost) my first major campaign and playthrough, and I have to say I'm really impressed by both the strategic AI and the feel of war in this game.
Turns out he was a juggernaut who, despite also being at war with the other major I bordered, was able to send a pretty sizeable infantry force at me. I was able to hold off his main force on my border, and sent a mechanized unit and a whole mg infantry brigade through a mountain pass to open another front, and then watched as the other guy slowly pushed his front in.
Granted I played waayyy too offensively for the amount I was out-gunned and out-teched, and when he brought in a whole light armor brigade against me my damaged and overextended lines melted against the onslaught. I was playing too way too fast and wasn't really stopping to think, and despite already having AT I didn't realize until too late in the war (when I brought everyone back to the capital and turtled and entrenched) that the formations with the AT were on the other pages of the raise formo dialogue. Even still I held out pretty damn good, and it turned into a nasty war of attrition as I started fighting him in every defensible spot I could. My casualties soared from a steady 1k (from my earlier war with the nomads and a few skirmishes with marauders) into the 70k range, and soon I was burning all my PP on "All for the front!" cards to convince my populace not to revolt from the absolutely staggering casualties. That and managing the logistic situation and shuffling lorries around to move troops to the front, really feels almost like a sort of Great War sim once you get into total war and mobilize your entire economy, and I was loving it, even after having my ass handed to me by the AI who kept breaking through my weaker lines and encircling me.
There's something great about cranking up recruitment to max, and playing recruitment push cards to just spam out brigade after brigade of infantry to hold back the armored onslaught of the techogermans who were invading me. I played pretty sloppy, but even still I can tell I put a huge hurt on his economy and the attrition was dragging him out too thin to hold off the other major who was slowly advancing through his territory. This, at least, does seem almost flawed from a strategic standpoint. He lost a ton of ground to his other enemy just to destroy me, which I suppose somewhat makes sense, but if I had played better and actually realized I could build anti-tank and instead of trying to attack, just held the line and fortified like crazy, I definitely could have held him off long enough that the other guy would have started taking his cities (although, at that point, I would still be screwed because the other guy also hated me and now would be twice as powerful as me). Definitely gonna go back to that save once I have more time in the game and experience with large wars, since I loved the atmosphere of that game and the culture I had built in my regime. Starting a new playthrough now, because I understand the game a lot more now. Oh, yeah, that's the other thing. I don't know if there's actually a losing screen, because the game crashed after he captured my capital, but I assume the rest is obvious.
The other thing I noticed is that starting new zones can grow your economy extremely fast, because of the influx of migration it causes that lowers your pop in other cities and attracts more free folk. That and it seems to also gather free folk at the same speed other zones do. Abusing this probably wouldn't end well, but it was noticable that the small zone I had anticpated to found over a cluster of ruins to scavenge, quickly soared in population from mass migration because of the high worker salaries I have and the number of empty worker jobs there. I would definitely say be careful with worker salaries in new zones, especially if they're higher than normal private income, because the zone grew way faster than I could provide food for it and eventually became a constantly unrest-ridden slum that I just couldn't manage to bring back to normal, what with everything else that was going on. But this kind of behavior is also pretty cool in a game.
I would say the game really does feel almost like a planet-based Distant Worlds, what with how the private economy works, since they trade with you, and your traders, which trade with other empires. The in game commodity market doesn't make resources from thin air, anything you buy with credits is imported from other nations with a surplus, and anything you export goes to other nations with a defecit, and if you try to sell too much eventually the market just gets clogged with very low price resources that nobody needs and they stop buying from you. Very neat.
To those daunted by the manual, I would say just to jump in. I skimmed the manual, read the quickstart, and followed the in-game advice prompts and mostly did alright. Granted I love these sorts of games and can pick up games quickly, but I think experience is the best way to get a feel for the systems. I just kinda referred back to it when I had a question about a mechanic I couldn't figure out.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on June 12, 2020, 03:37:17 pm
Jesus, is this obscure. Kinda reminds me of Iron Seed, what with all that trying to figure out what means what and what works how.
same feeling. I really want to get into it and yet at the same time with all the stress I have in my life I can´t really afford to get into crazy micromanagement
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 12, 2020, 03:39:25 pm
Spoiler: Also, on populace levels (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vivalas on June 12, 2020, 03:59:40 pm
For instance, my capital zone was booming. Middle civ level, high QOL, 100 happiness. My other zones... were barbaric. Emergency food to sustain the population, no private industry, very little private income to allow the private industies to grow.. etc.
I think there needs to be a sort of "investor" mechanic or such where private economy can move from richer zones to poorer zones. I don't know where I would suggest this to, but it's something I feel the game very strongly needs. It would make sense for the private economy of my capital to invest in the massive empty markets of my newer and empty zones with no QOL buildings or really anything at all, but it was really up to me to build all of that stuff. The micro in this game is pretty chill... until you try to build a new zone, since it takes so long for the private economy there to grow. That and the ability to sell state assets to the private economy, to get credits but also to bolster the private economy and denationalize things, for instance, if you had to during a war to support the war effort.
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 12, 2020, 04:11:53 pm
You can (through speaking to the zone governor about options) use your own credits to stimulate the private economy, at least. And there are some pretty potent stratagems on the private asset side - in addition to the 'this private asset is now built' cards, there are ones that just pump up to a couple thousand credits into the zone's private economy (this does not cost you money, just PP).
When I take a new zone I usually give it a per-turn stimulus for a while, at least if I can afford it.
Post by: Majestic7 on June 12, 2020, 04:25:03 pm
Post by: Vivalas on June 12, 2020, 04:29:04 pm
Being able to privatize just like you can nationalize would be an interesting option. And yeah, I agree that different zones' economies should be able to interact more than they do - while more alive than most 4x games, they do still feel kind of in service to / dependent on the nation to share between zones. (Insert political commentary here, har har.) At least people migrate over pretty quick and (after the initial tech hump) there are public QOL buildings to make. If you're having trouble getting migrants over, you can always hire up some colonists and plop them into the new zone.
You can (through speaking to the zone governor about options) use your own credits to stimulate the private economy, at least. And there are some pretty potent stratagems on the private asset side - in addition to the 'this private asset is now built' cards, there are ones that just pump up to a couple thousand credits into the zone's private economy (this does not cost you money, just PP).
When I take a new zone I usually give it a per-turn stimulus for a while, at least if I can afford it.
I've never gotten those cards, but I did do the investing, it's more just that I wish the wealthy entrepreneurs in my capital would go to the wild frontier, where they can presumably.. make even more money.
Post by: Karlito on June 12, 2020, 04:55:01 pm
Ah, that reminds me of another flaw I think the game has, is how I think there should be more ways to influence or bolster the private economy.
Call the governor. There's a slider called "public budget" which takes money out of your pile and dumps it straight into the zone economy.
ALSO, can someone verify or refute this: open air farms next to water sources use that water instead of what you mine?Zones will produce water outside of mining if they have rivers, lakes, oceans, or rain water to harvest.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 12, 2020, 06:46:21 pm
Post by: Shooer on June 12, 2020, 07:06:54 pm
Large Siwa, goal is a high pop world. Cool temperature and old age.
Geology leaves no water and nearly no rainfall in the north hemisphere. It's a barren waste.
The south ends up being a flat plains of rough shrubbery (no trees evolve after 4600 years) cut by a few small mountain ranges.
The south plains are also stalked by 14m Bitetrapods.
New plan: Jurassic world survivors. If we end up in the dead north we will have time to prep for the coming monsters, in the south I hope the food is worth being hunted.
Colonization ended at a population of only 5.2 mil. Only lost 3.4 mil in the collapse, over 80% of the survivors are hunters. 1% farmers.
Final cherry on top: nuclear war, so much nuclear war. Of all the worlds I've played they never suffered full civil war. Let alone one that lead to nuclear missile exchanges.
So now more than half of the green belt and dead belt is irradiated.
Nuclear Jurassic Park World
Post by: Knave on June 12, 2020, 08:11:33 pm
Here's another question that the manual didn't bother to provide an answer to: with ease of mining, is low level harder or easier than high level?
I believe the lower levels are harder to reach as I've seen my asst levels fall over time.
Quote
Nuclear Jurassic Park World
That sounds really dope, but I would hate to face off against those in combat! My first planet had 11m tall tyrannid things and they would just eat up nothing short of an army :P
Post by: Majestic7 on June 13, 2020, 03:04:30 am
I'd like to see more victory options too, such as building a quantum transreceiver thingy to summon the Shadow on the planet or building a warp ship to recontact the rest of the galaxy. Then other players could nuke your building site before you are finished, just because they are dicks like that.
Post by: Taricus on June 13, 2020, 05:47:05 am
Post by: Knave on June 13, 2020, 11:06:04 am
Just picked this up, but I'm curious; how on earth are you meant to get a non-toxic atmosphere?
Depends on the planet type and rolling. I believe some will always have a toxic atmosphere.
a planet's size also affects it, because if the gravity is low it won't have enough pull to keep an atmosphere. Larger planets will have higher gravity.
Gen yourself a siwa class and roll a few times on the step that talks about the atmosphere and vegetation.
Post by: EuchreJack on June 13, 2020, 01:46:17 pm
I wish there were different presets for the world conflict, so it could be more man vs nature than factions versus factions, if you lived on a planet of monsters. That would make an interesting co-op between human players. If we get naval stuff, just imagine playing on a water world with huge Lovecraftian sea monsters that can eat entire installations.
I'd like to see more victory options too, such as building a quantum transreceiver thingy to summon the Shadow on the planet or building a warp ship to recontact the rest of the galaxy. Then other players could nuke your building site before you are finished, just because they are dicks like that.
Largest size is also important, plus generating a small colonization population. You can also see how many zones were colonized and compare to total zones that was given in an earlier step of planet generation. It's all about just rerolling for each stage until you get what you want. Go Hydra if you want more monsters, otherwise you're more likely to be fighting Free Folk Marauders. Cerberus also seems to produce rock monsters. Hopefully, the planet generation will someday allow more fixing of settings so its less reroll based.
Frankly, most worlds my people have been trapped on are so horrible that just building a warp ship and leaving would be truer victory than conquering the hellscape. Most generated worlds aren't worth fighting over from a terran survival standpoint, except for the fact you're trapped there and can't leave.
Post by: E. Albright on June 13, 2020, 02:28:46 pm
Also, is anyone having trouble updating from 1.02 to 1.03 from the launcher?
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 13, 2020, 02:37:41 pm
https://i.imgur.com/hlJVqIi.jpg
Thats insane. And its pretty much a perfect Siwa too, though alien biology farming is no good at all but not a big deal for that since outside farming is perfect.
Post by: E. Albright on June 13, 2020, 02:44:01 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 13, 2020, 02:53:54 pm
Highest pop world I've seen
https://i.imgur.com/hlJVqIi.jpg
Thats insane. And its pretty much a perfect Siwa too, though alien biology farming is no good at all but not a big deal for that since outside farming is perfect.
Wow, and they only inhabit 22 zones. My 20 million worlds inhabit similar numbers. We're talking Megalopoli here.
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 13, 2020, 02:54:42 pm
Wow. Is it pretty much solid city?
Sadly no, that was what I was kinda aiming for though. Where I started its pretty empty. But the planet is one of the bigger ones. There'll however certainly be somewhere or multiple locations with tons and tons of ruins to explore.
(edit: Well this is a big ruin. Just discovered it and probably a lot more of it to discover. But already its one of the biggest ruins I've seen.
https://i.imgur.com/GzaghkW.png
Also got dinosaurs roaming around, 3 meters high so not biggest I've seen but lots of independents and pretty big independent armies.
(edit 2:
Even bigger
https://i.imgur.com/7yUNn46.png
This is gonna be an awesome game as it continues on. Never had a world with so many people and such a big metropolis in ruins.
Post by: sunrakhan on June 13, 2020, 03:41:09 pm
Post by: E. Albright on June 13, 2020, 04:23:30 pm
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 13, 2020, 04:29:56 pm
Hmm... do you think you could post the "last planet generated" save for that? I think I might be interested in flubbing about a bit on it, even if it means I'm that much more unlikely to ever get past the early game any time soon...
Sure might as well, I posted it on the official forums too for shadow empires. Keep in mind, sadly didn't realize you can't customize planet options after generating a planet. I kinda like playing on Epic speed, but for those who rather have faster time it sadly can't be changed. It isn't really a seed like I thought it would be, but it generates a save after planet is already generated.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KOGx8WcVPHQ2aeX1KEhDkTgTwfPR22gE/view?usp=sharing
Just move to save folder wherever game is installed
Also keep in mind its quite intense. Lots of rebels/independents and animals roaming around.
Interestingly. The independents actually don't seem to fight the animals but combine armies together. There is an independent army toward the east in my game which also has this lizard thing in the army stack.
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 13, 2020, 05:27:43 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on June 13, 2020, 07:15:57 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 14, 2020, 09:46:44 am
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KOGx8WcVPHQ2aeX1KEhDkTgTwfPR22gE/view?usp=sharingDo you remember what the difficulty and speed settings are on this one?
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 14, 2020, 01:28:52 pm
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KOGx8WcVPHQ2aeX1KEhDkTgTwfPR22gE/view?usp=sharingDo you remember what the difficulty and speed settings are on this one?
Epic/beginner.
If I was to do it over I'd have done slower/normal speed, but didn't realize couldnt re-do it since dont think too many like playing on epic or maybe there is.
Beginner is just cause I'm a noob :P Its still a super hard game. The AI seems rather good or maybe its cause I suck lol. I lost my first game of the metropolis planet because couldnt defend my supply lines. So as I was trying to lay siege to a nearby city, animals kept blocking the supply route. Its actually a pretty hard map that got generated.
Post by: EuchreJack on June 14, 2020, 03:23:29 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 14, 2020, 03:33:15 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on June 14, 2020, 05:33:17 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 14, 2020, 06:10:50 pm
Thanks for clarifying Il Palazzo, I wasn't really clear on how I actually got them. Actually, I'm still a bit unclear on what everyone means when they say "artifacts".
Unrelated, this game is tough. From experience and reading this forum and the Shadow Empire forum on Matrix Game's site, I'd say that this is one of those games where Hard means Hard.
Post by: Vivalas on June 14, 2020, 06:49:45 pm
That world is just gonna be war between whoever controls the largest ruins and who builds the most tanks. I'm truely in awe. Also all the artifacts and archaelogical sites you can find, wow.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 14, 2020, 06:52:25 pm
Actually, I'm still a bit unclear on what everyone means when they say "artifacts".Artefacts are a category of stratagems. You find them by building recycling centres on hexes marked with little pyramids (i.e. a resource maker). I think you discover those by regular prospecting, (only?) on ruins.
I've never had the Archeological Push stratagem do anything, but it might be for finding those sites, specifically. There's at least one fate stratagem that gives you a few artefacts as well.
They're free to play, and if the few that I've had so far are representative, they seem to be fairly strong - but not overpowered - unit or leader buffs.
Post by: Shooer on June 14, 2020, 07:36:08 pm
Download (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1U7M4eT_FFVfVESrhG6a7-qgFzN8KfgAP/view?usp=sharing)
Spoiler: Preview Image (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Spoilers for anyone who wants to play the save, fun stuff for everyone else (click to show/hide)
I'm going to have to take another shot at this start. I went way to aggressive to early. Keeping the roads open from wildlife cutting off a newly conquered city while attacking another farmer was a little much. Was rolling out 50+ medium tanks a turn just to try and fight the animals. Emphasis on try.
Also download (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Yh-0Wg0m6wKHzZuf9nnswWCt7TpVALez/view?usp=sharing) for the Nuclear Jurassic Low Pop world. Warning; 1/3 of your starting territory is lightly irradiated, it's not enough to be bad, but your capitol is in the middle of it.
Post by: Majestic7 on June 15, 2020, 01:37:14 am
Edit: So I seem to be addicted to starting new games. Now a jungle planet with hostile alien life and lots of ruins. I got almost immediately artifact stash card and played it. Now my first independent motorized infantry brigade is equipped with a shield generator, a killer android and an energy lance weapon. You bet those are getting destroyed by the first lucky hit, but maybe they'll cut some aliens before it.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 15, 2020, 06:01:30 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 15, 2020, 11:33:40 am
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dcg-LQr0mowvB_ng0KjbI6VBSdCuu5cH/view?usp=sharing
A large Siwa, slightly on the warmer side. Cloud forests, with lots of surface water and rain. Perfect habitability for humans and all kinds of farming. 10m tall animals roaming the countryside.
16.5 billion initial population, 125 zones inhabited (should be most of them). ~5 million final pop.
Post by: E. Albright on June 15, 2020, 11:49:11 am
You can currently perform infinite artillery bombardments if there's a normal army that can attack the target. Initiate the attack with the non-artillery unit, and switch to ranged attack. All adjacent artillery units, regardless of their current AP, will be available to join. They will all perform a minimum of 1 artillery attack before reporting their AP are exhausted. As the initiating non-artillery unit obviously did not participate, they can now choose to launch another attack... and switch to ranged attack again... etc. In effect, as long as you're willing to slog through long barrages on a volley-by-volley basis, you can launch as many of these attacks as you have patience for.
Post by: Shooer on June 15, 2020, 01:01:37 pm
New personal challenge: What's the highest population Boreas world can I get. Medium size, will have to roll a perfect or near perfect atmo. So nothing hazardous, like ammonia. Then hope that during colonization the planet get's perfected.
Why am I doing this? I want a high pop world that I don't have to worry about 14m carnivore land squids and 8m top predator land octopi.
All else fails I'll get another shot at ethanol fueled tank army.
First Attempt: 72 mil pop, perfect to farm along the equator, no hazard for humans to walk the surface anywhere, except that over half the world is irradiated. Start is pretty good though. Good amount of ruins, little-no radiation, starting land is half green half rocky plains. Either go west into the radioactive grassy plains or east into the desert.
Second Attempt: Little warmer, but almost the exact same results. Right down to the radiation. Start is in the middle of a desert. Ok, so switching to try and just generate young Siwa.
If anyone wants either of the starts, just ask. I might go back to the first one.
Post by: Knave on June 15, 2020, 01:39:42 pm
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 15, 2020, 01:41:43 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 15, 2020, 01:46:24 pm
Some of those in the world I posted above have both attack and defence in the range of 150, and they already roll over everything one can field in the beginning without breaking a sweat.
Post by: Shooer on June 15, 2020, 01:56:53 pm
I'm thinking of looking into modding the archive stratagem card to be able to give you bigger leaps in tech again. I think it would be fair, with the new cost. Maybe increase it to 5. Right now paying 4 FP to unlock rocketry just isn't worth it. The archive card was great in the early game and still good in the late, now it's maybe ok early and great late. Rather make it great in the early game again.
Also want to see if I can mod it so majors start with a random advanced tech, Tier 3 or 4. Nothing end game. Want majors to feel like they have a reason to be, well, major. Other than being the only organizations trying to conquer the world.
Also also want to look into making new world types. Mainly I want to make a orbital/artificial habitat. Rings would be easy to represent, what with how the map already works. You can represent damage to the hab having an effect on the environment. Thinking like a habitat that lost atmo pressure and water because a section was holed in a fight during the collapse.
Post by: Majestic7 on June 15, 2020, 02:28:46 pm
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 15, 2020, 02:49:41 pm
Post by: Shooer on June 15, 2020, 03:42:18 pm
Also once you get recon 5 on a zone it reveals neighboring zones. Which means you don't have to wait until you border someone to start diplomacy.
And worlds with little rain will have chance for more pop during world gen.
Post by: Trolldefender99 on June 15, 2020, 03:53:41 pm
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 15, 2020, 04:00:13 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 15, 2020, 04:15:51 pm
On the other side of the spectrum, fielding a pure heavy tank army must be hilarious.
Post by: Majestic7 on June 15, 2020, 04:58:15 pm
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 15, 2020, 04:59:47 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on June 15, 2020, 05:08:38 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 15, 2020, 05:45:32 pm
Heavy Tanks were generally best used sitting in ambush or pushing forward when literally nothing else would do.
*Fuel is food, which is basically free because food is water (build more wind traps, syphon the sea, melt snow) and energy (solar power to infinity). Your mileage may vary...
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on June 15, 2020, 05:59:15 pm
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 15, 2020, 09:59:08 pm
And yeah, I have no shortage of fuel at all, I'm just marveling at the logistics headache that using them is. (Again, as you say is historically accurate.) I like it. Also need to make sure to have enough production, as despite being free/easy to obtain that's still quite a chunk of fuel consumed in a single action.
Post by: Majestic7 on June 16, 2020, 01:58:24 am
Post by: Vivalas on June 16, 2020, 02:45:31 am
Post by: Yoink on June 16, 2020, 02:46:52 am
Post by: EuchreJack on June 16, 2020, 03:21:00 am
Are these "heavy tanks" truly the highest class of tank? I recall reading in the manual about so-called "monitor tanks". One can only imagine.Well, they are on the unit tree, but I've never seen one, so I can't say for sure they exist.
Post by: Majestic7 on June 16, 2020, 04:36:56 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 16, 2020, 08:15:01 am
The GR Cataphracts you can sometimes find in settlements are monitor tanks, iirc.Are these "heavy tanks" truly the highest class of tank? I recall reading in the manual about so-called "monitor tanks". One can only imagine.Well, they are on the unit tree, but I've never seen one, so I can't say for sure they exist.
Post by: Yoink on June 16, 2020, 08:17:55 am
Trying to attack these unaligned enemies (who attack me every turn and whom I was able to attack once in the past) yet there is so sign of the red arrow or any option to attack. Do I have to wait until they all kill themselves attacking us, or what?
Who am I kidding, combat's the least of my worries. I don't know how to do anything. I can't even figure out how to appoint the officers I've supposedly be hiring - there doesn't seem to be a screen for that, or one for my economic council which I think I was supposed to be doing stuff with.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 16, 2020, 08:36:46 am
To attack you just need enough action points to enter the hex. You might not be able to, if the terrain is rough and you didn't start next to the target. Sometimes your AP might be low for other reasons, like poor readiness (the colour of the unit bar, or the number by the lightning icon) due to having lost a fight recently or having no supply (the colour of the little square box next to the unit bar).
This game does combat like a typical WWII-style wargame, so don't expect frontal attacks to do much damage apart from pushing enemy out of the hex. You kill troops by cutting off their retreat route (i.e. surrounding them with your controlled hexes), and individual fights are won the easiest against units with low readiness (so, again, after they've failed an attack, after you've bombarded them with artillery, or after you've cut off their supply - the last one doesn't work with independent units).
The decision to appoint anyone ever appears the next turn after you've created the position. So creating e.g. the economy council on turn one means you'll be prompted to pick a director on turn two. You need some unemployed appointees to do that, which you can hire by playing stratagems occasionally appearing in the 'nation' category. Sometimes your political parties will ask you to hire one of their members too.
The various councils do the stuff they're supposed to be doing automatically, by spending a proportion of bureaucratic points you generate mostly in your HQ building (initially) or bureaucratic offices. You can change the proportion used for various tasks the turn after you've created a council, or by talking to the director.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on June 16, 2020, 08:37:17 am
also all officer appointments are done via decision, usually the turn after you CREATE a new council or OHQ unit, or a turn after whenever you delay appointment. It's a bit unwieldy, but you can also fire officers from the management > leaders tab
EDIT: also Il Palazzo explained it all better lol.
EDIT: Also what council discovers OOBs? I'd like some artillery units finally!
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 16, 2020, 10:05:03 am
I've encountered at least one Monitor GR unit, so can confirm they exist. I think you only really get access to constructing them once you've got access to better engines and lighter armor, though, which would make sense.
And regarding basics: I think Il Palazzo covered it pretty well but a few extra bits: AP is always out of 100, and shown by the rotating arrow symbol under unit stats. See screenshot below, the pink/purple marking. Also make sure you're in one of the move modes (as opposed to just inspecting, etc.) - M for single unit movement, G to move a full stack at once. See red circle indicating I'm in move mode.
Spoiler: Hopefully this works? (click to show/hide)
(Link at https://imgur.com/a/BUxoG4R in case I got that in wrong; I've lately had trouble loading images here for some reason.)
I think the manual already mentions this, but be wary of attacking when at less than 100 AP (in other words, both moving and attacking within a single turn). A battle lasts 1 round for every 10 AP, meaning that a given unit needs to call off its attack early if it lacks the AP. Furthermore, most (all?) troop types have a penalty to their attack value for the first 2 rounds of combat to simulate approaching the defenders. Furthermore, moving decreases readiness which you'll want as high as possible before fighting (it regains naturally every turn).
Thus, the safe/methodical thing to do is approach the enemy in one turn, then attack in the next. Or at least have a decent fraction of your troops attacking fresh. If, e.g., you have a 50 AP unit and a 100 AP unit attacking, the 50 AP unit will pull out after round 5 but the other unit will keep attacking until round 10. So for flanking elements and the like it's less important (and less feasible) to attack with 100 AP.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 16, 2020, 10:56:08 am
Spoiler: imgur embedding (click to show/hide)
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 16, 2020, 11:58:06 am
Post by: E. Albright on June 16, 2020, 01:40:12 pm
I also second the "monsters need their own AI" statement. They have a better understanding of the importance of logistics than most military officers I've known.
If you're having a hard time getting a handle on the basics, the DasTactics tutorial series - it's like 12-15 videos with overviews followed by deep dives of how to do your first 10 turns or so - really does a good job explaining the basic mechanics. I've barely touched the manual so far and I'm at least merely incompetent! *smugly buffs knuckles on shirt*
Post by: Majestic7 on June 16, 2020, 02:40:19 pm
I had received two nukes from ruins and a horde of monsters threatened to overrun my supply lines while I'm fighting two friggin' slavers at the same time. I had a paltry garrison in reserve, but stack of three different dinos is just impossible to deal with infantry. So yeah. I suppose pieces of irradiated dinos will be raining down in the local area for the next week.
It is kind of funny my only way to deal with beasties is using artillery. I imagine a pack of hyenas chilling on a savannah and suddenly it starts raining 150mm artillery shells. Since that is the best way to keep the population under check.
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 16, 2020, 03:22:21 pm
But yes, less savanna and more endless WW1 hellscape. Filled with giant beasties, like the giant trench rat stories all being true and back for vengeance.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 16, 2020, 03:37:31 pm
Post by: Shooer on June 16, 2020, 05:48:00 pm
Right next to you is a peninsula with 2 farmers on it, you trap them in making them easy targets. North is a bunch of friendly farmers. West is Arachnids, but 40 turns in and I haven't seen one try and cross the 8 tile wide mountain.
Finlay made contact with a major around turn 34. Only border is a 1 tile wide land bridge. Also they were immediately friendly and started trade right away.
On the way to the major was a small series of ruins. 3 sitting on top of fuel deposits, and at least one has artifacts.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 16, 2020, 05:51:04 pm
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 16, 2020, 06:11:39 pm
27m tall trench rats, though.
dunno a 3m rat seems more scary, a human will barely register interest in a colossal creature while a 3m rat can decide to attack because it feels threatened and can fit in any place you might find shelter against a larger creature
Post by: sunrakhan on June 16, 2020, 06:28:12 pm
Can HQ stances be removed?
Yes, in the OHQ's Unit Admin screen.
I only know it because I asked and somebody else told me. Now my debt is paid off, and it is your turn to spread the knowledge.
Post by: EuchreJack on June 16, 2020, 07:12:59 pm
The GR Cataphracts you can sometimes find in settlements are monitor tanks, iirc.Are these "heavy tanks" truly the highest class of tank? I recall reading in the manual about so-called "monitor tanks". One can only imagine.Well, they are on the unit tree, but I've never seen one, so I can't say for sure they exist.
Research: The Monitor Tank requires the Extreme Vehicles tech, which is found in the Heavy Machinery Tech group, which is dependent on Machinery, Engineering, and Basic Tech Groups. You could sort of steer towards it specifically by always prioritizing techs in those groups over all other techs, maximizing research when one of those techs is available and maximizing discovery when the available options aren't one of the three in the next highest group in that sequence. Probably not worth it from a tactical standpoint, since they're basically competing with nukes.
EDIT: Anyone know how to review stratagems without actually having them available to play? I'm suspecting that the Covert Ops is basically useless against non-city minor regimes, but can't be sure unless I'm able to find out what all their stratagems actually DO. And they vary based upon whether the player regime has gone Autocratic, Meritocratic, or Democratic. So three very different options there, requiring three different and involved playthroughs just to answer what should be a fairly simple question. I've noticed the stratagems are pretty straightforward when you have the card info text that appears in-game under the stratagem, but the text on the stratagem itself can be downright misleading.
Post by: Vivalas on June 17, 2020, 02:23:00 am
Finally got what can be called a easy start. Start is right on the south edge, so have access to infinite water from the never melting snow. Warm world so farming is viable not far from the snow line. Perfect native life, no dangerous animals.
Right next to you is a peninsula with 2 farmers on it, you trap them in making them easy targets. North is a bunch of friendly farmers. West is Arachnids, but 40 turns in and I haven't seen one try and cross the 8 tile wide mountain.
Finlay made contact with a major around turn 34. Only border is a 1 tile wide land bridge. Also they were immediately friendly and started trade right away.
On the way to the major was a small series of ruins. 3 sitting on top of fuel deposits, and at least one has artifacts.
You found a peaceful major? Every major I've found have been either genocidal assholes or extortionists.
The GR Cataphracts you can sometimes find in settlements are monitor tanks, iirc.Are these "heavy tanks" truly the highest class of tank? I recall reading in the manual about so-called "monitor tanks". One can only imagine.Well, they are on the unit tree, but I've never seen one, so I can't say for sure they exist.
Research: The Monitor Tank requires the Extreme Vehicles tech, which is found in the Heavy Machinery Tech group, which is dependent on Machinery, Engineering, and Basic Tech Groups. You could sort of steer towards it specifically by always prioritizing techs in those groups over all other techs, maximizing research when one of those techs is available and maximizing discovery when the available options aren't one of the three in the next highest group in that sequence. Probably not worth it from a tactical standpoint, since they're basically competing with nukes.
EDIT: Anyone know how to review stratagems without actually having them available to play? I'm suspecting that the Covert Ops is basically useless against non-city minor regimes, but can't be sure unless I'm able to find out what all their stratagems actually DO. And they vary based upon whether the player regime has gone Autocratic, Meritocratic, or Democratic. So three very different options there, requiring three different and involved playthroughs just to answer what should be a fairly simple question. I've noticed the stratagems are pretty straightforward when you have the card info text that appears in-game under the stratagem, but the text on the stratagem itself can be downright misleading.
Nice, when I inevitably get overrun in my current game, my next milestone is a 20 billion pop ruin world where I rush monitor tanks and power them with hundreds of tiles of recyclers.
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 17, 2020, 09:45:04 am
but first: is there a proper way to exit? I've had to alt+f4 out of it and idk if that saved anything
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 17, 2020, 09:59:34 am
Post by: George_Chickens on June 17, 2020, 10:34:19 am
I found a 30% discount code and I've soo many questions.Where did you find it?
but first: is there a proper way to exit? I've had to alt+f4 out of it and idk if that saved anything
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 17, 2020, 11:13:46 am
I found a 30% discount code and I've soo many questions.Where did you find it?
but first: is there a proper way to exit? I've had to alt+f4 out of it and idk if that saved anything
I missed the official discount and I remember I got an email "you've been there 6 years here a small gift" and lo and behold it was a coupon, I lucked out.
looked like this, if you have an account maybe you have something floating around without even realizing like I had
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
edit: checking out I got mails from 4 and 5 years too. dunno what's inside or if the coupon are transferable, hit me up in pms if you feel adventurous and want to give it a chance. no guarantees!
Post by: Shooer on June 17, 2020, 11:16:11 am
You found a peaceful major? Every major I've found have been either genocidal assholes or extortionists.
All 3 flavors of Republic major can be friendly, only one will never ally. Only one of the Theocratic major type will never ally, friendliness of the three is variable. One of the Militarist can be friendly, can be. One other might not be overtly hostile. None of the Militarist will ally.
The Major I first met was a Syndic Republic, so friendly but no ally. I'm manipulating their politics to change their ruling party to be a possible ally. Once allied you can win cooperatively.
Edit: I'm afraid to see what kind of collateral damage my 360 heavy rocket launchers will do to this raider city. I've seen 180 of my rocket launchers kill so many raiders and their tanks with just a single volley, while they were fortified in mountains.
Edit Edit: Now I got a spaghetti nest of a territory map with that Republic major. I took the raiders capitol, while they were at war with the Republic. The raiders had nearly taken a whole zone and it's city. Now I have a ton of good salvage sites woven around their city. What a mess.
Post by: EuchreJack on June 17, 2020, 02:38:21 pm
You found a peaceful major? Every major I've found have been either genocidal assholes or extortionists.
All 3 flavors of Republic major can be friendly, only one will never ally. Only one of the Theocratic major type will never ally, friendliness of the three is variable. One of the Militarist can be friendly, can be. One other might not be overtly hostile. None of the Militarist will ally.
The Major I first met was a Syndic Republic, so friendly but no ally. I'm manipulating their politics to change their ruling party to be a possible ally. Once allied you can win cooperatively.
Edit: I'm afraid to see what kind of collateral damage my 360 heavy rocket launchers will do to this raider city. I've seen 180 of my rocket launchers kill so many raiders and their tanks with just a single volley, while they were fortified in mountains.
Edit Edit: Now I got a spaghetti nest of a territory map with that Republic major. I took the raiders capitol, while they were at war with the Republic. The raiders had nearly taken a whole zone and it's city. Now I have a ton of good salvage sites woven around their city. What a mess.
I'm reasonably sure that Majors are generally nice to you if you are stronger and are mean if you are significantly weaker. They tend to take a wait-and-see approach if you are on basically equal footing. They've usually been Friendly when I first encounter them early in the game, for example.
I also suspect that your country's politics in relation is also a significant factor. Shooer, what sort of regime do you have?
Post by: Shooer on June 17, 2020, 03:27:26 pm
Commerce
Mind
Leading faction is
Meritocracy
Enforcement
Mind
Pretty easy to keep mind factions happy "Hey, you know how we are progressing technologically? We DEMAND that you keep doing that."
Now at war with a militant major. They declared war when they took some of the disconnected spaghetti. Jokes on them, I have 950 light tanks, 360 heavy rockets and an amount of mixed infantry sitting bored after taking the raiders that can all be aimed at their heartland. Also a tech advantage with heavy combat armor and replacement tanks coming up with polymer armor.
Second main force of mine is getting ready to set a border with another militant major. 70k troops (more pop than I have in two zones), 250 medium tanks(polymer armor), and 50 conventional missile launchers. Building more launchers soon, plan is to just destroy any of their structures in range from the border if they attack. Total war.
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 17, 2020, 04:18:19 pm
I wish there was an easier way to assign special units to troops. Having to insert them one at a time into a new formation of 5 units is rather a pain.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 17, 2020, 04:33:44 pm
I wish there was an easier way to assign special units to troops. Having to insert them one at a time into a new formation of 5 units is rather a pain.What do you mean?
Post by: Shooer on June 17, 2020, 05:03:39 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 17, 2020, 05:10:04 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 17, 2020, 06:13:09 pm
Post by: Shooer on June 17, 2020, 06:48:37 pm
Just wondering how that got negotiated out. "You guys need to stop driving those junkers around, we can provide some tanks left over from production" "Bigger" "No, we have light ta" "Has to be biggest, mine has got to be biggest."
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 17, 2020, 08:04:14 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 18, 2020, 02:12:15 am
I'm not as sure about government type. They all seem to have some way of recruiting the talented people to run the councils. Until I know more, my preference will probably be to pick whatever government makes most of my starting leaders happy, since with this setup I'm not really listening to them on the other two.
Post by: Vivalas on June 18, 2020, 04:11:04 am
Then again that would mean they're 200x200 km bomb craters. I don't see why they would be lakes, but those are some massive craters. Then again, hundreds of millions died in apocalyptic nuclear exchange on every single planet apparently, and given the other ridiculous tech that the GR had, I guess those sized craters would make sense.
Post by: Ekaton on June 18, 2020, 04:13:59 am
Well, the priests usually don't cost PP, so I guess they have to cost something :P
They do, cults have some debuffs as well. Eternity movement, for example, might help your soldiers’ morale, but also lowers productivity. Shadow cult can make your soldiers more deadly, but also has a tendency to kill followers of other cults.
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 18, 2020, 08:43:09 am
Eternity lowers private asset productivity; Mystic lowers soldier recruitment; Shadow causes unrest with "disturbing rituals"; not sure about Apocrypha since I've only just encountered them. Haven't had any Church of Syndic in my towns yet, so not sure about them either. May well be more of them.
It does seem like certain cults (Shadow, Apocrypha, maybe others) can cause religious violence if there's significant other cult presence in a town. That can not only kill cult followers (populace) but even garrisoned soldiers. Also causes fear, which is a mixed bag - less unrest, but also less happiness.
It also looks like they may have bonuses if the favored cult or something? I started with Eternity and favor them, which leads to loyalty bonuses "from meditations" at cities with significant Eternity presence and loyalty issues. Edit edit: may just be a dominant thing? My recently-captured town with Apocrypha cult presence is now showing that they're causing additional free folk migration through proselytizing and conversion.
Then there's the priest bonuses, which are all pretty good. Eternity raises morale, Mystic keeps readiness up, Shadow prevents retreat, Apocrypha gives +100 attack on the offense and a 25% higher chance to kill on a hit (!).
Edit: And on the 200x200 craters, near the end of the manual there's a section on design compromises, which notes several issues with the large hex scale chosen (e.g. a battalion unit of ~1000 troops can't really secure a 200x200 hex).
Post by: sunrakhan on June 18, 2020, 10:50:13 am
Takes way to many clicks to assign priests to a newly created army.
A shortcut you might not know about: when a unit is selected and the first button (the unit counter in the second box from the left) has been clicked on, you can see the HQ it is under. If you click the Strat button, you can bring up the Stratagems view and attach a priest to this specific unit from there.
The tooltip (« Play a Stratagem on this Commander ») is somewhat misleading. This Strat button is mainly useful to activate a Posture on the whole formation when clicked on from the HQ counter itself, but can also be used to attach priests when clicked on from a fighting unit.
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 18, 2020, 11:31:01 am
Spoiler: Spoilers for a random event (click to show/hide)
Post by: Shooer on June 18, 2020, 11:49:07 am
Post by: EuchreJack on June 18, 2020, 12:29:34 pm
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on June 18, 2020, 12:31:09 pm
At difficulty 18 that AI wanted to teach who ever came by how to make nukes.
Shadow Empire VR but the AI is Gandhi
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 18, 2020, 12:32:14 pm
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 18, 2020, 01:18:49 pm
Post by: E. Albright on June 18, 2020, 01:51:26 pm
[Difficulty 63 with a listed bonus of 60 to the roll. Roll of 65 got me Laser Guns. I'll take it. ^^]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 18, 2020, 02:07:29 pm
Post by: Shooer on June 18, 2020, 03:38:09 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 18, 2020, 03:46:23 pm
You know you can keep talking to the AI every turn? (but it gets harder each time)
What happens if I fail the roll?
Would I be correct in assuming that its a decision triggered by calling the zone governor and paying PP, or do I have to do something else?
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 18, 2020, 03:55:41 pm
You know you can keep talking to the AI every turn? (but it gets harder each time)
What happens if I fail the roll?
When I failed, at least, the AI got angry with me and told me to go away. Purely coincidentally, a few turns later a small group of hostile AI sentinels popped up nearby the city.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 18, 2020, 05:28:55 pm
Some other events have similar repeatable mechanics. I think it was the union leader and the old militia general?
When you set up a game you can set the number of players. Multi is by PBE(Play by Email) only from what I can tell.Right. So it's an EoFS style PBEM. The turns don't take all that long though, and there seems to be more of them per game than in EoFS.
I'm trying to figure out how would a multiplayer match be best organised. It looks to me that just sending emails to the next person would take too long - at least with more than 2 players or on the tiniest of maps.
Post by: Vivalas on June 18, 2020, 06:14:13 pm
Yep, either this is definitely GhandiOS, or the GR had it coming.
Post by: EuchreJack on June 18, 2020, 07:06:06 pm
Yeah, you call the guvnor and pay 3 PP, iirc. The two times I failed the roll I also got 10 sentinels pop up in the zone. I don't know if other outcomes are possible.
Some other events have similar repeatable mechanics. I think it was the union leader and the old militia general?When you set up a game you can set the number of players. Multi is by PBE(Play by Email) only from what I can tell.Right. So it's an EoFS style PBEM. The turns don't take all that long though, and there seems to be more of them per game than in EoFS.
I'm trying to figure out how would a multiplayer match be best organised. It looks to me that just sending emails to the next person would take too long - at least with more than 2 players or on the tiniest of maps.
I suspect if the players set up a weekend with a schedule, they could crank through the first 20 turns or so, then it would probably slow down to 1 turn apiece during the week, picking up to 2-4 turns during the weekend. A moon should be playable to completion. The game seems to process one player's turns one-at-a-time, so I don't think it can go any quicker than that.
Post by: Karlito on June 18, 2020, 08:55:51 pm
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 18, 2020, 09:03:43 pm
Some other events have similar repeatable mechanics. I think it was the union leader and the old militia general?
Thus far I've encountered: AI bunker; sensei; mad scientist; union leader; retired general; murderous monster; and maybe one or two others I can't recall.
Post by: Vivalas on June 18, 2020, 09:15:54 pm
Yeah, you call the guvnor and pay 3 PP, iirc. The two times I failed the roll I also got 10 sentinels pop up in the zone. I don't know if other outcomes are possible.
Some other events have similar repeatable mechanics. I think it was the union leader and the old militia general?When you set up a game you can set the number of players. Multi is by PBE(Play by Email) only from what I can tell.Right. So it's an EoFS style PBEM. The turns don't take all that long though, and there seems to be more of them per game than in EoFS.
I'm trying to figure out how would a multiplayer match be best organised. It looks to me that just sending emails to the next person would take too long - at least with more than 2 players or on the tiniest of maps.
I suspect if the players set up a weekend with a schedule, they could crank through the first 20 turns or so, then it would probably slow down to 1 turn apiece during the week, picking up to 2-4 turns during the weekend. A moon should be playable to completion. The game seems to process one player's turns one-at-a-time, so I don't think it can go any quicker than that.
I'd definitely be down for this, if anyone else is interested
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 19, 2020, 09:20:02 am
Mostly to work out the schedule.
I'm thinking four players on the first small unclassified map we roll, but it's all open to discussion.
Post by: EuchreJack on June 19, 2020, 09:36:46 am
I may be able to devote a weekend to testing multiplayer out, but if it lasted beyond that then I'd probably drop out or pass the torch.
Post by: E. Albright on June 20, 2020, 01:37:15 am
Spoiler: Note: not lava (click to show/hide)
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 20, 2020, 04:08:00 am
Post by: E. Albright on June 20, 2020, 04:11:23 am
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 20, 2020, 08:44:24 am
Upkeep is soldier salary, which is set with other salaries (i.e., call your Secretary).
jesus I've taken up gaming as a hobby because I hate interacting with people and now this, simulated conference calls XD
Post by: Karlito on June 20, 2020, 11:03:49 am
Post by: E. Albright on June 20, 2020, 11:12:40 am
On a related-ish note, let me voice my irritation that if you have a nice full nutrition alien biomatter world with forests, etc. but no surface water/rainfall (i.e., non-water-based plants) you still can't build xeno agriculture b/c it's "too arid for farming". Grr...
Post by: EuchreJack on June 20, 2020, 06:01:28 pm
Even if it's not the least pleasant world I've generated, this has to be one of the most viscerally unsettling ones I've seen...Spoiler: Note: not lava (click to show/hide)
Did you finally find Alpha Centauri?
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 20, 2020, 06:25:04 pm
Post by: Shooer on June 20, 2020, 09:12:31 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: EuchreJack on June 20, 2020, 11:31:14 pm
Eh, bummer. Now that I'm starting to feel like I've got the game figured out, it seems to have lost much of its allure. Still, a good couple weeks of fun.
In that case, maybe you can comment on whether or not Arachnids are soft or hard targets, or to what degree that makes sense.
I was going to save this for multiplayer, but what is the "best" first light tank design? I was thinking a Small Engine, 20mm Cannon, 25mm Armour, hope the design roll doesn't go on the heavy side.
Are Recon Buggy rushes the end-all-be-all? With the first model design being to upgrade the Armour to 25mm, so they don't have to be replaced so often?
Note: For the test game that I ran in order to find out that "second level of armour" is 25mm, I rolled the City of Seattle in ruins with post-apocalyptic troops in Environmental Suits. I feel like somebody made this game before...
Post by: Vivalas on June 21, 2020, 01:47:50 am
e.g. if an RPG and a infantry with a rifle had the same hard attack damage, the RPG would have much higher chance of killing a tank, because it has a higher "caliber"
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 21, 2020, 12:20:49 pm
Are Recon Buggy rushes the end-all-be-all?
I don't really have a multiplayer mindset so I may well be missing something obvious, but while buggies are great on paper they do have some limitations in practice:
a) When it comes to operating outside friendly territory, logistics (of course).
b) Buggies don't really have effective options when it comes to OHQ usage. As far as I know there aren't any buggy-centric (or even buggy-at-all?) OHQ formations, which means at the most having your 2 integrated-independent detachments for every OHQ. But even then OHQ bonuses only apply in a relatively close distance to the commander, so it'd have to be a (likely expensive) mobile formation to begin with.
Why is OHQ so important? Not only can postures make a big difference, but the overall OHQ skills can yield multiple times the effective strength (e.g. +300%!) for units under them. This isn't something you'll notice against non-aligned forces and minors since they don't have commanders, but non-integrated independent groups do seem to falter against an OHQ formation with a decent commander.
At least for caliber, I've noticed the higher caliber guns weigh more, and use more ammo per firepower compared to lower caliber, but cost less per firepower. That and there's a massive exponential decrease to attack power when you're attacking with a caliber of weapon below that of what the armor you're attacking has.
e.g. if an RPG and a infantry with a rifle had the same hard attack damage, the RPG would have much higher chance of killing a tank, because it has a higher "caliber"
For some detail on this, see page 322 of the manual. Generic small arms count as 20mm, which means 25mm armor has further advantages than just the health numbers compared to minimal 5mm.
(Also note that combat armor counts as 40mm, meaning it gets a pretty major boost against small arms compared to padded armor.)
Post by: Yoink on June 21, 2020, 07:46:34 pm
I'm guessing you can build specific units/vehicles that are capable of mountain travel, but I'm having enough trouble figuring out how to produce anything, haha.
Oh well, I am learning, albeit slowly. Thanks to whoever recommend the Dastactics videos; at first I was like "uhhh, which videos? I don't wanna watch an LP" but then I found the tutorial, skipped a few videos about metagamey strategies and world generation, and am now onto episode five, Turn One Decisions.
Already I've learned how to show/hide units and use the strategic map. I've a long way to go, but maybe New Regalio won't fail quite as totally as expected.
Post by: A Thing on June 21, 2020, 08:17:56 pm
By the way, I saw it mentioned on the second page but I didn't see anything else, so I'll mention that this game is sort of based off of VR Designs (dev of this and AT:G) randomly generated WW2 game Advanced Tactics: Gold. Saw DasTactics mentioned and remembered his tutorials on that. Never got far in it, but it seemed really good. Check that out if that sounds cool, I think it's pretty moddable so it's not just WW2 stuff; I mean the combat engine is similar to this game after all.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 21, 2020, 08:23:11 pm
Post by: Sime on June 22, 2020, 01:45:42 pm
Wowww, I think I've worked out why I was having such issues with attacking the unaligned twerps near my home city. A lot of the terrain around here seems to be really mountainous (read: high mountains), which most of my rag-tag units can't even travel on, apparently. Perhaps only my ranged units and artillery were able to attack, though even that seems hit-and-miss. Not entirely sure what I'm supposed to do about this, since y'all were talking about encircling enemy forces and it turns out my start is mostly enclosed by these bloody high mountains. :-\
I'm guessing you can build specific units/vehicles that are capable of mountain travel, but I'm having enough trouble figuring out how to produce anything, haha.
Oh well, I am learning, albeit slowly. Thanks to whoever recommend the Dastactics videos; at first I was like "uhhh, which videos? I don't wanna watch an LP" but then I found the tutorial, skipped a few videos about metagamey strategies and world generation, and am now onto episode five, Turn One Decisions.
Already I've learned how to show/hide units and use the strategic map. I've a long way to go, but maybe New Regalio won't fail quite as totally as expected.
I get the impression that the learning curve is steep for non-wargamers who aren't used to the logistics and wargaming of slitherine titles.
Since I'm currently learning the three Gary Grigsby's war in the X games in parallel as a break from studying the Haskell programming language, I think i'll defer SE for a bit.
Post by: Wieniawa on June 22, 2020, 06:43:23 pm
Post by: E. Albright on June 22, 2020, 09:29:08 pm
Post by: A Thing on June 22, 2020, 09:49:22 pm
...on the one hand, my current game has been going pretty well despite me starting right near a hostile major theocracy. On the other hand, I'm really starting to get sick of how all the hostile wildlife on the planet seems to be gradually converging on my capital. On the third hand, I suppose this is my fault for choosing to play on a planet inhabited by 13m carnivorous shrimps...
Come join us on the Seth class we've got: rocks, sand, and no life of any sort. You just have to deal with the mass of slavers and raiders, since that is the only way people can survive on this awful planet it seems.
Has anyone else noticed that whenever a planet has no resources really in generation it becomes a service industries planet during colonization? Did the Galactic Republic really love having malls and IT companies on garbage rock planets or something? Was working retail and IT some sort of penal colony thing?
Post by: Yoink on June 22, 2020, 10:11:28 pm
Next to no rainfall, it's mostly desert and craggy mountains with snow and ice further south, and I seem to remember seeing something about residual toxicity making it near impossible to grow crops. Then again, I didn't exactly pick it, I just went with fully random.
Post by: Karlito on June 22, 2020, 10:18:01 pm
On the other hand, I'm really starting to get sick of how all the hostile wildlife on the planet seems to be gradually converging on my capital.
Blame The Shadow.
Post by: E. Albright on June 22, 2020, 10:49:15 pm
Post by: nautilu on June 23, 2020, 04:43:52 am
I started two hexes away from another major. Friendly minors north, south and east of me. Slavers on the other side of the major. Major was able to one hex snake his way into a minor and started a war there. I took advantage and attacked with everything I had at 1:1 odds. He had artillery. I was wiped out by 2 units of 500 men.
Tried a different approach and waited. The minor started winning the war and we both got it down to a single hex city but no matter how many we killed, they doubled their numbers. From 2 units to 107 many turns later. The odds kept going down for me all the way to 1:660.
My economy was booming but my happiness and morale were single digits because of all the death and danger nearby.
Its ridiculous. This is my first time fighting a major and I dont want to continue if they get endless buffs on regular diff.
Post by: Karlito on June 23, 2020, 08:58:19 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 23, 2020, 09:03:04 am
Surround the city. Then bring enough artillery to reliably lower entrenchment and readiness (if you don't care for collateral damage), and a dedicated assault unit to do the actual job (like an infantry corps with some aggressive stance or a better model). Take your time - breaking out of the siege is hard, since all the defender bonuses are on your side.
According to the manual the AI doesn't cheat on supply or production. It should still mean they can raise troops while supplies last. What they will do, unlike the minors, is improve their models (like you should remember to do). So what looks like 'just infantry' might have double the stats of your starting units.
Post by: Knave on June 23, 2020, 09:16:12 am
I often see the AI with upgraded models before me, wonder if that's just because they have all the councils unlocked, or if they place a higher precedence on the model design council when I'm usually opening economic and the basic military council first :-\
Post by: nautilu on June 23, 2020, 09:18:05 am
The major went from 2 units at home on turn 3 to 107 units by turn 14ish. All with just one city hex. They had arties and advanced soldiers.
It was a militia only start.
I dont know what to do. Restart and let it fight the minor battle while I deal with the slavers for more territory and time? The danger on my doorstep is wrecking havoc on my happiness.
How are we supposed to beat majors in a normal game? Cheese tactics or wait until we are as advanced as they quickly get?
Post by: nautilu on June 23, 2020, 09:19:05 am
Post by: George_Chickens on June 23, 2020, 09:23:15 am
I surrounded them on turn 1. By Turn 2 they are at war with the minor faction. I waited until turn 3 to where they only had 2 units at home and backup was far away. Completely surrounded they didnt even lose 1 man. So I tried a different tactic and waited. The minor surprisingly started winning the war and brough it to the majors doorstep. I surrounded 4 hexes of the city and the minor 2.I would normally immediately assume it was cheating, but I have had a start like this myself. I got sentinels, plasma troopers and all sorts of stuff from random events, and also had the recruitment manpower to shit out thousands upon thousands of troops.
The major went from 2 units at home on turn 3 to 107 units by turn 14ish. All with just one city hex. They had arties and advanced soldiers.
It was a militia only start.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 23, 2020, 09:25:40 am
Wonder if the AI starts with all councils unlocked, or if they have to open them like the player (on default mode that is).Page 346. They don't have councils at all. They spend BP on models, techs etc. directly.
I often see the AI with upgraded models before me, wonder if that's just because they have all the councils unlocked, or if they place a higher precedence on the model design council when I'm usually opening economic and the basic military council first :-\
Post by: Knave on June 23, 2020, 09:31:32 am
Wonder if the AI starts with all councils unlocked, or if they have to open them like the player (on default mode that is).Page 346. They don't have councils at all. They spend BP on models, techs etc. directly.
I often see the AI with upgraded models before me, wonder if that's just because they have all the councils unlocked, or if they place a higher precedence on the model design council when I'm usually opening economic and the basic military council first :-\
Ah right, thanks! I remember reading that now. I should have just re-read that section.
I guess it makes sense from a coding perspective, but can't help but think it would be more fair if it only mirrored available options from things you've unlocked. That way they grow more in step with your own abilities.
But I guess it's not meant to be fair! :D
Post by: nautilu on June 23, 2020, 09:34:21 am
The other amazing thing was that when the major did get a hold of some territory next to it, a town would appear and it would build a farm in 3 turns while fighting this two sided war.I surrounded them on turn 1. By Turn 2 they are at war with the minor faction. I waited until turn 3 to where they only had 2 units at home and backup was far away. Completely surrounded they didnt even lose 1 man. So I tried a different tactic and waited. The minor surprisingly started winning the war and brough it to the majors doorstep. I surrounded 4 hexes of the city and the minor 2.I would normally immediately assume it was cheating, but I have had a start like this myself. I got sentinels, plasma troopers and all sorts of stuff from random events, and also had the recruitment manpower to shit out thousands upon thousands of troops.
The major went from 2 units at home on turn 3 to 107 units by turn 14ish. All with just one city hex. They had arties and advanced soldiers.
It was a militia only start.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 23, 2020, 09:51:46 am
The other amazing thing was that when the major did get a hold of some territory next to it, a town would appear and it would build a farm in 3 turns while fighting this two sided war.That's expected, no? They need food to feed their troops. If you have the city surrounded, then it's a priority.
Post by: E. Albright on June 23, 2020, 10:16:39 am
Post by: EuchreJack on June 23, 2020, 02:43:06 pm
I surrounded them on turn 1. By Turn 2 they are at war with the minor faction. I waited until turn 3 to where they only had 2 units at home and backup was far away. Completely surrounded they didnt even lose 1 man. So I tried a different tactic and waited. The minor surprisingly started winning the war and brough it to the majors doorstep. I surrounded 4 hexes of the city and the minor 2.
The major went from 2 units at home on turn 3 to 107 units by turn 14ish. All with just one city hex. They had arties and advanced soldiers.
It was a militia only start.
I dont know what to do. Restart and let it fight the minor battle while I deal with the slavers for more territory and time? The danger on my doorstep is wrecking havoc on my happiness.
How are we supposed to beat majors in a normal game? Cheese tactics or wait until we are as advanced as they quickly get?
I don't really "get" the question here (and I'm not singling you out nautilu, this is a common complaint on the Matrix forum). Why does the major need to be destroyed? The player "beats" all the majors by having more population and controlled hexes than any of other majors. If a major is trapped to one city, and is bleeding their population on your defenses, then you've "beaten" them: They're certainly not going to be winning this game.
Also note that majors start on ruins, same as the player, which is the easiest terrain to defend. I'd suggest surrounding with MG infantry, load with defense stratagems, and moving on. Any luck taking their newly-built farm? Dunno if it spawned on a ruins, if not then it might be easier to take.
This also reminds me of another player that wanted to destroy The Corporation when playing a Commerce profile. It made sense on the surface: Commerce reduces happiness. Yet The Corporation also slowly corrupts all the leaders into liking Commerce, making good relations really easy with the leaders if they continue to exist, since they are being corrupted into liking the regime's profile. So The Corporation is actually a great thing for a Commerce Regime.
Post by: Knave on June 23, 2020, 04:14:12 pm
If you're just starting out you probably have the tools and the ability to push the AI back into his home city, but you often don't have the tech or the councils to actually improve your soldiers or even get artillery or new strats (unless you get lucky!) to finish them off Meanwhile they have enough resources to keep building up infantry and improve designs leading to a long drawn out slog.
Not sure what the best way to handle this would be really. On one hand if you've beaten an enemy down to their capital space to the point of a stalemate, is there really much point in drawing it out for the player? If I'm thinking of this from a 4x standpoint, they should be easier to conquer and have their resources added to yours.
But from a wargame perspective capitals are valuable resources and you don't want to make a meta built on rushing majors to become OP.
Maybe it would be better if starts were actively more spread out, that way all the majors have a bit more room to grow and tech up, and you feel less obligated to try and rush a war so you don't have a huge hostile power breathing down your neck?
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 23, 2020, 05:25:45 pm
Re: figuring out how odds work, doing some savescumming is rather useful for getting a feel for how odds correspond to outcomes. 1:1 something only to do if you're desperate or don't care at all about the units you're attacking with.
I think one of the various Youtube videos mentions this, but (perhaps in part thanks to situations with less than 400 intel) I sometimes find odds really misleading. That's on both ends of the spectrum, too. There are situations where the odds given to me look really really bad (well, like 1:1) but I can tell based on the troops on both sides, the relative situation, etc., that it's going to be an easy battle - and it generally is. Other times the odds look really easy, but I have a good feeling there are e.g. more troops there than current intel indicates.
And as to taking major cities, I probably wouldn't do it without a healthy balanced attacking force preluded by significant rocket/missile barrages (or at least artillery). While they don't cause many casualties on their own, they can do a decent number against entrenchment and really ruin readiness.
While a capital is only a single hex, if that hex is a ruins space then they can have food, metal, IP, etc. all on that one hex. Combine that with long-term unsustainable (but short-term okay?) recruitment levels, and one could hold out pretty well for a while.
Post by: a1s on June 23, 2020, 06:14:31 pm
What am I missing?
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 23, 2020, 06:37:29 pm
Post by: a1s on June 23, 2020, 06:45:21 pm
Spoiler: on the build screen (click to show/hide)
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 23, 2020, 07:04:27 pm
Try extending your existing supply lines by building a truck stop or a supply base somewhere along the road to the city, so that the city is in supply range. Turn on the 'Show Op. Log.' overlay in the map layers tab on the right to see which hexes are in supply.
Post by: sunrakhan on June 23, 2020, 08:33:53 pm
I suspect it's more of a case of wanting to build something there instantly after conquest, before waiting for the turn resolution in order to ensure your logistics can spread to that hex.
A screen capture with the Current Pts logistics map filter turned on would allow us to ascertain if that's indeed the case.
But by the time I'm posting this, a1s probably advanced at least a turn, and the issue is most certainly solved.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 23, 2020, 08:39:08 pm
Post by: E. Albright on June 23, 2020, 10:31:03 pm
I'm wondering if any of those include things like dino riders, though I haven't seen those even as enemies since my first game or three. I do wish there was a bit more by-planet uniqueness like that in the units you can put together...
Post by: EuchreJack on June 23, 2020, 11:15:04 pm
Post by: A Thing on June 23, 2020, 11:30:36 pm
Has anyone gotten any of the special local militias that the manual vaguely alludes to? It seems like any game where I conquer any meaningful amount of neighbors ends up being a game I'm next to nothing but generic farmers.
I'm wondering if any of those include things like dino riders, though I haven't seen those even as enemies since my first game or three. I do wish there was a bit more by-planet uniqueness like that in the units you can put together...
As in actual unique units? Not really, but I have fought 'slaver' infantry. They don't seem to be any different from normal rifle militia though, just a different unit icon and description. Might be something that's going to be added in patches maybe.
Post by: Vivalas on June 24, 2020, 02:23:58 am
Re: figuring out how odds work, doing some savescumming is rather useful for getting a feel for how odds correspond to outcomes. 1:1 something only to do if you're desperate or don't care at all about the units you're attacking with.
I think one of the various Youtube videos mentions this, but (perhaps in part thanks to situations with less than 400 intel) I sometimes find odds really misleading. That's on both ends of the spectrum, too. There are situations where the odds given to me look really really bad (well, like 1:1) but I can tell based on the troops on both sides, the relative situation, etc., that it's going to be an easy battle - and it generally is. Other times the odds look really easy, but I have a good feeling there are e.g. more troops there than current intel indicates.
And as to taking major cities, I probably wouldn't do it without a healthy balanced attacking force preluded by significant rocket/missile barrages (or at least artillery). While they don't cause many casualties on their own, they can do a decent number against entrenchment and really ruin readiness.
While a capital is only a single hex, if that hex is a ruins space then they can have food, metal, IP, etc. all on that one hex. Combine that with long-term unsustainable (but short-term okay?) recruitment levels, and one could hold out pretty well for a while.
This. Odds are very broken. Ive even seen the odds screen's troop counts be in direct conflict to the amount of troops declared by the strategic map.
The game's battle system is very nuanced and takes timr to get used to when is and isn't a good time to attack, but some general tips:
1.Infantry are generally better at defense than offense.
2. Armor excels at leading encirclements and punching through lines.
3. counterattacks are great, if you can support them (although I thought I saw a "counterattack" penalty once while attacking? dunno. but in general failed attacks can plummet enemy readiness and give you a better chance)
4. Multiple flanks not only increases attack power but also max stack size
5. People sitting still generally are heavily entrenched after a turn or two. Combine this with infantry tanking their readiness after long marches and being prepared to push before the enemy even gets to your lines is very important.
Some other things I forgot
Post by: nautilu on June 24, 2020, 07:12:20 am
I had a game yesterday where I made peace and inherited every minor except arachs and AI. So I got slavers, raiders and farmers. Its super annoying that minors dont need resources because my armies increased by 6 times but my food didnt. Desert worlds seam easiest. If you get the right neighbors you can win.
I played an earth world and was wrecked by farmers. I didnt know they would take half my territory and towns. Never happened before. Also, when the slavers got me down to a single hex, my economy was doing fine.
I wish the advanced tech start didnt give you bigger territory. Its hard to defend.
Post by: Shooer on June 24, 2020, 07:45:49 am
It's pretty fine at 200, good at 100. It's representing that you don't know what's there and have to guess. I'm wary of attacking below 100 recon, had 1 to many surprises.
Add to that with low recon you don't know their readiness or entrenchment. Those two have a HUGE factor in battle.
Had 30 Recon on a tile, said 1.2 to 1 chance, got it to 46, said 1.3, got it to 130 when the recon buggies drove by and changed to 12 to 1 since I now had an idea of what was there.
I've destroyed armies that out numbered mine by just shoving them onto the back foot with artillery and never relenting with the attacks for several turns. Eventually I could send in 50 light tanks and watch them run over hundreds of infantry and routing the remaining thousands. Cutting them off from supply also helped. Of course cutting supply doesn't help fight minors.
Also the odds aren't the rolls you are going to get, just a guess. The battle is still a bunch of dice rolls, and even at a 99/100 chance, that 1 can still be rolled.
Post by: nautilu on June 24, 2020, 12:16:46 pm
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 24, 2020, 01:00:39 pm
Taking a look at the recent set of beta patchnotes it looks like the dev might be making some significant changes to logistics. They're not final yet (and are currently in a fair amount of back-and-forth on the Matrix forums), but a combination of nerfing roads/trucks (a lot), trains (a fair bit), and causing degradation of points over the course of multiple branches from a 'root' line. The dev is also debating making road costs matter more (i.e. at all) for AI to reduce spaghetti roads in major AI territory.
Oh, and there's a tool to remove roads, which will definitely help in dealing with major AI territory once it's taken over.
A side/intended effect of these logistics changes are to cut down significantly on turn times as logistics calculations become less drawn out.
On the whole not sure how I feel about the proposed branch change, but otherwise I think it's a decent move.
Post by: nautilu on June 24, 2020, 04:07:47 pm
Post by: E. Albright on June 29, 2020, 10:47:12 am
Sidenote: finally got another world with raider cavalry, but the weird thing was that these biped riders were on a Limos-class world with (obviously) no native life...
Post by: Knave on June 29, 2020, 10:55:27 am
You can download the update by either clicking the Check for Update button on the launcher or downloading it from your My Page (https://www.matrixgames.com/member/downloads/shadow-empire)
Changes:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Should be working as intended again with this version. *Those Raider calvary must be non-nnative! Brought to the planet like the arachnids
Post by: Karlito on June 29, 2020, 11:52:32 am
EDIT: actually only seeing a minor decrease in throughput in the more distant cities.
Post by: E. Albright on June 30, 2020, 01:06:23 am
Post by: EuchreJack on June 30, 2020, 09:02:06 pm
Also, I've been watching a lot of Star Trek and Stargate SG-1 lately. Wow, they really lucked out, compared to the worlds usually generated on Shadow Empire. Basically take the number of worlds where the intrepid landing party had to wear environmental suits compared to the total and invert the percentage to get your Shadow Empire world percentage...
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 30, 2020, 09:57:03 pm
Post by: lemon10 on July 01, 2020, 03:42:40 am
Can somebody explain the logistics changes? While everyone complained about the old logistics system, at least I could reasonably understand it. I'm afraid these "changes" have broken that.To some extent it seems like the Shadow Empire people just care less about their new homes not being horrible.
Also, I've been watching a lot of Star Trek and Stargate SG-1 lately. Wow, they really lucked out, compared to the worlds usually generated on Shadow Empire. Basically take the number of worlds where the intrepid landing party had to wear environmental suits compared to the total and invert the percentage to get your Shadow Empire world percentage...
Like if they find a world with no significant useful natural resources, no native life AND a toxic atmosphere they just plop down cities and go "Whelp, guess we can turn this entire planet into a giant paperwork factory".
Whereas in star trek or star wars or (presumably) SG-1 they just uh... leave that barren hellscape alone and go colonize other places that have actual value?
Post by: Hanzoku on July 01, 2020, 04:03:08 am
Basically I was expecting more Mars/Titan barren worlds where technologically advanced survival is possible, and less Venus/Mercury with bonus murderous alien swarms.
Post by: Majestic7 on July 01, 2020, 06:25:37 am
Post by: E. Albright on July 01, 2020, 09:28:49 am
I'd add, though, that Liquid Energy seemed a bit nebulous in the fluff (though perhaps I've just forgotten what sort of phlebotinum it is), so perhaps all these vicious hellscapes formerly produced the junk before everyone forgot how to make it.
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 01, 2020, 09:33:44 am
Post by: EuchreJack on July 01, 2020, 10:12:35 am
There might be military or political reasons to colonize worlds that would be useless otherwise. Alternatively, maybe they were in the process of being terraformed or something. Still, it would be nice to get a reason for the colonization in the planet generator.
I think its more logistics reasons. The Warp Drive in the setting had a limited range: In order to colonize that new Siwa world, you have to set up one or more hubs on less desirable worlds to get there. If you're lucky, that new Cerberus world will have valuable minerals. Note in the lore that most of the effort in the Galactic Republic was focused on expanding outward and not so much on developing what they had. I'm actually surprised more worlds aren't essentially truck stops.
We're introducing some bias here - we get to pick what hellholes get generated, and TBH barren planets with little or no atmosphere aren't terribly interesting. In principle, I'd assume most of the Galactic Republic was Limos, etc. and the reason we see 3b people crammed into domes under sulfuric acid rain while 23m tetrapods rampage through the surrounding toxic jungle... is because we kept rolling new worlds until we got that abomination.
I'd add, though, that Liquid Energy seemed a bit nebulous in the fluff (though perhaps I've just forgotten what sort of phlebotinum it is), so perhaps all these vicious hellscapes formerly produced the junk before everyone forgot how to make it.
This does make me want to do a "planetary survey" of just randomly generating 100 worlds and cataloging them. Would that number be sufficient for statistical analysis?
Post by: Dostoevsky on July 01, 2020, 01:39:00 pm
Also, based on my experience the initial planet position/tilt/etc. (that first screen) has a really heavy weight on the subsequent range of outcomes, which makes sense but also might make a pile of random worlds more about that first page?
Would be worth raising the question on the official forums for those who have an account, though - the dev may respond?
Post by: EuchreJack on July 01, 2020, 03:41:10 pm
I have an account, but I'm not really sure of the question.
Post by: E. Albright on July 01, 2020, 06:44:14 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on July 01, 2020, 10:06:26 pm
I've reported two issues and the dev responded to both, but I haven't seen interactions from him WRT simple discussions/suggestions.
Yeah, he seems kinda busy to comment on lore. It's more likely to see a response in a couple months, although I don't know how mysterious everything is supposed to be. I sort of think that he doesn't want to answer any pointed questions about the inner workings, but that could be just me. He has been spending a lot of time putting out fires and filling out features.
Hence my hesitation on the right question: Too direct/accusatory might be avoided, whereas too vague/speculative might be ignored.
Post by: Dostoevsky on July 01, 2020, 11:38:42 pm
Honestly though it's not a critically important question, and as you say the dev has quite a lot on their hands already.
Post by: E. Albright on July 02, 2020, 01:00:38 am
Post by: Majestic7 on July 02, 2020, 01:44:47 am
Does the game already take enviromental factors in account when applying casualties? Like, if the atmosphere is totally toxic or vacuum, slighter injuries would likely kill people than in a friendly enviroment. Breaching your suit or vehicle might be straight deadly versus just scary.
Post by: nautilu on July 03, 2020, 07:47:13 am
Games end too soon for any interesting tactics to take place. You can barely supply a front line, nevermind an encirclement action.
Maybe the option of playing a broken down world where there are random supply depots and run down bases scattered across the map, to jumpstart wars.
Post by: EuchreJack on July 03, 2020, 11:22:59 am
Your ideas are pretty good, although I'd modify the idea of 'raider' troops to adopt the Offensive supplies feature of HOI4, in essence allow the player to build units that store more resources, so they can survive longer out-of-supply. There are leader skills that help with supply usage (mostly food).
I love the idea of random supply depots and run down bases on the map. It makes sense that these abandoned worlds would have warehouses full of trucks that just need to be dug out and fixed up. It's also a mistake that any minor faction with a city doesn't at least have a private transportation hub. I understand their logistics aren't modeled in-game, but they would at least need something to aid in their private trading with other factions, or hauling back loot if they're raiders.
Honestly, shouldn't free folk settlements also contribute to the logistics network? I mean, it should be easy to find a bunch of people willing to help load/unload the trucks (supply depot), and hire some traders to help ferry supplies (truck depot). Maybe like half of whatever the private versions would be, at least.
Post by: E. Albright on July 03, 2020, 01:10:45 pm
It's even worse if you annex/unify with a minor and inherit 20+ stacks of militia; suddenly all these units that had survived just fine on their own are out of supply and starving to death unless you extend your logistics network to them or create a new SHQ (and even with a new SHQ they'll probably starve).
Post by: nautilu on July 03, 2020, 02:58:13 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on July 03, 2020, 07:10:04 pm
Biological planets should have some scavenging value.
They do, there is a skill for that. But it's tied to the leader, so unless the SHQ commander has it, the militia won't benefit from it. Although, militia should be a little less strict on the starvation rules in general, as they would presumably be getting at least some supplies from Militia HQ and be more likely to be used to living on the land.
The issue with further logistics restrictions has more to do with how computationally expensive they are than a keen desire to do so. Still, it's really annoying that roadbuilds must precede every campaign - we had some vigorous debate on their forums about the problems that causes with a couple of decisions/events where you get units cut off from everything next to a village or asset who then starve to death when they'd previously been self-sufficient.
I actually like that logistics need to proceed the campaign, it reminds me of the expansion of the Roman Republic/Empire. They had to build roads before/during their campaigns, and set up their logistics. WWII had similar issues with keeping front-line units supplied with oil.
It's even worse if you annex/unify with a minor and inherit 20+ stacks of militia; suddenly all these units that had survived just fine on their own are out of supply and starving to death unless you extend your logistics network to them or create a new SHQ (and even with a new SHQ they'll probably starve).
Personally, this makes sense to me. You just killed off the logistics network that was supplying them: if you want to keep those FREE units, you now need to start supplying them. Might make more sense if we thought of them deserting instead of dying off. The problem is that the supply situation is immediate, not giving the player any breathing room to really fix it. At least one free turn of supply (I dunno, program new units in a newly conquered zone to not have to pay supply costs for one turn) would be a pretty decent idea.
Post by: E. Albright on July 03, 2020, 08:42:35 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on July 03, 2020, 10:07:06 pm
The thing is, these are peaceful diplomatic takeovers rather than hostile conquest, so you shouldn't have just killed off the logistics network, you should have taken it over. Their former ruler just became your new governor, after all, so it's not like it's a full-blown regime change; it's a re-alignment.
Sorry, I had thought it was via conquest. Either "militia takes care of its own supplies" and "get a few turns (5-6?) to fix this" would make sense.
As I'm recalling that militia are generally weaker than regular army, exempting them from supply might not be so horrible of an idea. They're not going to suddenly become able to unite the planet. They take care of everything other than logistics all on their own, so this wouldn't be too out of line with their current situation.
Post by: E. Albright on July 04, 2020, 12:43:39 am
Post by: EuchreJack on July 04, 2020, 03:50:45 pm
Post by: nautilu on July 05, 2020, 10:37:16 am
I hope the dev knows about similar games from the past. Im not subscribed to their forum, yet.
Post by: Majestic7 on July 07, 2020, 02:32:33 am
I wish the game had rivers and river/naval logistics. That is what even the ancient romans did, after all, even if naval forces would still be out. Water is great for transporting large amounts of supplies.
If we ever get naval and aerial forces, I hope the planet specs affect them. In dense enough atmosphere, say a desert planet with lots of sand in the air, maybe we will get ornithopters...
Post by: Dostoevsky on July 07, 2020, 08:59:03 am
Agree on the all the rest. While the dev is interested in bringing in additional features, in the near term I believe they're focusing on having a good Steam release. That means more accessibility and the like instead of new features, I think.
Post by: Karlito on July 07, 2020, 09:11:50 am
Post by: E. Albright on July 11, 2020, 12:15:52 pm
Quote
-Rare case, but still: Xeno- Farming with plants with non Water solvent will not require water to farm now.
-Also fixed Alien Plants ideal temperatures calculation if using a different solvent than water.
This feels noteworthy since it outright changes how some things functions on very different types of planets.
Also another thing I haven't had a chance to look at yet that seems interesting, albeit vague:
Quote
-Big one. Added History Classes to Planet Generation to allow players some variants to regular Planet Generation. Many options to explore here.
[Edit:
Spoiler: Ooooooooooooh...:D (click to show/hide)
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 11, 2020, 12:30:22 pm
Post by: E. Albright on July 11, 2020, 12:35:31 pm
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 11, 2020, 12:38:03 pm
Post by: Knave on July 11, 2020, 02:24:56 pm
Quote
And here's a link to the Tips & Tricks series by Dastactic. Very good for learning the game and a lot of the under-the-hood mechanics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BivVweJ5-iA&list=PLGB6RkFB7ZmPoXDAaR8FbM3xujwMsDgEv
This stuff was posted for version 1 of the game, but it shoulstill be mainly relevant for learning purposes!
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 13, 2020, 08:38:50 pm
Post by: E. Albright on July 13, 2020, 09:46:33 pm
Is your cult based on the 3 culture questions at the start? I tend to answer those pretty similarly every time, so it wouldn't surprise me if that was why I seem to get the same cults every time...
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 13, 2020, 10:01:51 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on July 14, 2020, 03:36:01 pm
argh, anything text based? I hate youtube guides
That was why I've never watched them either. The manual has a basic tutorial that should help getting started. If you want a new counsel, go to the leader screen and call your secretary (make sure you have some PP saved). I've flipped through their forums a bit, and this topic has a lot of info.
Post by: E. Albright on July 14, 2020, 05:06:19 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on July 14, 2020, 06:18:39 pm
Even if you don't like watching videos, watching DasTactic's "what to do on turn 1" is incredibly helpful for getting a general idea of how to muck about, figuring out what you don't know, etc.
Kinda douche that "I have to watch the video", as opposed to anyone actually giving the information in the video.
Does DasTactic say in the video "Don't tell anyone this super secret info, make them watch the video"?
Granted, I'm sure it is more of a "it is hard to summarize everything as well as he does", but I've still found it really annoying that everyone keeps saying that.
Post by: E. Albright on July 14, 2020, 08:26:31 pm
It's one thing to ask for specific answers to concise questions. It's quite another to ask "explain everything to me"... particularly when other people have already done that work.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 14, 2020, 09:22:21 pm
Post by: Dostoevsky on July 14, 2020, 11:43:03 pm
That said, I think one can get by without it. Just read the manual - ideally starting from section 3.3, or even 3.1 if you want to fiddle with planet gen, all the way through the end. Or just skim starting from section 4.1, and be ready to refer to the manual a lot. And get familiar with the '6' key (it shows operational logistics at a glance).
And then, as you play, keep referring to the manual a lot via text searches and the like. There's a heck of a lot of info in there, and hard to digest all at once, but repeated exposure will help.
Edit: I should add that the manual has a lot of helpful pictures as well. Arguably DasTactic's video showing some of the concepts in motion is a little better, but certainly eats up more time than looking at the manual.
Post by: E. Albright on July 15, 2020, 08:58:03 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on July 15, 2020, 09:59:46 pm
It should work fine overall, since vehicles are currently represented in units of 5 vehicles. 5 Tanks or 10 Astartes seems about right to me. And that system is the one that would make the most sense, comparing armor to weapon penetration. The unit feats system could be a good base for attachment of special units like Techmarines, Apothecaries, or Champions.
Post by: E. Albright on July 16, 2020, 12:28:07 am
Post by: Dostoevsky on July 16, 2020, 12:35:09 am
As to battle outcomes, I kind of wish all the meat wasn't hidden behind several layers of UI. Takes a while to get a sense of how to figure out what a particular unit died to, and can lead to 'hunt for the death' situations among the various turns and remembering which unit is which.
Post by: Ekaton on July 18, 2020, 05:25:19 am
Here's a slightly... odd... question. What does everyone think of the level of abstraction presented by the combat in the game? Would this level of abstraction feel "right" for e.g. a game along the lines of Chapter Master if the granularity was increased by an order of magnitude? I.e., rather than company-sized elements of 100 infantry, squad-sized elements of 10 infantry?
The game would definitely benefit from smaller units. Groups of 100 are used for both military and population changes, and it feels too abstract.
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 18, 2020, 10:49:10 pm
Post by: E. Albright on July 18, 2020, 11:27:37 pm
It would be nice if the icons reflected general shapes, and not just so we'd know for certain WTH a blather is - I feel a bit ripped off that my current game's 21-48-meter carnivorous dicephaloids, multi-squids, and unioctoposes look like grainy dinosaurs rather than the unimaginably horrific writhing masses of tentacles they should be.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on July 19, 2020, 12:37:56 am
Quote
Bladder: Old English blǣdre, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch blaar and German Blatter, also to blow1.
Quote
Blather:late Middle English (as a verb; originally Scots and northern English dialect): from Old Norse blathra ‘talk nonsense’, from blathr ‘nonsense’.
FATALITY!
Post by: E. Albright on July 19, 2020, 08:13:51 pm
Post by: E. Albright on July 20, 2020, 12:44:04 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 22, 2020, 02:30:12 am
e.g.:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I thought I could fix this by building additional truck stations on the hexes next to the city, but they're not sending any truck points towards the SHQ - only away from it (assuming that would be of any help). So e.g. the truck station south of the city sends all of its log pts southwards.
Anyone knows what's causing it or how to fix it?
I'm playing the latest beta patch, or the one before it, btw. Meaning, the pull point system is in (although I seem to remember the same thing happening in pre-pull versions as well).
Post by: Karlito on July 22, 2020, 08:49:52 am
Post by: E. Albright on July 22, 2020, 10:27:42 am
I like pull points in principle, and sometimes they seem to work well, but the current system is evolving, poorly documented, and frequently feels like a spilled plate of spaghetti. The fact that logistic point spread separate from pull points is being tweaked and overhauled simultaneously to pull point development makes it unfathomable at times.
Post by: Karlito on July 22, 2020, 11:59:55 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 22, 2020, 12:27:48 pm
The latest beta introduced a change which dramatically alters how log points work: when log points radiating from one source meet those from another source, both stop radiating. E.g. [log source]->10->9->8->7->...->1 meeting [log source]->1000->999->...->991 on a road would in theory mean half the road would have single-digit log points. So when you build a truck station right next to another truck station, half the points immediately die - and if you have a city truck station entirely surrounded by first-hex-on-the-road suburban truck stations, the city station will literally do nothing. I quite hopefully tried the outlying station method, too, and things worked better (admittedly still not well) after I axed the suburban stations again.This can't be right. Looking at the traffic log, the logistics points leave the city just fine, together with a plethora of those coming from further away. It's just those directly neighbouring stations that don't send their output towards the city.
Anyway, I still don't get what drains all those points between the city and the neighbouring hexes, while leaving them on the remainder of the road.
I've now built rail (the one on the pic is inactive), and it does the same thing. About 1000 pts is put on most of the railway, but all is drained by something (what??) right next to the city and only there.
Post by: E. Albright on July 22, 2020, 02:44:33 pm
This can't be right. Looking at the traffic log, the logistics points leave the city just fine, together with a plethora of those coming from further away. It's just those directly neighbouring stations that don't send their output towards the city.
Hmm. I'm slightly more awake than when I posted my prior comment, and thinking about how neighbor-stations worked it does seem like my prior explanation doesn't even explain what my own experience was. Is the "canceling out when it hits a runner" change killing the weaker spread, so log points from a subsidiary hex station won't go to the monster SHQ station hex, but the stronger log source will continue to push past the little one? This may require more experimenting, although I wish it didn't. It's getting messier and messier...
Post by: Dostoevsky on July 22, 2020, 02:51:23 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 22, 2020, 07:44:26 pm
FWIW I did update the game a couple times while it was already underway, so maybe newly built truck stations are using the new ruleset while the older ones aren't?This can't be right. Looking at the traffic log, the logistics points leave the city just fine, together with a plethora of those coming from further away. It's just those directly neighbouring stations that don't send their output towards the city.
Hmm. I'm slightly more awake than when I posted my prior comment, and thinking about how neighbor-stations worked it does seem like my prior explanation doesn't even explain what my own experience was. Is the "canceling out when it hits a runner" change killing the weaker spread, so log points from a subsidiary hex station won't go to the monster SHQ station hex, but the stronger log source will continue to push past the little one? This may require more experimenting, although I wish it didn't. It's getting messier and messier...
Post by: E. Albright on July 22, 2020, 10:05:41 pm
Post by: E. Albright on July 23, 2020, 11:56:49 am
Post by: EuchreJack on July 23, 2020, 03:37:38 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on July 23, 2020, 04:03:08 pm
Post by: E. Albright on July 23, 2020, 07:58:57 pm
Am I the only one that finds itstrangeHILARIOUS that in response to heavy player criticism of the hard Logistics system that was clearly laid out and explained, the game now has a Logistics system that is confusing, buggy, and still isn't easy?
In fairness, they're trying to make it easier (but also to cut down on processing times). So there's an effort (but there's simultaneously an effort that has some unclear tradeoffs with the other effort). Documentation REALLY needs worked on, though - it's totally obscure and vague now...
Post by: EuchreJack on July 24, 2020, 09:54:26 am
I have enjoyed the efforts to reduce processing time. Those turns in the early days were LONG.
Post by: Journier on July 26, 2020, 04:47:41 pm
Post by: Knave on August 04, 2020, 05:53:48 pm
1.05 is officially here: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4866337 (https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4866337)
CHANGES:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I've admittedly put this one to bed for a bit while they work on logistic changes and balance. How about everyone else? Time to jump back in?
Post by: EuchreJack on August 05, 2020, 07:44:04 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 06, 2020, 03:19:54 am
I've admittedly put this one to bed for a bit while they work on logistic changes and balance. How about everyone else? Time to jump back in?The new logistics system automates some aspects, but at the cost of being unsolvable. With the new system, logistic points are kinda-sorta redirected to where they're needed, so you don't have to meticulously place traffic signs everywhere and/or rebuild the road network to do its job.
But previously, by doing so you could have spent enough time on your network to make the LPs go exactly where you wanted them to. Now there's just too many moving parts with varying parameters as the pull points shift and change constantly.
The overall experience is more user-friendly out of the box, but can frustrate players looking to min-max strained logistics in later game stages.
Other changes are mostly cosmetic (maybe apart from more control over planet generation).
IMHO whether you want to play this version or not depends on how you felt about the old logistic system.
Post by: EuchreJack on September 16, 2020, 01:01:41 pm
This article discusses it in far more depth, and it is a bigger problem than I imagined (https://what-if.xkcd.com/30/)
For one thing, you can't fly in the traditional sense without an atmosphere. The closest thing to flight on an airless world would be rockets and orbital paths. I also hadn't realized that the thinner the atmosphere, the harder and less practical aviation becomes. Look at how long it took to get the terran plants worked out. Yeah, aircraft, rocket ships, and satellites would probably be more of an expansion project.
I still think the game needs naval craft, however. Many worlds have something liquid that blocks the way, and crossing it comes down to finding something that can survive the heat and/or corrosion. And frankly, if the planet is survivable by the people with their Environmental Suits, they've probably come a long way towards solving that problem, even if us primitive Terrans haven't quite figured it out yet.
Post by: Karlito on September 16, 2020, 07:46:17 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on September 17, 2020, 12:45:43 pm
Post by: E. Albright on September 17, 2020, 03:01:51 pm
Post by: LukeRM on September 17, 2020, 03:18:12 pm
Chemical combustion firearms work fine too - which is a pity, b/c it would actually give the gas-pressure firearms a niche instead of "they use a small amount less supply". If nothing else, including atmosphere in munitions so they could combust to fire should mean they need even more supply in that sort of atmosphere...
As far as I know, smokeless powder functions perfectly fine without atmosphere as it carries its own oxidizer.
The dev has stated that he would likely prioritize navies over air forces in future expansions or updates because it'd allow for many more interesting planet types and map designs. The main reasons all our planets are so dry compared to Earth is because lolnonavies. :D
Post by: E. Albright on September 17, 2020, 03:28:17 pm
IIRC, the biggest reason navies are getting prioritized is that there was a poll for additions and navies were top of the list.
Post by: EuchreJack on September 17, 2020, 05:43:20 pm
Actual disclaimer:
Quote
I hope that within a few weeks I can shift time to actually adding stuff to the game. And I would like to have some player input by that time. I am not going to do what the majority wants, but I do want to take it into account. I don’t want to spend my time on something only a small minority of players wants to see added :)https://www.vrdesigns.net/ (https://www.vrdesigns.net/)
So a bit of both perhaps?
Post by: A Thing on September 17, 2020, 06:50:23 pm
Post by: E. Albright on November 18, 2020, 09:35:45 pm
Post by: The_Explorer on November 18, 2020, 09:56:11 pm
Can you create a world like Arrakis? Or a civilization alpha centuari (the original, not the remake) style world?
Post by: E. Albright on November 18, 2020, 10:28:25 pm
[Edit: somehow I forgot they added start options to force alien life to exist on planets. So yeah, you can pretty easily Dune your own thing if you want.]
Post by: Vivalas on November 19, 2020, 01:54:26 pm
that sounds amazing. surprised it came before boats but still, amazing.
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 19, 2020, 02:11:01 pm
:o air forces beta?Not all planets have water but all planets have
that sounds amazing. surprised it came before boats but still, amazing.
Post by: Vivalas on November 19, 2020, 02:50:58 pm
:o air forces beta?Not all planets have water but all planets have
that sounds amazing. surprised it came before boats but still, amazing.airsome kind of atmospherespace above the ground in which to fly!
ha, yep. There's a huge ocean in my current (non air force) game that woulda been amazing had I been able to build a navy and control it. I think for air forces update (since they have ornithopters) I'm gonna do a dune style run. Naturally..
Post by: Knave on November 19, 2020, 03:16:09 pm
https://www.matrixgames.com/news/shadow-empire-will-be-released-on-steam-on-december-3rd (https://www.matrixgames.com/news/shadow-empire-will-be-released-on-steam-on-december-3rd)
Looking forward to jumping back in after taking a bit of a break to let logistics, roads, etc. solidify mechanically.
Post by: Majestic7 on November 19, 2020, 03:25:13 pm
Post by: The_Explorer on November 19, 2020, 03:26:38 pm
I assume we can switch our Matrix purchase to Steam? Makes upgrades easier to handle.
yeah, it'll come with a steam key. I bought the game and see an area in the game list where a steam key looks like it'll be available in the future. And I think it said they'll send a steam key with steam release as well
Post by: Vivalas on November 19, 2020, 05:33:37 pm
Just for roleplay anyways, I suppose, but making a strict Arrakis is hard.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 19, 2020, 05:46:42 pm
Anyone try the air forces beta patch yet? I've not had a chance but I'm happy to see it's described as taking atmosphere and gravity into account when determining what is viable and what isn't - it feels like a step in the right direction WRT the saminess that afflicts this so much more than it seems like it should...
Downloading now!
Post by: Karlito on November 19, 2020, 09:02:44 pm
Anyone try the air forces beta patch yet? I've not had a chance but I'm happy to see it's described as taking atmosphere and gravity into account when determining what is viable and what isn't - it feels like a step in the right direction WRT the saminess that afflicts this so much more than it seems like it should...
I was playing on a few of the patches last weekend. Makes the game a bit easier since even early aircraft seem very powerful. Independent forces and minor regimes don't really have air defenses, and majors (that I've seen) aren't too effective at protecting themselves either. Maybe things balance out a bit more once SAMs get researched...
Oh, and the aircraft model design taking 7 steps has made the need for a UI overhaul there very apparent.
Post by: A Thing on November 20, 2020, 12:18:55 am
This got posted to the forums and Vic replied that he was toying with the idea of navies. He also said it would happen in 2021, if it does.
Post by: Death Dragon on November 26, 2020, 04:12:35 pm
SE is currently 20% off on the publisher store:
https://www.matrixgames.com/game/shadow-empire
Buy it there, just so Vic gets a bit of a bigger cut than on steam. You still get a steam key anyway.
The airforce stuff is apparently getting pushed out of beta very soon. Probably still some bugs in there though.
Post by: The_Explorer on November 26, 2020, 04:17:59 pm
Post by: Journier on November 26, 2020, 09:15:59 pm
Post by: Death Dragon on November 27, 2020, 07:39:49 am
I've probably spent 100 hours wasting time on rerolls as I watch shows on my other monitor. Nothing else to do since waiting for cyberpunk and was doing other stuff so time went by fast. And not all in one day. But I can't get a dune planet with life, that isnt filled with moss or whatever that plant life is. Its supposedly possible, but someone else earlier in the thread didn't have much luck either and they tried longer than me.I think if you want a Dune-like planet in SE, you have to make some compromises.
A true Arrakis would:
- Be a dry desert planet, but with water in the atmosphere (no windtraps without atmospheric water)
- Have a human breathable atmosphere, without plant life
- Have alien animals, without plant life
I'm not sure if any of these three things are actually possible. If they're possible, then it might be a ridiculously low chance.
You're probably gonna have to settle with a planet that has some surface water and/or one that has some minimal alien shrubs like this one: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/382518915630366721/781862233642762261/alien_shrubs.jpg (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/382518915630366721/781862233642762261/alien_shrubs.jpg).
someone doing vids early on in shadow empire got a arrakis type planet with sandworms after rerolling alot. I remember the playthrough pretty well, pure luck though.If you mean Tortuga's Arrakis LP, I'm pretty sure he just did a planet without alien life and without water. That was from before the history classes were added, too, else he might have tried a bit more.
Post by: E. Albright on November 27, 2020, 02:25:58 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on November 28, 2020, 07:04:12 pm
Post by: Journier on November 28, 2020, 09:19:12 pm
Slow and steady till you get power plants, then do whatever.
Post by: Majestic7 on November 29, 2020, 05:31:13 am
Post by: E. Albright on November 29, 2020, 12:36:53 pm
Post by: Death Dragon on November 29, 2020, 02:08:19 pm
Well, you can't really avoid progressing down the tech tree if the dice choose so. I've now put research in economic tech to zero and all to discovery, but still keep getting discoveries in just other stuff than power.You definitely can avoid progressing down the tech tree. New tech tree sections get unlocked when you research 3 (I think that's the number) techs in the previous section, not when you discover them. So an early focus on discovery will make sure you get the power plants in a timely fashion.
If you want to start with the ability to build power plants, you can actually do that, too. Just increase the starting tech level when you start a new game.
Post by: Journier on November 29, 2020, 07:15:41 pm
my first few games of this game was without power plant tech for what seemed like over 100 turns. it was insane. then got this tip.
Post by: Death Dragon on December 01, 2020, 10:47:50 am
I'm sure there still are a lot of bugs anyway though. :P
This game is just so hard to properly bugtest with how complex everything is.
There apparently just was a little devlog post thing about the new alien fauna from the airforce update:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4918751
Post by: E. Albright on December 01, 2020, 12:37:49 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 01, 2020, 09:08:34 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My best hope lies with the Model Design Council which is hard at work trying to put together a prototype tactical bomber...
Post by: Vivalas on December 02, 2020, 11:18:20 am
I wanna try air forces beta but I actually really hate the early game and I don't think you can convert existing ones
Post by: E. Albright on December 02, 2020, 11:45:32 am
I eventually savescummed it to death rather than waiting for bombers (the sentinels to the north and aggressive imperium to the east made that no longer feasible), but it took A LOT of reloading. This was the fight that actually killed them. And by them, I mean one of them:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Death Dragon on December 02, 2020, 07:31:31 pm
I wanna try air forces beta but I actually really hate the early game and I don't think you can convert existing onesYou can start with higher tech level, additional zones, and starting military, if you don't know. You can pretty much skip the whole early game.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on December 02, 2020, 10:04:43 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 03, 2020, 12:08:24 pm
Post by: Knave on December 03, 2020, 04:54:19 pm
Those who purchased on Matrix previously can access their Steam key in their Matrix Acct.
20% off currently!
Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1154840/Shadow_Empire/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1154840/Shadow_Empire/)
Matrix:https://www.matrixgames.com/game/shadow-empire
(https://www.matrixgames.com/game/shadow-empire)
And here's a {NEW!} link to SET-UP series by Dastactic w/ new aircraft. Very good for learning the game and a lot of the under-the-hood mechanics:
(HERE) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idJWDKed9Zk[/url)
Post by: a1s on December 07, 2020, 10:58:15 am
SE is currently 20% off on the publisher store:Are we sure this is true?
https://www.matrixgames.com/game/shadow-empire
Buy it there, just so Vic gets a bit of a bigger cut than on steam.
Post by: Journier on December 07, 2020, 01:48:44 pm
SE is currently 20% off on the publisher store:Are we sure this is true?
https://www.matrixgames.com/game/shadow-empire
Buy it there, just so Vic gets a bit of a bigger cut than on steam.
doubt it, matrix takes high percentage of sales price compared to steam, IIRC 40% or some crazyness, steam is far less.
Post by: Journier on December 07, 2020, 01:49:27 pm
SE is currently 20% off on the publisher store:Are we sure this is true?
https://www.matrixgames.com/game/shadow-empire
Buy it there, just so Vic gets a bit of a bigger cut than on steam.
doubt it, matrix takes high percentage of sales price compared to steam, IIRC 40% or some crazyness, steam is far less.
however, what i am sure is occurring is matrix makes a sale on steam for his game, then keeps the 40% and cuts him a check
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 07, 2020, 04:35:35 pm
Post by: Death Dragon on December 14, 2020, 08:41:45 am
If you buy it on Steam, then both Valve and Matrix get a cut.SE is currently 20% off on the publisher store:Are we sure this is true?
https://www.matrixgames.com/game/shadow-empire
Buy it there, just so Vic gets a bit of a bigger cut than on steam.
doubt it, matrix takes high percentage of sales price compared to steam, IIRC 40% or some crazyness, steam is far less.
Post by: a1s on December 14, 2020, 09:44:57 am
Post by: E. Albright on December 14, 2020, 03:33:41 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This particular swarm doesn't look too bad, but the last one I took down was over 3x as large and took ~10k troops to contain it while an artillery regiment culled a couple thousand every turn. When we'd launch full-encirclement attacks, we'd take minor casualties, kill one or two thousand, and be forced to retreat b/c the swarm just didn't care. It lasted around 15-20 turns from when we started picking at it* with encircling siege infantry battalions to when we finally overran the remaining paltry 8k or so (after being repulsed at least 10 times prior).
Of all the things I expected to get out of Shadow Empire, a sci-fi strategic-level recreation of the Great Emu War was not something I ever even imagined.
*In the beginning, the Headers had a vile fifth column of human thralls reinforcing them and protecting their flank, but those foul apostates died quickly compared to their uncaring chitinous overlords.
Post by: A Thing on December 14, 2020, 03:42:33 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 14, 2020, 07:53:28 pm
Spoiler: Ichor spilled and chitin broken (click to show/hide)
Pretty sure that doesn't include those that surrendered themselves to canneries after the final battle of the campaign, nor does it show the human toll in this noble crusade, but the numbers and timelines at least aren't completely produced a posteriori...
Post by: MCreeper on December 15, 2020, 12:13:56 pm
The game sounds cool, but damn it doesn't look cool. Any patches to wait for, or is it just fine to try out right now?
Post by: E. Albright on December 15, 2020, 01:42:12 pm
There are some graphic mods out there, but I haven't messed with them much, and IIRC they don't touch the fullscreen event images, which IMO are the clunkiest looking parts.
Post by: Majestic7 on December 17, 2020, 04:50:50 am
Post by: Dostoevsky on December 17, 2020, 09:11:28 am
Post by: EuchreJack on December 17, 2020, 11:47:28 am
Post by: E. Albright on December 17, 2020, 11:51:13 am
(ninja'd)
(Note that "mostly hostile" for Nemesis feels like "not a major with regime types given to allying with you" rather than "an openly aggressive major" - I've had one who was quite happy to sign everything I put in front of them as long as it wasn't an actual alliance-type agreement.)
Post by: EuchreJack on December 17, 2020, 12:04:34 pm
17 meters long (or is it tall), metallic skin, shoot laser beams, aggressive to humans, and 30% of not dying to otherwise lethal damage.
I'm calling them Sheep Tanks. The only thing they're missing is turrets.
Oh, and there are 1900 of them.
Post by: AlStar on December 17, 2020, 12:19:03 pm
Do they at least harass the AI players as well?
Post by: E. Albright on December 17, 2020, 12:44:08 pm
Post by: LoSboccacc on December 17, 2020, 02:00:46 pm
a way to regroup all brigate units in a single hex?
I'm only having 2 brigates and some militia and already getting mad tracking them, I settled of moving them around with the group order in a stack, but after encircling the local fauna I've to regroup them and move them back to the capital and it's being annoying af
also, I see I've one zone which food production jumps up and down, where can I go check where resources are expended?
like the zone ux is actively mocking me
"Assets that consumed:"
https://i.imgur.com/xgqoPmi.png
Post by: EuchreJack on December 17, 2020, 05:41:18 pm
Is there a way to harness the local fauna, or are they entirely there as a nuisance / hinderance to your operations?
The only way to harness them, from what I understand, is that if a minor power uses them in their militia, and you take over said minor power, then you inherit militia that will use the local fauna.
The big problem there being that they're militia, so they're diluted versus if they were regular forces.
Post by: Vivalas on December 17, 2020, 09:06:44 pm
You also get industry from service tax and it's probably the foremost reason to expand early on (conquering zones and minors), unless you have a resource bottleneck, since building factories is insanely expensive.
Post by: Shooer on December 17, 2020, 10:01:30 pm
Post by: Mkok on December 18, 2020, 09:37:06 pm
There is really no downside to this strategy, you get TONS of free troops along with a free fully loyal region, if you fail you can just try again, stratagems are generated reliably, , all at the cost of some PP. It even felt OP in the previous game where I used it on farmers, you get less troops, but it is still a huge ammount. Best thing is, I didnt have to build a single thing in single city outside of the capital the whole time, only roads to connect the newly united clans.
But it felt great, I kinda felt like genghis khan, uniting all the divided raider clans, some by diplomacy some by force, and then swarming over the more advanced developed nation :D
Post by: EuchreJack on December 18, 2020, 10:25:22 pm
In most of my games, the AI usually doesn't declare war on any minor that I've declared protected, because they don't want what you're mentioning. Maybe the Nemesis AI is just stupid and belligerent.
Post by: E. Albright on December 18, 2020, 10:34:51 pm
Post by: Mkok on December 19, 2020, 07:59:26 am
I feel like the next game I play I will forbid myself from ever creating foreign affairs council to actually have any sort of difficulty.
I never used annexation as it had higher difficulty than integration higher PP cost and had a chance of going to war instead. Does this mean Unification is bugged? It has exactly the same requirements as annexation for me.
Post by: E. Albright on December 19, 2020, 12:28:12 pm
(If annexation and unification have wildly disparate difficulties, they may be similarly bugged - IDK)
Unification feels like it should have a downside when you fail, yes. Not that I think I've ever failed.
Post by: Mkok on December 20, 2020, 07:14:21 pm
Unification definitely needs some sort of change, maybe if it was realistically possible to succeed only with very hard relation and having new stratagem that can increase the relation to make it actually take more then just one turn after establishing client state ::) And somehow reducing the amount of militia you get upon unification/annexation might be a good idea as well, as right now you get crazy amounts as minors seem to get more and more militia every turn to protect themselves. Maybe if they actually started to slowly reduce their militia after they become client state? As in they would depend on you for protection so no need to keep such huge army or something ::) It might be just militia, but in those numbers it just zerg rushes everything...
Post by: E. Albright on December 20, 2020, 07:51:24 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on December 21, 2020, 06:53:24 am
Post by: E. Albright on December 21, 2020, 12:41:41 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on December 21, 2020, 05:28:20 pm
So, my map spawned with Trampler Sheep.
17 meters long (or is it tall), metallic skin, shoot laser beams, aggressive to humans, and 30% of not dying to otherwise lethal damage.
I'm calling them Sheep Tanks. The only thing they're missing is turrets.
Oh, and there are 1900 of them.
Those things are nastier than tanks due to sheer numbers. Dunno, could be rideable?
Post by: E. Albright on December 22, 2020, 04:44:12 am
Post by: gomez on December 22, 2020, 08:25:32 am
Secondly the minor states that have no cities, you normally have to kill them all to wipe them out, but one of them wandered in to a city I had just build and left unattended. So I declared war on them and took the city back next turn, thus winning the war and keeping all their land.
Post by: EuchreJack on December 22, 2020, 03:17:14 pm
You don't get your business back that you sell to one company because you're afraid another company will put you out of business. And its generally understood that these much larger companies are going to be relatively stable in regards to one another.
....now that second point may very well be Shadow Empire's Exploit of the Year. Does it work if one of those Non-Aligned factions that owns like 40% of the map takes over a new mine that I declared a city then yanked the troops from, then swiftly recapturing it to now own 40% more of the map? What if I "lose" a forward base to a Slaver faction, then reclaim it along with dominion over their slaver armies?
Which ironically is also historically accurate. The best way to conquer a nomadic tribe is to first convince them to put all their women and children in a city, then quickly assume dominion over the city. How well it simulates what happens when your troops leave the city, I can't say.
Post by: Knave on December 22, 2020, 03:39:06 pm
What are your favourite starting settings? I think my original play-throughs were always tech 3/no councils. But maybe that's too masochistic? Am I right in assuming tech 4 leads to a bit more fun of the bat?
Post by: E. Albright on December 22, 2020, 03:50:28 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 23, 2020, 03:03:45 am
I see, Im on stable, good to know this has already been fixed :D
Unification definitely needs some sort of change...
Quote from: Changelist for v1.06.14
-Unification and Annexation Stratagems are a bit more difficult in general now, but also a bit more variable in difficulty (based on the aggression of the target culture) *
Post by: Mkok on December 23, 2020, 01:14:04 pm
In my new game I started in a level 4 irradiated zone, and it didnt feel to actually do anything, does radiation actually do anything?
Also, is there any reason why to care about running out of credits other than not having money to invest? I ran few turns in deficit while being at 0 and did not notice a single penalty...
And for chemical troops... are they completely useless on lifeless planets without breathable atmosphere?
P.S. so I just had a raider minor steamroll 10 tiles into my territory to capture a city in a single turn... interesting
Post by: EuchreJack on December 23, 2020, 03:42:17 pm
Running out of credits does limit the options on decisions, so you might have to make sub-optimal choices if you can't sell enough resources to make your preferred decision. But you can select that decision after selling your surplus.
Doesn't running in the negative trigger unrest penalties over time, representing workers not getting paid and such? Or maybe it affects worker happiness? I thought there was something like that, but could be mistaken.
I think you're generally right about chemical troops. They're more a breathable atmosphere weapon.
Note that in the research screen, what appears to be chemical weapons are instead weapons that need chemicals to operate, AKA rockets and other explody things. So that tech line is very useful.
Assuming the manual is right, this might also prove problematic:
Quote
5.3.12.4. Losing Workers
Workers can leave your employment whenever they desire so. They will do this
to some measure when Worker Happiness is lower than Population Happiness.
They will leave in droves if you do not feed them (due to Food shortages) or
fail to pay them their promised Salaries.
So your workers leave, then your buildings stop functioning because they don't have workers. Suddenly your resources are depleted, so you can't trade for more credits or buy replacement resources. More of a long term thing, if working as intended.
Post by: E. Albright on December 23, 2020, 06:09:12 pm
Post by: Mkok on December 23, 2020, 06:19:34 pm
I dont know about unpaid workers leaving, but at the very least running out of money does not affect their happiness, and they still get happiness bonus for getting paid. I wonder what would happen if I maxed out all salaries and whenever I need cash just sold some rare metals ???
Yeah, it also feels a bit strange that on earth-like worlds you want your infantry to also wear envirosuits cause it gives better armor...
And it feels a bit weird that on planets with toxic atmosphere it is not easier to kill someone in envirosuit... you know, a minor wound would be so much more dangerous there... Overall this game really does not feel like being on some alien uninhabitable planet, personally I think of it more like being on earth that has been devastated by war, makes it a lot better...
Post by: Majestic7 on December 25, 2020, 05:21:49 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on December 25, 2020, 09:31:37 am
I really think enviroment should increase casualties. So hostile atmosphere or no atmosphere or aggressive alien microbiology would increase casualties among both infantry and vehicles. Hmm, not sure about vehicles though - if vehicles represent literal vehicles, then maybe vacuum breach would just kill the crew but leave the vehicle usable.On the flip side, some environments would be absolute hell on vehicle systems. Corrosive atmospheres, or driving through salty bogs and ankle deep brine, etc. I could see it going both ways
Post by: Majestic7 on December 26, 2020, 06:32:10 pm
I really think enviroment should increase casualties. So hostile atmosphere or no atmosphere or aggressive alien microbiology would increase casualties among both infantry and vehicles. Hmm, not sure about vehicles though - if vehicles represent literal vehicles, then maybe vacuum breach would just kill the crew but leave the vehicle usable.On the flip side, some environments would be absolute hell on vehicle systems. Corrosive atmospheres, or driving through salty bogs and ankle deep brine, etc. I could see it going both ways
[/quote]
Yeah, you are correct, especially when the game kind of rides on "you can play Dune on this", isn't that exactly what the Arrakis sand did to most vehicles?
Post by: EuchreJack on December 26, 2020, 08:12:04 pm
Post by: Mkok on December 30, 2020, 01:00:30 pm
Few things I noticed: Air bridges are damn useful, just few ultralight aircraft provided for my troops when rebels cut my rail lines. Air bridges love to scream "you bastards!". Tech level 8.5 AI loves to use firearms, combat armor and howitzers on tnaks while my tech level 7 army was already using battlesuits, laser rifles and beam gun heavy walkers. Airbases are a pain in the ass to built, I just used ultralight aircraft the whole game, although I did have cca 0,8 bar atmosphere while only 0,3g gravity, and after lots of aerodynamic + propeller optimizations all my planes had 20+ range with just ultralight turbo propeller even at max load. Metal is always in shortage. After having like 6+ cities people kept revolting and I had no idea why or where, nor did I even care, was too much micro. If you get event you dont like just ignore it, you save PP, and I didnt notice any downside. Aliens with lots of health bonuses and hard armor are a pain in the ass to kill, aircraft are your best friend against them. Artifacts are the boss, even uncommon sites give you the best artifacts like cloning or gravimetric generators, I researched solars around the time I got hi-tech industry just cause I had so much power from gravimetrics I scavenged from my single uncommon artifact site. Solars >> power plants. Get large enough population and you are swimming in so much cash you dont care about salaries at all.
Post by: Glloyd on December 30, 2020, 01:14:39 pm
Post by: Mkok on December 30, 2020, 02:00:27 pm
Also I played one game with it ticked on, and on that game I defeated the nemesis who was my closest neighbor at the very beginning before turn 30 using unifications. And in that game the AI was definitely bad, as they just kept giving me territory by withdrawing their troops every turn. Given that a single militia battalion was able to hold of my entire non-militia army that fully surrounded them for several turns, I suppose that if the AI actually bothered to mount some kind of real defense they might actually have had a chance. Not large as I had 500+ raiders but still better then giving up without putting up fight. The way they were fighting I only had some trouble taking cities, having me to throw few thousands raiders over several turns to overrun them, but as they only had three of them, and the first one was so close to my borders it was practically undefended...
Post by: EuchreJack on December 30, 2020, 06:52:29 pm
It's also the sort of map you should keep your starting save and tell everyone about.
Post by: Glloyd on December 30, 2020, 09:26:05 pm
Post by: Mkok on December 31, 2020, 08:32:14 am
I had a game where I started in a mountain valley, surrounded by 3tiles wide mountains on all sides except for one where militaristic nemesis declared on me on turn 5, oh, and the other side of mountains was no-man wasteland for half the map. That could have been a bit of a challenge, yes. Unfortunatelly I did not continue on that save, so I cant tell if a line of MGs would have worked there as well, though I can imagine if they fielded tanks then not. That is why I said the only difficulty in this game is at the beginning, if you make it to like turn 20+ and have more then a single city you might just as well stop playing as you have practically won already.
I hope the AI gets improvements, as this game has a lot of very interesting ideas and I think it would be fun to play vs a opponent who doesnt surrender the moment they see you are weaker then them, and the first 20-30 turns offer almost zero replayability.
Post by: E. Albright on December 31, 2020, 11:57:55 am
I'd generally say that's my overall experience here: when I've been challenged, it's the logistics of the situation that is daunting, not the cunning AI. I'm currently in a game where I've just killed my second major and have a hostile one on my western flank and a blackmailer theocrat eating the last few minors on my eastern flank where I had most of my forces tied up in a long war making peace (or rather, piece) between the two feuding majors there. I'm actually a bit concerned about my situation, as the eastern major looks pretty advanced and has a decent setup. The western one is fielding multiple corps that I'm currently holding back with two brigades and several bomber wings, but they've been slowed by the mountains so we've only been face-to-face fighting for two or three Terran years and their superior numbers really haven't been brought to bear. The biggest problem I've had this game has been logistic; there's really nasty fauna that takes concerted effort to destroy (though it's getting easier as my tech moved into WWIII territory) who threaten my supply lines, and I'm at the point where I'm really thinking it would make sense to make a second SHQ. My rail backbone is managing to supply both fronts, but troop replacement is slow.
Here's a question: how big are the planets you lot are playing on, and how fast is tech development set to? I tend to go large and slower - that seems to make a huge difference. Majors still like to give ground, but I'm not at risk of winning any time soon - I expect I need to kill off one or both of these majors before that will become a possibility. The idea of winning after conquering my immediate neighbors sounds like something I've only seen messing around on small moons or planetoids.
Post by: Mkok on December 31, 2020, 12:51:47 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 31, 2020, 03:04:03 pm
If you want I can post my current save or a save from any intermediate stage since game start. I'm sure I'm horridly inefficient given that I'm playing on the... 2nd easiest? difficulty level, but unless I'm wildly incompetent (which is possible; I'm a builder, not a fighter) it really sounds the setup I'm running would have been more challenging for you than what you've been doing despite the difficulty setting.
(The fauna is also pretty nasty. That hasn't helped. Nor did the fact that I didn't get reliable power generation until right around when my tanks were pushing towards the first major's capital.)
Post by: Mkok on December 31, 2020, 05:25:16 pm
If you want I can post my current save or a save from any intermediate stage since game start. I'm sure I'm horridly inefficient given that I'm playing on the... 2nd easiest? difficulty level, but unless I'm wildly incompetent (which is possible; I'm a builder, not a fighter) it really sounds the setup I'm running would have been more challenging for you than what you've been doing despite the difficulty setting.
Might not be that bad of an idea if you could post the initial save :D At least I will get to see if I simply figured how to play after few games or if I just had good starts :D
Post by: E. Albright on December 31, 2020, 06:50:16 pm
Post by: Mkok on December 31, 2020, 08:12:30 pm
Just a bit of things I noticed upon quick glance at your save: you seem to have your profile all over the place and your models are spread quite a bit. Also at least the aliens I found should be easy to handle with few precision bombers 8)
Also how long are your turn times, I tried advancing your turn and it took 12 minutes :D
Post by: E. Albright on December 31, 2020, 09:41:26 pm
Re: fauna, hard attack didn't seem to do a lot to those things, but you may not be looking at what I mean by "those things" when I say "those things". I *might* have killed them off. If so, they'll be a fun surprise for ya on the new game, hehehe.
What do you mean my "models are spread quite a bit"? D'ya mean my units? If so, that's b/c I had just knocked off a major in the NE, and was cleaning up scraps while moving to re-deploy to focus on the active war in the west. While also not entirely trusting the theo-blackmailers in the SE. If you mean my models, I'm just confused.
Profile-wise, the only thing that's ever consistent for me is Democracy through the roof - the rest tends to go wherever and I end up spread about with low-level feats in most areas but few high-level ones. This has always worked pretty well for my playstyle. This game has had lower commerce and gov't than I usually have, though.
Post by: Mkok on January 01, 2021, 09:15:21 am
You seem to have only a single model type with 115+ structural design, I feel that if you were to develop few more designs per models you use a lot you should be able to get better designs. Most notably your infantry is only average, one or two more model lines should get you a line with better structural design easily and after some iterations they should be better then your current ones.
Post by: E. Albright on January 01, 2021, 10:14:42 am
[Edit: I'd guess the distribution is 10d6; if so, you're looking at ~4% to be >= 115. 6d10 OTOH would be ~5%. Neither of these are promising targets; at 1 new model per 2 turns, I'd need to spend an average of 32 turns (or 25 for 6d10) before I got one in the range you're hoping for. That's really not very enticing...]
Post by: Karlito on January 01, 2021, 10:37:14 am
[Edit: I'd guess the distribution is 10d6; if so, you're looking at ~4% to be >= 115. 6d10 OTOH would be ~5%. Neither of these are promising targets; at 1 new model per 2 turns, I'd need to spend an average of 32 turns (or 25 for 6d10) before I got one in the range you're hoping for. That's really not very enticing...]
Gotta wonder how the Director's technician roll can affect that.
Post by: E. Albright on January 01, 2021, 11:00:49 am
Post by: Mkok on January 01, 2021, 07:38:52 pm
One thing I noticed is that if you look at details of airplane designs it says structural design is 70-130 + aircraft design optimization/2, so if this is true it could theoretically reach 180 for airplanes I guess ;D But land units do not seem to have this plus part...
Post by: E. Albright on January 01, 2021, 09:19:17 pm
(At this point it would need to be extraordinarily good to be worth it anyway, as my workhorse infantry model has been refined up to 156 Base Design. The new design is 96. It has ~5/6ths the HP and 3/4s the attack/def values, and would take A LOT of fieldtesting followed by re-designs to make up the difference.)
Post by: EuchreJack on January 02, 2021, 08:28:54 am
Post by: E. Albright on January 02, 2021, 03:24:10 pm
Post by: E. Albright on January 04, 2021, 10:53:17 am
The Majors aren't the real enemies. Its the Slavers, Spiders, Walker AI faction, and wildlife that are the true obstacles to your dominion of the planet. You get hit with all that by turn 5, you'll be in a real fight. It's doable, but it might be the sort of map that you may need to play a second/third/fourth time to win.
It's also the sort of map you should keep your starting save and tell everyone about.
As per your request: https://gofile.io/d/LLmrhG
(I'm waiting on a bug resolution on my long-slog game, so I started this ammonia-carbon-based world in the mean time. Alas, I didn't have the patience to hold out for the cherry-blossom ammonia-carbon color palate, and settled for the earth-tone ammonia-carbon color palate, so it's not as pretty as some of the biospheres I saw during generation.
You should get some hawt minor regime action in a hurry here. I don't know how bad the 15m squid analogs are, as they *might* be limited to the polar regions, but in any case they aren't in the starting neighborhood.)
Post by: EuchreJack on January 06, 2021, 04:44:20 pm
They must have a cloning machine. Obviously, I left them alone as apparently only they know how to work the bloody thing... :-X
EDIT: For those who haven't ever touched the colonist tab, you CAN demobilize the colonists back into your regular population. So its not like I'm even getting different types of people or anything. Although if it was soldiers, I'd probably still take the deal (and I did chose to keep the Battle Dojo, because 200 regular soldiers per turn is worth more than making my militia slightly less inept).
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 06, 2021, 05:45:36 pm
Post by: E. Albright on February 20, 2021, 12:18:06 am
Spoiler: The dreaded domesticated morpher (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vivalas on February 20, 2021, 01:06:19 am
Post by: E. Albright on February 20, 2021, 01:13:26 am
Post by: Mkok on February 20, 2021, 10:40:44 am
Just be glad they are not entangler III 8)
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on February 20, 2021, 11:44:36 am
Post by: E. Albright on February 20, 2021, 01:58:33 pm
Re: my morpher problem, it's not quite turn 20 so I'm not sure I can make light aircraft bombers that can reliably deliver 500 firepower of precision bombs. On the plus side, my xeno-diplomats managed to get a rough grasp of xenospeak/gestures so we could make peace with the reptiloids - now all we have to worry about are the wild morphers, various 11m metallic big cat analogues, and some amphibian-looking hellbeasts coming at us from two sides. OTOH, our xenoliguistics has advanced enough that maybe we can convince the xenos to give us some mercs, and maybe those mercs will include some morphers of our own and not just lizard tribesfolk, hehehe...
[Edit: To answer my own ponderings - I can make a range-6 bomber that has enough firepower to hopefully punch through morpher absorption - and yes, sacrificing 12 relation points was enough to get the reptiloids to send me 1500 lizardmen with 500 domesticated morphers as support...]
Post by: EuchreJack on February 20, 2021, 05:00:17 pm
Hey did they happen to add the ability to destroy roads and rails by any chance???
You can destroy roads and rail in territory that you control. I don't think you can destroy road/rail in enemy territory, which makes sense because you'd basically be hurting your own advance far more than the enemy's reinforcements.
Nice, they implemented Xenos that can talk!
Post by: Vivalas on February 21, 2021, 12:05:55 pm
Is there a certain amount of time you need to hold it? Destroying roads could act as a sort of scorched earth tactic to delay a superior enemy while you reinforce
Post by: E. Albright on February 21, 2021, 06:16:03 pm
Nothing few bombers cannot manage :D And if they fail to communicate just tell them to release the bombs and get back for another round ;D
Just be glad they are not entangler III 8)
IDK, these seem meek compared to those wretched Morphers.
Spoiler: How are these this planet's Apex Predators, and not appetizers? (click to show/hide)
Entangler makes things harder to kill on the ground, but to get rid of Morphers I've been dumping 1-2k of ammo from 18 bombers in order to kill 1-4 Morphers per attack. And they come in stacks of 10-20, and there's A LOT of them, with various metallic energy cats, landsharks, and other abominations protecting their flanks. If I'd started next to a major or more than one hostile minor regime (with the one I did have to fight being an AI, whose sentinels didn't fair much better against morphers than I did once the reptiloids gave me a stack or two of my own), I think I'd've been eaten by this jungle hellscape.
Post by: E. Albright on February 23, 2021, 03:12:01 am
Also, an unstated advantage of even the scruffiest alien militia unit over human troops is that the aliens live off the land and need no supplies or logistic connections, which ofc is lovely for scouting.
Post by: E. Albright on February 25, 2021, 12:25:22 am
What qualifies as enemy territory though? I thought friendly territory was anywhere your troops are.
Is there a certain amount of time you need to hold it? Destroying roads could act as a sort of scorched earth tactic to delay a superior enemy while you reinforce
Enemy territory is territory you didn't hold at the start of your turn. As long as you start your turn holding it - and can draw a line from your logistic network to it through friendly territory - you can raze it. If you can't reach from your road to it at the start of your turn, demolition is impossible. The only exception to this is if you annex/unify with a minor power during your turn - at that point you can build/destroy into that territory, but you can't start a build/destroy path from within it. There's also an upper limit on how far you can stretch a build/destroy path from existing road to your target hex, but it's a pretty long distance.
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on February 25, 2021, 08:22:47 am
Hey did they happen to add the ability to destroy roads and rails by any chance???
You can destroy roads and rail in territory that you control. I don't think you can destroy road/rail in enemy territory, which makes sense because you'd basically be hurting your own advance far more than the enemy's reinforcements.
Nice, they implemented Xenos that can talk!
Thats good, when I was playing a lot I played defensively so I'm happy there is an option to remove roads that (for example) go over a mountain range if I can capture them.
Post by: EuchreJack on February 25, 2021, 09:56:20 pm
Hey did they happen to add the ability to destroy roads and rails by any chance???
You can destroy roads and rail in territory that you control. I don't think you can destroy road/rail in enemy territory, which makes sense because you'd basically be hurting your own advance far more than the enemy's reinforcements.
Nice, they implemented Xenos that can talk!
Thats good, when I was playing a lot I played defensively so I'm happy there is an option to remove roads that (for example) go over a mountain range if I can capture them.
If you destroy a road that goes over a mountain range, you'll probably never get enough spare resources to rebuild it, and the enemy can build roads wherever it wants either without paying the extra cost or for free.
Post by: E. Albright on February 26, 2021, 01:48:20 am
Post by: Karlito on February 26, 2021, 08:32:51 pm
Hey did they happen to add the ability to destroy roads and rails by any chance???
You can destroy roads and rail in territory that you control. I don't think you can destroy road/rail in enemy territory, which makes sense because you'd basically be hurting your own advance far more than the enemy's reinforcements.
Nice, they implemented Xenos that can talk!
Thats good, when I was playing a lot I played defensively so I'm happy there is an option to remove roads that (for example) go over a mountain range if I can capture them.
If you destroy a road that goes over a mountain range, you'll probably never get enough spare resources to rebuild it, and the enemy can build roads wherever it wants either without paying the extra cost or for free.
With the most recent release, the AI is supposed to respect mountains a bit more with regard to road building. I haven't gotten to really see what it's like myself.
Post by: EuchreJack on February 26, 2021, 10:41:41 pm
Post by: Dostoevsky on February 28, 2021, 01:58:11 pm
Post by: E. Albright on February 28, 2021, 03:32:18 pm
Post by: Majestic7 on February 28, 2021, 05:16:26 pm
Post by: Dostoevsky on February 28, 2021, 05:41:46 pm
Emperor of the Fading Suns (https://www.gog.com/game/emperor_of_the_fading_suns)
Ah, that makes sense, thanks.
Post by: Coffeespoons on March 02, 2021, 06:50:56 am
Post by: Majestic7 on March 02, 2021, 06:52:18 am
Post by: Coffeespoons on March 02, 2021, 09:11:30 am
It was on sale recently on Steam, likely ended yesterday. So a new sale is unlikely soon.
Ain't that the story of my life.
Post by: Coffeespoons on March 02, 2021, 11:15:41 am
Post by: EuchreJack on March 02, 2021, 06:00:32 pm
Post by: Coffeespoons on March 03, 2021, 01:21:16 pm
However it's totalling baffling beyond the rather pleasing game setup.
I guess I'm going to have to roll my sleeves up and read / watch some stuff to make heads or tails of it.
On an unrelated note I dug from the recesses of my memory what it reminded me of so far as overall theme - another card based post-apoc game by another Vic - Armageddon Empires which I rather enjoyed nearly a dozen years ago.
Post by: E. Albright on March 03, 2021, 01:54:39 pm
I'd recommend Das Tactic's bite-sized videos tackling one or two ideas at a time.
Post by: Dostoevsky on March 03, 2021, 02:15:15 pm
Post by: E. Albright on March 03, 2021, 02:35:22 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on March 04, 2021, 11:59:04 pm
Okay so I thought given my mastery of Dominions 5, my subjugation of DF and my multiple ascensions of most of the roguelikes I had this covered.
However it's totalling baffling beyond the rather pleasing game setup.
I guess I'm going to have to roll my sleeves up and read / watch some stuff to make heads or tails of it.
On an unrelated note I dug from the recesses of my memory what it reminded me of so far as overall theme - another card based post-apoc game by another Vic - Armageddon Empires which I rather enjoyed nearly a dozen years ago.
Didn't realize that Armageddon Empires was the same developer.
The independents in Dominions 5 never posed the threat that wildlife poses in this game. More like the Carp from older versions of DF, and Forgotten Beasts in the current version. It helps to remember how much time was actually spent learning DF.
Post by: Majestic7 on March 05, 2021, 02:31:10 am
Post by: EuchreJack on March 07, 2021, 11:38:43 pm
...for some reason, that reminds of Shadow Empire. ;)
Post by: Coffeespoons on March 08, 2021, 11:56:57 am
Post by: EuchreJack on March 08, 2021, 04:44:22 pm
Post by: Coffeespoons on March 12, 2021, 05:36:20 am
I'm having a great deal of fun with this, not been as enthused by a game for quite some time. There's some real depth to the systems and a genuinely wide variety of playstyles. Strong reco!
Post by: kingofthescots on March 31, 2021, 07:59:48 am
Post by: Digital Hellhound on April 06, 2021, 08:10:01 am
I'm getting a handle on things at last, but in my latest game I have an odd problem. The SHQ refuses to allocate any logistics points towards unit replacements, however high I put the setting in its admin panel. I can manually replace them just fine. There's plenty of supply to go around and the reinforcements won't get sent out even if I park the suffering unit right on top of the SHQ.
Any idea what could be causing this? Manually replenishing each unit is pretty tiresome.
Post by: Mkok on April 06, 2021, 10:18:51 am
Or do you mean replacing loses? In this case you must have a suitable unit in your SHQ, they will not autorecruit.
Post by: Vivalas on April 06, 2021, 11:09:52 am
Post by: Shooer on April 06, 2021, 11:42:21 am
Means my reinforcements have some XP as opposed to being mostly green when arriving on the front.
Post by: E. Albright on April 06, 2021, 02:19:26 pm
Post by: Digital Hellhound on April 06, 2021, 02:58:44 pm
The SHQ sends supplies normally, just not replacements. The basic setting for it prioritizes supplies over replacements, but there's plenty of leftover LP in this case and forcing it to only send replacements just meant nothing at all was sent.
I hadn't considered the quality settings interfering. Will need to check that out. Suspect it could be a bug too, though, since it has been working before. Oh well.
Post by: Karlito on April 09, 2021, 08:34:26 am
The SHQ sends supplies normally, just not replacements. The basic setting for it prioritizes supplies over replacements, but there's plenty of leftover LP in this case and forcing it to only send replacements just meant nothing at all was sent.
I hadn't considered the quality settings interfering. Will need to check that out. Suspect it could be a bug too, though, since it has been working before. Oh well.
Are you certain there's no bottleneck somewhere along the path? If you move depleted units back to your capital, will they reinforce there?
Post by: Cthulhu on April 12, 2021, 07:45:04 am
When I invade a major regime later in the game, can I expect to see big lines along my border that try to prevent me from just looping around? Will the enemy know how to concentrate and try to punch through those lines at their weak points? Similarly, is the enemy AI smart enough to actually keep up into the late game? I worry about games like Civilization where outside the hardest difficulties eventually it's like 2030 tech vs WW1 and you just plow through them without any challenge at all.
Just in general, how do the later game wars feel? Are they good, or is most of the challenge and fun in the earlier parts of the game?
Post by: E. Albright on April 12, 2021, 08:26:58 am
Post by: Mkok on April 12, 2021, 01:24:10 pm
Minors never get better troops, so they are just there to be food the whole game, they only get more militia as game progresses.
Post by: E. Albright on April 12, 2021, 02:30:10 pm
I'd also point out that the games where I had a challenge from majors were engagement no earlier than turn 50 if not 100 - that makes for a much more involved opposition just in terms of muddled complexity. I'd also guess that I was dealing with a much larger planet if you were hitting endgame at turn 30-ish. Logistics become a lot more of an issue when you're dealing with more meaningful distances, especially if you've got incursions on multiple fronts. Aircraft are a lot more powerful on small maps as well; on a big map you need to keep pushing out airbases as the front moves until you've gotten to at least turboprops in most atmospheres.
The main enemy still felt like it was logistics, but that's pretty much feeling right in any case. It helped that clearing alien lifeforms was also never an easy task.
Post by: E. Albright on April 15, 2021, 06:05:19 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on April 15, 2021, 09:14:02 pm
AI sort of got lobotomized in the name of speeding up turn processing. There is an option for better AI, if you don't mind looooooooooooooooong turns.
Post by: E. Albright on June 16, 2021, 11:17:06 am
I encourage everyone to hope over and whine that planet atmosphere/biosphere/climate doesn't have enough distinct impact on how combat, model design, etc. function from one planet to the wildly-different next one... :P
Post by: EuchreJack on June 16, 2021, 10:19:37 pm
Quote from: Shadow Empire Poll #1
20.
Is there anything else you would like to share about Shadow Empire (positive, negative, as you wish!)
Quote from: me whining as ordered
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=176612.msg8287946#msg8287946
Planet atmosphere/biosphere/climate doesn't have enough distinct impact on how combat, model design, etc. function from one planet to the wildly-different next one.
Post by: E. Albright on June 23, 2021, 02:19:28 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 23, 2021, 08:14:52 pm
Recall that NO standard formations use Recon, my personal favorite early game unit, so color me interested!
Post by: E. Albright on June 23, 2021, 09:24:18 pm
Post by: Karlito on June 23, 2021, 09:32:52 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 24, 2021, 04:32:03 pm
With one or two Tank & Mechanized infantry being the base formation...
Post by: E. Albright on July 16, 2021, 12:34:25 pm
Started under the latest beta, so bunkers, etc. are in it. Too toxic for farming, but plenty of water. Lots of inedible alien plants and critters (none smart). Middle-of-the-road atmosphere/gravity combo so air power isn't OP. 28% mountains and 8% oceans - logistics will be one of your main enemies. You're surrounded by raiders, marauders, and critters - while there are mutants, sentinels, spiders, and slavers, all those are a bit further out. Only one major so you should be able to do more AI calculation w/o bogging down too much - in retrospect, I'll actually say "spread out start" may have done TOO good of a job here, but I've had too many games where I started right by majors despite it so I took it in stride. 1.4b pre-collapse pop so there are ruins to find, but you're not drowning in them. Oh, and very important - it's redscale plants and oceans. ;p
I'll also add that I've fallen further in love with adding 4xMechMachineguns to Light Armor/Assault Infantry formations. The synergy is outstanding.
And while it's not cost-effective in any way, I have to say I've found it to be immensely satisfying to use SRBMs to nuke a few thousand slavers/mutants/critters when they make the mistake of congregating somewhere that I don't mind irradiating. That's an issue on this planet b/c all of the above are good at slinking back into the copious mountains and being rather tedious to root out, even with aircraft.
Post by: EuchreJack on July 16, 2021, 03:39:01 pm
Someone said a while back they liked rough starts. Here's one: https://file.io/V88bpY3v3TJD
I almost think that was me...
So, beta. It's been a while, does that mean that I need to manually install?
Post by: E. Albright on July 16, 2021, 04:54:35 pm
On the subject of old conversations, this one being about whether minors get better troops over time, here's the best 3 units from a minor (raider) regime on turn 116 on the above map. Their next-door neighbor has nothing but raider militia, militia bikes/buggies, and irregular tanks/arti/trucks. I really don't get why some minors get so much more advanced units than others over time. For comparison, I also included 2 militia regiments that formed in raider-culture zones I control during the last 20 turns.
Spoiler: High-tech Militia (click to show/hide)
Post by: EuchreJack on July 16, 2021, 07:06:48 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I think the lizards have a pretty good chance of winning that one...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Mkok on August 29, 2021, 09:00:24 am
Plus from what I saw majors seem to be struggling a bit with minors as well now...
Post by: E. Albright on August 29, 2021, 09:37:18 am
Post by: Karlito on August 29, 2021, 10:16:27 am
Post by: Mkok on August 29, 2021, 12:43:11 pm
Maybe, but withdrawing when there is nowhere to be flanked unless enemy punches through your lines? I dont ask why it does it, all I know is it lets you surround cities basically for free making it real easy to defeat. Though I guess now that unification is no longer broken it might no longer be so easy to defeat nemesis by turn 30...
AI material superiority does not matter, does not matter if AI is retreating with double your army size or triple, zero times anything is still zero. All that matters is you can establish a defensive line + few units extra to grab that free land, which is very easy to do even early on. And then you just want few tanks to take that city. In my last game AI had more troops than me, and better tech, yet it was still retreating allowing me to make it half way to their city with no fights in less then 5 turns. Also note that I was not the one who started that war, though I did have 6 units in the area in case they invaded.
edit:
So I gave it another try, extreme difficulty, medium lava world with harsh resolution war setting, gave the AI more time to think. Currently have been in a war with a major who has 1 tech lvl more than me for some time now. Still have to see any resemblance of a battle line from them, they keep doing nothing but retreating, giving me free land, and their army composition is just criminally terrible. We have both had laser rifles and heavy battlesuit researched for quite a while, but 90 percent of enemy army is still heavy armor charged gauss infantry (with the odd one with laser rifle and heavy battlesuit mixed in), only a few artillery and less then 100 tanks mixed in. And those tanks are still using steel armor, so there is absolutely nothing to even challenge my small group of terribly designed light tanks with 50mm armor and 60mm gun that are steamrolling the enemy. And once again, I was not the one who started the war, the entire army I am fighting with did not even exist when I was DOWed upon, and it cost me no more then a single turn of resource production (not counting the useless thousands of robotic infantry that for some reason are mandatory in every single infantry oob, those cost 10 turns of high-tech production). But once again I must say the dev did a very good job with turn times, I was afraid with slower AI it would be unplayable once again, but it was not so. Now just to make the AI at least somewhat capable to provide at least some kind of challenge and we will have a real gem of a game here
Post by: E. Albright on December 07, 2021, 08:37:04 pm
Spoiler: But still, it IS pretty... (click to show/hide)
Anyway, if anyone is interested, here's the starting save: https://file.io/jmdU3mA22Rr5
Post by: EuchreJack on December 07, 2021, 09:09:06 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 09, 2021, 10:49:29 am
Also, anyone knows how best to reliably push into high meritocracy? As I play, I inevitably end up with high democracy, due to all those unrest events and cults and whatnot random shit.
Post by: Karlito on December 09, 2021, 01:05:41 pm
I may have asked this before, but what the hell am I supposed to imagine as a 'blather analogue'? A long-winded substance-free speech made flesh?I can only assume it means a creature akin to the owl guy from Animal Crossing.
Also, anyone knows how best to reliably push into high meritocracy? As I play, I inevitably end up with high democracy, due to all those unrest events and cults and whatnot random shit.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
And yes, some profiles seem harder to raise than others. At least a lot of the Democracy giving events also have a Meritocracy option, though if you want to go that route, you probably really need to to dedicate yourself- i.e. oppress all the cults that have an unfavorable profile, and never ever take an option that gives points to the other profiles. I believe stratagems you get from scrap points usually (always?) raise a profile as one of their effects, so you can make those and only play the ones with the desired profile effects.
I haven't really figured this out yet, but it seems like it's possible to manage your factions in such a way to get desired profile effects- e.g. keeping a weak faction with incompatible ethics around just so you can refuse their demands, which is one of the better ways to get negative profile points. Getting negative points in the undesired profiles is much more efficient that just trying to boost your desired one all the time.
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 09, 2021, 01:17:51 pm
Ain't that one a given name, though? It'd be like 'this 23m top predator resembles a Timmy analogue'.I may have asked this before, but what the hell am I supposed to imagine as a 'blather analogue'? A long-winded substance-free speech made flesh?I can only assume it means a creature akin to the owl guy from Animal Crossing.
Also, anyone knows how best to reliably push into high meritocracy? As I play, I inevitably end up with high democracy, due to all those unrest events and cults and whatnot random shit.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: E. Albright on December 09, 2021, 02:20:26 pm
I may have asked this before, but what the hell am I supposed to imagine as a 'blather analogue'? A long-winded substance-free speech made flesh?
Some of the names actually point to what they are. They're functionally living bags or balls. I'm not sure if they're supposed to be called bladder analogues, or what, but these are presumably roughly sacks of organs with mouths, limbs, tentacles, whatever. In Bay12 terms, they're like Stumpy-Wumples. If you're played No Man's Sky, they'd be like the random pineapples-with-spider-eyes beasties and other such bouncy critters you sometimes encounter.
[Edit: okay, just as a sanity check (heh) I loaded up No More Stumpy-Wumples for the first time in probably 15y, and Stumpy-Wumples are more humanoid than I remembered. So it's not as good of a parallel as I thought. The NMS one holds pretty well, though:
Spoiler: A random wumple analog from NMS (click to show/hide)
I believe stratagems you get from scrap points usually (always?) raise a profile as one of their effects, so you can make those and only play the ones with the desired profile effects.
Usually. Scrap buildings always raise a profile, but scrap leaders may or may not raise a profile - they're either characterized by a profile they raise, or by one of their personality traits. However, the leaders seem to get some profiles more than others, and meritocracy & autocracy seem to be favorites for them.
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 09, 2021, 02:54:40 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 09, 2021, 03:09:18 pm
Strategum recycling, introduced in 1.07.02. Every card you ditch gives a certain number of points that you can use to craft random cards - either private city assets (w/bonus profile points) or leaders of fixed levels (which may or may not have bonus profile points).
For example:
Spoiler: Three scrap-generated leaders (click to show/hide)
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 09, 2021, 03:10:56 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 09, 2021, 03:14:30 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 09, 2021, 03:25:05 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 11, 2021, 10:20:44 am
https://drive.google.com/file/d/121XOyV9BtrF1zrBjOahAipCaS86Fozhr/view?usp=sharing
Post by: Karlito on December 11, 2021, 10:58:26 am
Ugh, I feel like I've forgotten a bunch about the nuts and bolts of logistics in my time away from this game. Anyone wants to take a stab at telling me why all these fuckers are having supply issues? I've been gradually expanding the troop roster, and it looks like at some point they've become too much to handle for some reason. But they're all supplied pretty much directly from the home base, or from the short roads that still have logistics points on them. So why the shortages?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/121XOyV9BtrF1zrBjOahAipCaS86Fozhr/view?usp=sharing
Well you've got a food shortage, for one. Did you know you have a food shortage? Looking at your SHQ supply detail, your units requested 604 items (which would be mostly food, I assume), and only 217 food was actually delivered (your entire stock of food the previous turn). Now, readiness is still pretty good and only a few of the militia are starving, so they're all just requesting 2 or 3 times what they eat in a turn to replenish their reserves and then showing a red dot when they don't get that.
Some units are also reporting insufficient logistic points, and yeah, I'm not sure why we aren't seeing bottlenecks. Possibly the fact that there is so much off-road delivery messes up the display. It looks like you nationalized the truck station recently, and so even with the worker shortages you'll see a 66% increase in logistics points on the turn following the save which should clear up that problem.
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 11, 2021, 11:05:11 am
Post by: Karlito on December 11, 2021, 11:12:47 am
Ah, right. I kinda suspected the starvation had something to do with not having enough stock at the end of the turn. Somehow I went along with assuming it's fine until the stocks hit zero. Thanks.Yeah, food (and everything else) is first sent out from the SHQ, and only after does it collect the new production from zones. But, zones can also supply their own constructions from the current turn's production- so there might be some cases where you build a building without enough metal in the SHQ, but because the zone is producing the metal you still get 100% construction for the turn.
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 11, 2021, 10:51:18 pm
Post by: axiomsofdominion on December 31, 2021, 09:05:32 pm
Post by: Vivalas on January 01, 2022, 03:33:34 am
https://www.vrdesigns.net/ (https://www.vrdesigns.net/)
Post by: dehimos on January 01, 2022, 05:59:05 am
Is there anything like a fantasy version of this game? Shadow Empire is *almost* there for me in a lot of ways. Sure it isn't quite as deep as I'd like and I hate games with cards, same for Star Ruler as this one, but it has little competition in areas it is strong in. Even a mod that does Shadowrun style cyberpunk/urban fantasy mix would be awesome.
I do not know of anything similar, the logistics system does not usually appear in fantasy games or ancient world.
Others that may look similar are:
Deity Empires https://store.steampowered.com/app/889080/Deity_Empires/
Goblin Storm https://store.steampowered.com/app/713840/Goblin_Storm/
Post by: axiomsofdominion on January 01, 2022, 10:53:10 am
Is there anything like a fantasy version of this game? Shadow Empire is *almost* there for me in a lot of ways. Sure it isn't quite as deep as I'd like and I hate games with cards, same for Star Ruler as this one, but it has little competition in areas it is strong in. Even a mod that does Shadowrun style cyberpunk/urban fantasy mix would be awesome.
I do not know of anything similar, the logistics system does not usually appear in fantasy games or ancient world.
Others that may look similar are:
Deity Empires https://store.steampowered.com/app/889080/Deity_Empires/
Goblin Storm https://store.steampowered.com/app/713840/Goblin_Storm/
I have Deity Empires but I mostly got it as a policy purchase. Buy indie games that are at least trying to push the strategy/simulation/rpg genres forward even if they are 6/10s.
Post by: Glloyd on February 10, 2022, 04:44:17 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That's right, oceans and watery planets, with player controlled navies coming at some point in the future after some AI development.
Post by: a1s on February 10, 2022, 04:54:59 pm
Post by: Mkok on February 11, 2022, 04:43:00 am
Post by: axiomsofdominion on February 11, 2022, 08:45:37 am
Finally, he will soon get to improve the AI :D The AI being trivially easy to beat is pretty much the only reason there is very little replayability. Looking forward to it.
Is it too easy? I have followed the game for a while but not bought it yet. Mainly because making my own game means I rarely have time for fun. Ironic. Been really debating getting it cause of the sale but maybe I should wait.
Post by: EuchreJack on February 11, 2022, 11:02:46 am
Finally, he will soon get to improve the AI :D The AI being trivially easy to beat is pretty much the only reason there is very little replayability. Looking forward to it.
Is it too easy? I have followed the game for a while but not bought it yet. Mainly because making my own game means I rarely have time for fun. Ironic. Been really debating getting it cause of the sale but maybe I should wait.
It's worth playing if only to explore its game concepts. And the logistics system is a game in itself.
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 11, 2022, 11:48:46 am
E.g. the AI can't properly deal with a contiguous frontline. If it has significant technological advantage, it can pose a threat. Otherwise it will not make and exploit breakthroughs - rather, it'll tend to gradually reposition in response to your actions, which in effect allows you to advance your troops up to and beyond the cities it is trying to defend. So, you see, this isn't a bug you're exploiting that you could justify not doing. It's more like you pretty much have to form a frontline to check the threat from flanking/raiding behaviour, at which point there's little threat left.
Or, another example, the independents (minors, animals, 'barbarians') will not invade their neighbours, unless it's another major power. Which means that once you begin to border an independent province, even with a single hex, they can (and will) decide to pour through that new border into your territory. Similarly, whether alien natives or majors begin to interact with you diplomatically (which often consists of significant/impossible demands and a threat of war) depends on having/not having a border. And since the major difficulty, once the front lines are secured, becomes supplying and reinforcing your ever growing armies, it is optimal for your scouts/raiders/armies to not claim the last line of hexes between whomever you're at war with and the neighbouring provinces so that you don't suddenly have to put another frontline up there. Or when you conquer/diplomatically annex a minor city, and all of their territory changes ownership to your regime, the up-to-this-point stable borders suddenly overflow with all the indie hordes because now it's a fair game apparently. So, you either deal with the unrealistic-looking and frustrating invasions, or you end up with unrealistic-looking and frustrating to create borders.
Having said that, I've had >a lot< of fun learning its various systems, building logistical networks, and even just generating new worlds.
Post by: Salmeuk on February 11, 2022, 11:57:22 am
so like, good complexity but I wish it was easier to manage without constant, meaningless event spam
Post by: axiomsofdominion on February 11, 2022, 12:37:17 pm
It's definitely not easy in terms of complexity. And it can be very challenging to surmount the obstacles the rng (or yourself) can throw at you w/r to world generation/placement. But it can be easy in the sense that once you understand the mechanics well enough, you start to notice certain deficiencies in AI behaviour that can be exploited. It is in fact optimal to exploit them.
E.g. the AI can't properly deal with a contiguous frontline. If it has significant technological advantage, it can pose a threat. Otherwise it will not make and exploit breakthroughs - rather, it'll tend to gradually reposition in response to your actions, which in effect allows you to advance your troops up to and beyond the cities it is trying to defend. So, you see, this isn't a bug you're exploiting that you could justify not doing. It's more like you pretty much have to form a frontline to check the threat from flanking/raiding behaviour, at which point there's little threat left.
Or, another example, the independents (minors, animals, 'barbarians') will not invade their neighbours, unless it's another major power. Which means that once you begin to border an independent province, even with a single hex, they can (and will) decide to pour through that new border into your territory. Similarly, whether alien natives or majors begin to interact with you diplomatically (which often consists of significant/impossible demands and a threat of war) depends on having/not having a border. And since the major difficulty, once the front lines are secured, becomes supplying and reinforcing your ever growing armies, it is optimal for your scouts/raiders/armies to not claim the last line of hexes between whomever you're at war with and the neighbouring provinces so that you don't suddenly have to put another frontline up there. Or when you conquer/diplomatically annex a minor city, and all of their territory changes ownership to your regime, the up-to-this-point stable borders suddenly overflow with all the indie hordes because now it's a fair game apparently. So, you either deal with the unrealistic-looking and frustrating invasions, or you end up with unrealistic-looking and frustrating to create borders.
Having said that, I've had >a lot< of fun learning its various systems, building logistical networks, and even just generating new worlds.
Oh this is good stuff. Things I want to avoid in my own project development. Sounds like the AI is very hacked together.
Shadow Empire is real time yes? Or is the event spam so heavy it even sucks in turn based.
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 11, 2022, 12:47:55 pm
Myself, I kinda liked the events. I thought they brought some role-playing life to the dry wargaming stuff.
Post by: Mkok on February 11, 2022, 01:50:44 pm
There are also quite a bit of unique mechanics I have never seen in other games. While they do have its flaws as the game was made by a single developer, and it shows, but they are still pretty interesting. Personally I kinda like the stratagem system, which is basically kind of a card based system where if you want to do something you need a card for it, for example if you want to increase taxes you must have a card to play that increases taxes. It is not perfect, but it feels kinda nice, and if you really want to do something usually it is easy enough to get said card. The political system is unique as well, though I am not a huge fan of the current implementation as you basically have 2 options, either you pick event options to move the political scales in the way you want and ignore role-play completely (as some of the movements feel kinda arbitrary), or you role-play, which imho is more fun, but then your political scale is pretty much balanced which is notoptimal, and slightly breaks immersion if you want to for example roleplay some kind of specific political system. Another interesting part is that there is also a private economy in your nation, where some buildings are owned and built by private sector, so not everything is state owned, though the way it is implemented currently you cannot roleplay for example a nation where everything is state-controlled or fully private-owned, as you need to have both.
Post by: EuchreJack on February 11, 2022, 02:59:46 pm
Post by: a1s on February 11, 2022, 03:13:35 pm
Post by: axiomsofdominion on February 11, 2022, 03:38:17 pm
Someone needs to figure out how Paradox does AI. I'm not saying it's good, but they are running like 100 AIs in a real time game. Why does something like Making History need over a minute to do it's turns?
We know how they do it. If you read the files it becomes pretty obvious. There is a reason the AI is so quiescent in their games. Paradox AI spends most time doing nothing but you don't know cause you can't see it. They have tons of AIs so compared to a turn based game the map seems active and complex but it is not.
I don't know that a turn based game needs a minute or more typically, especially because they often have few AIs. But the Paradox model is awful.
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 11, 2022, 03:41:20 pm
But the Paradox model is awful.It looks pretty and is fun to spend time with. I don't care if it's dumb.
Post by: E. Albright on February 11, 2022, 03:51:28 pm
Note: There are actually two AIs. There is the dumb-as-bricks Quick Turn AI (which isn't that quick, but at least playable) and the Slower Turn AI (which runs so slow the game is unplayable). So, it could be that the Slower Turn AI might be marginally better, if you can find someone with the patience to see it in action.
3, actually. Normal is "Level 0", Slow is "Level 100", and Very Slow is "Level 250". The game I've been picking at for the last 2 months is on the 100 level, and the Major AI still has problems with maintaining a front and pursuing breakthroughs, but it's better than at 0. It doesn't feel as good as it was way back before the multiple settings were added, so I'm inclined to think that'd take 250. 100 doesn't seem dramatically slower than normal to me, but I wanna say 250 did? I don't feel like I have a good sense of what is or is not slow, though. I have a desktop that wasn't top tier but was pretty close 8y ago, but I also tend to play on max-sized worlds, so while I'm guessing slower AI is a bit more reasonable for me than for some, it's probably worse than how a lot of people play the game. I just let the turn run for however long it takes and do something else on the other monitor until it's done.
I probably should just end the current game and start a new one at 250 speed.
Post by: EuchreJack on February 11, 2022, 03:55:34 pm
I was initially skeptical, but the base unit returns to maximum strength if they have access to sufficient replacements.
My only real problem is that it generally means my border guards are more skilled than my base units. But since they're a small detachment that has to hold off the enemy, it's probably a good thing that they're experienced.
I didn't know there were 3 options. Eh, I usually prefer the game to go faster. As I said before, getting your own nation to work correctly is enough of a challenge for me. If the AI can just put bodies in front of me, it'll slow me down a bit just getting food, ammo, and fuel to the troops.Note: There are actually two AIs. There is the dumb-as-bricks Quick Turn AI (which isn't that quick, but at least playable) and the Slower Turn AI (which runs so slow the game is unplayable). So, it could be that the Slower Turn AI might be marginally better, if you can find someone with the patience to see it in action.
3, actually. Normal is "Level 0", Slow is "Level 100", and Very Slow is "Level 250". The game I've been picking at for the last 2 months is on the 100 level, and the Major AI still has problems with maintaining a front and pursuing breakthroughs, but it's better than at 0. It doesn't feel as good as it was way back before the multiple settings were added, so I'm inclined to think that'd take 250. 100 doesn't seem dramatically slower than normal to me, but I wanna say 250 did? I don't feel like I have a good sense of what is or is not slow, though. I have a desktop that wasn't top tier but was pretty close 8y ago, but I also tend to play on max-sized worlds, so while I'm guessing slower AI is a bit more reasonable for me than for some, it's probably worse than how a lot of people play the game. I just let the turn run for however long it takes and do something else on the other monitor until it's done.
Game really should be called Logistic Empire.
Post by: E. Albright on February 11, 2022, 04:24:08 pm
Admittedly, since I realized I could manually reinforce militia that get depleted, I tend to just use militia as border patrols and/or bug hunters. They actually feature pretty heavily in my regular offensives too. Being able to update the quality and replace casualties in my militia forces pretty drastically reduced my impetus to make formal detachments, though I'll usually make one or two of the aforementioned dragoon/heavy recon battalions early on and keep them rolling for the whole game.
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 11, 2022, 04:31:12 pm
Maybe elaborate on that manual reinforcement, as I don't think I remember being able to do that.
Post by: E. Albright on February 11, 2022, 05:00:18 pm
It's easiest to do this at the SHQ b/c then you don't have to worry about dropping the source unit under 3 Power (which isn't permitted unless you transfer the whole unit into the target unit and thus wipe out the source unit). However, that requires you to cycle your militia back from the front manually. I generally have enough log points to do strategic moves for that, though, and it feels worth the trouble to keep my militia strong and relevant for the whole game.
---
I'm kinda proud of my SHQ commander this game. I've had better ones from a raw potential standpoint - she's only cap III - but at turn 126 I don't think I've ever seen quite so overwrought a commander in practice:
Spoiler: Elisa Xenophore, CDR 1SHQ (click to show/hide)
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 11, 2022, 05:03:35 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on February 11, 2022, 05:12:06 pm
Post by: E. Albright on February 11, 2022, 05:21:19 pm
EJ, I'm not sure what you mean about obsolete infantry. They directly upgrade rather than going through the "Replace" process armor [or bikes, jetpacks, or quad machineguns, etc.] needs to deal with. If you want to keep them modern, you can - there's no units in your regular forces you can't. You can even do that with GR units as long as you didn't send them to the militia.
Post by: axiomsofdominion on February 11, 2022, 07:18:35 pm
But the Paradox model is awful.It looks pretty and is fun to spend time with. I don't care if it's dumb.
The Paradox AI looks pretty? Erm. Can you see the Ai somehow?
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 11, 2022, 07:54:55 pm
Post by: axiomsofdominion on February 11, 2022, 08:10:08 pm
The game. The game looks pretty. ::)
Okay sure, looks great. Just the line you quoted was about the AI so I didn't understand.
Post by: Mkok on February 12, 2022, 06:28:24 am
As for the AI options in shadow empire, back when there were only 2 options, both of them had the issue with the AI. I think the third option was added as a compromise between those two, so I reckon even the level 250 AI would have this issue. I tested with the level 100 AI and it had the issue, though the game was at least playable with acceptable turn times.
Post by: axiomsofdominion on February 12, 2022, 11:19:34 am
Paradox AI is terrible, but it is enough to make the games fun and runnable. I reckon anything decent would take too much CPU to be fun with current computers. If I have to wait 10 minutes for a turn to process and there is nothing to do during those 10 minutes I aint playing your game.
As for the AI options in shadow empire, back when there were only 2 options, both of them had the issue with the AI. I think the third option was added as a compromise between those two, so I reckon even the level 250 AI would have this issue. I tested with the level 100 AI and it had the issue, though the game was at least playable with acceptable turn times.
A proper turn based AI could handle something like EU4 pretty easily. Could it be 10 times as good? We'll well soon find out.
Post by: E. Albright on February 25, 2022, 10:43:10 pm
Quote
-AI work done on quality of tactical level movements.
-AI work done on reducing the tendency of giving ground in general.
-AI work done of making super aggressive regimes less likely to completely overextend
-AI work done on making the AI more likely to invest more in its current military than in its future military (by economic expansion) if threatened a lot.
-AI work done on making the AI wait a bit longer before constructing bigger units instead of more units.
-AI work done on reducing buying of Flak gun units/replacements at some points. And in general stop buying (much) replacements of troops we have less need of.
-AI stops playing some (often) stupid Stratagems on its OHQs
-AI improved OOB raising order (less chance to stay stuck in infantry formations only)
-AI improvements to moving to correct part of a frontArea
-AI improvements with entrenchment
-AI improvements with encircled troops
Post by: EuchreJack on February 26, 2022, 01:51:32 am
Nope. One of them went Cold. The two AI nations were at war, so I jumped on the Cold One with great relations.
...I'm probably going to call this one a loss.
Post by: Mkok on February 26, 2022, 08:54:13 am
Post by: EuchreJack on February 26, 2022, 09:38:09 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on February 26, 2022, 10:24:17 am
Post by: E. Albright on February 27, 2022, 01:14:07 am
Now, having said all that, from time to time in the past I'd get good fights out of minor regimes, and I've yet to see a major, but so far this feels different...
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 02, 2022, 05:37:29 pm
Though so far I can still gradually push the frontline with little actual combat, just by repositioning.
Q: anyone understands what the 'retreat at x% losses' in certain posture means, exactly? I can't figure out if it's a buff or debuff. Like, is it lose the percentage as extra casualties if retreating, or maybe reduce losses to the percentage when retreating?
Post by: Knave on March 02, 2022, 09:31:07 pm
Post by: E. Albright on March 02, 2022, 11:41:23 pm
(Postures wouldn't directly prevent panic retreats - the best you could hope for there is ones that raise morale.)
[Edit: Checking in a game, Recon in Force sets orderly retreat to 20% and Hold the Line is 80%, so the default is probably... 40-60%? I'd assume 50%]
Post by: Karlito on March 03, 2022, 09:31:12 am
I agree that there's some vague feeling of being different. Maybe a bit more proactive in mounting assaults? Not sure if it's not just what I want to see.In Vic's other wargame titles, this number is something you could just set- and whether you want it low or high depends on the circumstances. Usually when you order an assault on a fortified position, you'd rather have your units accept a high number of casualties to take the objective, but when defending, you might want them to give ground rather than their lives (but maybe if you're defending a river crossing or a critical city you'd rather the opposite).
Though so far I can still gradually push the frontline with little actual combat, just by repositioning.
Q: anyone understands what the 'retreat at x% losses' in certain posture means, exactly? I can't figure out if it's a buff or debuff. Like, is it lose the percentage as extra casualties if retreating, or maybe reduce losses to the percentage when retreating?
Post by: Il Palazzo on March 03, 2022, 10:37:57 am
Post by: EuchreJack on March 04, 2022, 02:49:30 am
For fun, Here is a link to my game (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g5fQkM6NX1ewLgXCiQv-vJsfKCYExjZN/view?usp=sharing)
Post by: Radsoc on April 24, 2022, 03:00:04 pm
However, I don't see AI helicopters or planes (yet).
Post by: axiomsofdominion on April 24, 2022, 03:22:38 pm
Picked it up some time ago, but finally got around to playing it as part of reducing the backlog. The game is like a mix of Warlords 2, Revolution under Siege and Conquest of Elysium. The progression is superb. AI is not bad. It tries to hit at logistics and does outflank, surround units in reckless advances. AI time can be increased too, and the turn time is pretty long on standard even on 5950X.
However, I don't see AI helicopters or planes (yet).
How long would you say is a long turn time? A minute for the computer? Longer? Shorter?
Post by: EuchreJack on April 24, 2022, 03:30:55 pm
I can probably accept a turn that takes up to 60 seconds.
Post by: E. Albright on April 24, 2022, 04:19:18 pm
However, I don't see AI helicopters or planes (yet).
IIRC, each major makes an initial decision to either make aircraft or ignore them in favor of nothing but AA countermeasures. I'm tempted to say it favors the latter.
Post by: axiomsofdominion on April 24, 2022, 04:38:55 pm
Anything more than a minute feels like forever.
I can probably accept a turn that takes up to 60 seconds.
I've always been curious if there was a way to let the player keep doing read only stuff during the AI turns. I think that would help people deal with longer times. I agree though that a minute or so is the limit for an enjoyable experience. Which is why I can't understand people who do PBEM and other stuff, like in Illwinter games.
Post by: Salmeuk on April 24, 2022, 09:18:43 pm
Anything more than a minute feels like forever.
I can probably accept a turn that takes up to 60 seconds.
I've always been curious if there was a way to let the player keep doing read only stuff during the AI turns. I think that would help people deal with longer times. I agree though that a minute or so is the limit for an enjoyable experience. Which is why I can't understand people who do PBEM and other stuff, like in Illwinter games.
this is a lovely idea, if you could say catch up with some of the bookkeeping while the A.I. took their turns. Setting up moves to then deploy once the game is finished with the calculations of the previous turn.
so I'm not the only one with rather lengthy and un-rewarding load times in this game? I suppose I am playing on planets that are large. It's frustrating when you cannot click through turns in a game, rapidly. It cheapens the experience of a turn based game when individual turns feel irrelevant compared to, say, chunks of 10 turns. But for many reasons it is tough to shift that around. Looking at Aurora 4x, with the choice of time segements as opposed to traditional single-turns, you can see the challenges of implementing such a granular system.
Post by: axiomsofdominion on April 24, 2022, 09:45:13 pm
There are social sim actions, strategy actions, management actions, and rpg actions, plus in rare cases adventuring or magical ability actions. The idea is to smooth things out so each turn has at least a few important decisions and then sometimes you do relationship upkeep actions or w/e.
With games like Civ and somewhat SE and also with Paradox games, though is is long stretches of speed 5 rather than empty turns, I feel like you are so often in the position of waiting for "yearly" actions like a new building during the pre-modern era or training an infantry unit properly, or 10 years of research on a new tech or w/e. Even on "significant" turns you are often doing maybe 1 or 2 major actions which then require multi turn waits. Usually this is filled with workers or military units doing pretty boring mindless actions. Especially worker units. Talk about alienation from labor jeez. It just doesn't feel good. Not only do characters add some framework for historical events but they add "immediate", "personal", "human-scale" actions for players. A worker unit building a railroad of obviously not "John Henry" doing it all alone, it is a large corp of faceless mooks represented by a boardgame style "token".
I'm not sure how much a truly character centered method of making turns feel meaningful on average could be transfered to something like SE but I think there's a decent amount you can do.
My one criticism of Shadows Of Forbidden Gods is how often you literally mash end turn 10 times doing absolutely nothing. And Shadow Empires improves on that somewhat since unlike SoFG you can have more than 5 "entities" to manage/control but you still end up with the Civ-esque dead turn issue.
For me "one more turn" always seemed a bit empty as an advertisement for 4X games because it was really like "in only 10 more turns I'll get to an interesting turn.
Post by: Radsoc on April 24, 2022, 11:57:36 pm
Post by: Culise on April 26, 2022, 12:11:38 am
Interesting. I wonder if the decision is weighted based on the planet's overall characteristics: air design is harder when you have lower atmospheric pressure, higher gravity/bigger maps, or both. If it is, and if people regularly play on larger maps (as I do) or end up with relatively sparse atmosphere in the pre-game random generation, that might also play into how much they see AI air units - the AI might be looking at it and deciding it's just not cost-effective enough on this planet.However, I don't see AI helicopters or planes (yet).
IIRC, each major makes an initial decision to either make aircraft or ignore them in favor of nothing but AA countermeasures. I'm tempted to say it favors the latter.
Post by: E. Albright on April 26, 2022, 09:07:16 am
Post by: EuchreJack on April 26, 2022, 05:25:16 pm
Anything more than a minute feels like forever.
I can probably accept a turn that takes up to 60 seconds.
I've always been curious if there was a way to let the player keep doing read only stuff during the AI turns. I think that would help people deal with longer times. I agree though that a minute or so is the limit for an enjoyable experience. Which is why I can't understand people who do PBEM and other stuff, like in Illwinter games.
this is a lovely idea, if you could say catch up with some of the bookkeeping while the A.I. took their turns. Setting up moves to then deploy once the game is finished with the calculations of the previous turn.
so I'm not the only one with rather lengthy and un-rewarding load times in this game? I suppose I am playing on planets that are large. It's frustrating when you cannot click through turns in a game, rapidly. It cheapens the experience of a turn based game when individual turns feel irrelevant compared to, say, chunks of 10 turns. But for many reasons it is tough to shift that around. Looking at Aurora 4x, with the choice of time segements as opposed to traditional single-turns, you can see the challenges of implementing such a granular system.
...technically, you can read the reports as the turn processes (so in a turn with 3 battles, you can read about the first 2 while the third processes).
If you don't mind risking the game breaking down on you mid-turn, which it will definitely do.
Post by: Vivalas on May 30, 2022, 02:57:14 pm
I'm obviously very grateful, it's a great game and he could have stopped before air forces and I would have still loved it, but i can't help but think it's a very strange design decision. I mean he's basically implementing naval combat at this point, but just keeping it out of the direct hands of the players, if I understand correctly.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 30, 2022, 03:15:07 pm
Post by: Karlito on May 30, 2022, 03:31:22 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on May 30, 2022, 03:38:50 pm
Post by: LoSboccacc on June 04, 2022, 05:36:40 am
It's not out yet, but there have been some posts on his blog (https://www.vrdesigns.net/).
What a weird decision, you get to tell which soldier goes in combat with boots tied and whom not, but everything sea is maritime guilds
Post by: ( Tchey ) on June 09, 2022, 10:20:05 am
I don’t like if sea (or air) is simply another land but more wet.
Post by: E. Albright on August 22, 2022, 07:05:44 pm
(Aesthetically, it's cloud forests with a mostly-cherry-blossom color palate and red oceans.)
https://easyupload.io/caykt5
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 25, 2022, 11:22:32 am
I.e. can you help train your leaders by giving them tasks, or do they improve all by themselves in the relevant skills just by the virtue of being assigned a position?
Post by: E. Albright on August 25, 2022, 02:56:45 pm
Quote from: SE manual pp. 250-251
Experience Points (XP)
When you first meet a Leader, he or she will already have some Experience Points. These are the points that have been spent on his or her Skills. As your Leaders are involved in decisions, combat or just doing their regular work their XP will go up. New XP will be spent on improving Skill Levels. The Skills the Leader will improve with these points will usually be the ones he has been using. Advisors continue earning XP, but normally less than the Leader they are embedded with. In Combat, successful attacks or successfully holding a Hex will give more XP than failed offensives and losing Hexes to enemy attack.
SHQ Commanders will benefit less than OHQ from XP gain through Combat on a Combat-per-Combat basis, but once you’ll have a big army with lots of OHQs the SHQ Commander will be involved in many more battles than each of the OHQ Commanders and it is highly probable your SHQ Commander will quickly become very experienced. Other XP sources include Skill Rolls.
So yes, doing things gets them XP, and if you want to push them in a direction, making them take particular skill rolls will encourage them to use those skills. As such, they'll usually work on the skills they take checks on every turn b/c of their jobs, and if not that, then whatever "class" skills they have (which can be found by looking at the part of their history from before they joined you).
(No clear answer on whether non-combat leaders do better when they succeed vs. fail, but signs point to yes. This would be pretty easy to test with some quick savescumming, though...)
Post by: Karlito on August 25, 2022, 04:52:34 pm
Post by: Salmeuk on September 20, 2022, 10:19:01 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: E. Albright on September 21, 2022, 02:14:40 am
These are the most notable messy things crawling/leaping/flying around my current game. I kinda suspect there's some varieties of the last species I haven't seen given how far into the game I was before I saw the dragons. None of these are nice, but Absorption & Reflexor is a nasty combo on the Rats and Ferrets: fair chance to ignore attacks less than their HP, but then also have a 45% or 30% chance to avoid deathblows...
Spoiler: So many fire-breathing worms (click to show/hide)
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 21, 2022, 03:54:38 am
Post by: E. Albright on September 21, 2022, 02:41:27 pm
Spoiler: Ouch... just... ouch (click to show/hide)
[Edit: I probably should have included the Longbeasts as well; fixed. They look so innocent and harmless until you consider what 8 attacks per round and Toxin V means. I lost a full battalion in one round to these things too...]
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 21, 2022, 02:43:38 pm
Post by: E. Albright on September 21, 2022, 03:09:51 pm
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RFjDe1FFzaKpL4zWKIwwW39T2Kq5iMdS/view?usp=sharing
Post by: Dostoevsky on September 21, 2022, 04:05:57 pm
Example 1 (https://www.reddit.com/r/ShadowEmpireGame/comments/nytrr7/ive_memed_up_the_most_hilarious_death_world_for_a/)
Example 2 - 82 meters! (https://www.reddit.com/r/ShadowEmpireGame/comments/o2n810/remember_that_hell_world_with_those_super/)
Example 3 - behold, Burrower Cow (https://www.reddit.com/r/ShadowEmpireGame/comments/oc5ieo/forget_evasion_puma_the_most_deadliest_wildlife/)
Some folks on the discord tried to figure out what was key, and found that the main aspects were length of evolution and planet class (not Siwa, mainly?), while game difficulty has an affect on feats the kaiju may have.
Post by: E. Albright on September 21, 2022, 05:04:01 pm
I'm curious what exactly they decided. I basically never roll Siwa and I have trouble getting over teens for fauna size.
(I have a vague memory of rolling a 44m squid before we had creature variants. That's the nastiest I ever saw, but its feats were probably a lot less awful b/c back then I didn't play on the harder levels.)
Post by: Dostoevsky on September 21, 2022, 05:19:48 pm
Edit: I picked a 5B year medusa with a modest atmosphere and could relatively consistently roll 20+m, with a mid-30s (and sentients!) high.
Post by: E. Albright on September 22, 2022, 01:11:43 am
I generated some Medusa planets and got a...43m apex predator, I think? plus 25m lizardmen, but the start zone was entirely surrounded by humans, sentinels, and spiders, so I have no idea what they look like and got tired of playing after 15 fairly uninteresting turns.
Post by: Dostoevsky on September 22, 2022, 09:15:26 am
Post by: E. Albright on September 22, 2022, 03:59:16 pm
Spoiler: Swimmer Rhinos in general (click to show/hide)
deserved to be immortalized by an art AI. I probably could have done better given more time, but here's a quick effort:
Spoiler: One Swimmer Rhino in particular (click to show/hide)
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 22, 2022, 04:18:24 pm
Or, maybe just the thread for now - I'm not sure how many players we've got yet.
If you'd rather have me do it, that'll have to wait until the weekend or thereabouts.
Post by: E. Albright on September 22, 2022, 05:00:40 pm
Post by: E. Albright on September 22, 2022, 09:54:52 pm
The most reliable way was to pick Medusa class and look for the long evolution length, but even then getting kaiju was quite rare. While the first reddit post there mentions air density, they couldn't find a strong correlation
Given the difference b/tw 0.6-0.8g with 350mbar planets (mostly 7-15m, with 40m as a wild outlier) and 0.5g with 660mbar (mostly 20-40m, with a 67m that I generated showing up after maybe 20 re-rolls), I'd say if anything you want as dense an atmosphere as possible with as low gravity as possible. That would also track with my understanding of relevant physics and physiology. Note that all of these were 5b+ age, so I don't think that was making a difference.
Note as well that 0.5g + 660mbar is enough for your starting recon plane to go 12 hexes.
The downside of this is that you'd either need smaller planets or a lot lower crust density (i.e., worse mineral content)...
Post by: Dostoevsky on September 23, 2022, 12:17:11 am
The discord folks' research found that air density didn't make a difference, though as you say high air density and low gravity would make sense.
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 23, 2022, 09:43:31 am
Spoiler: what's this little herd of grazers next to my capital? (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: hello (click to show/hide)
Post by: Salmeuk on September 23, 2022, 02:10:06 pm
I'm starting to think its not that these creatures are gigantic, its just that us survivors are really, really small. stunted after decades of war, or something.
Post by: Journier on September 25, 2022, 08:00:30 am
Heey. I've just rolled an 86m kaiju world.Infantry attack odds 1:38500. Mhmmyeah.Spoiler:
[spoiler=hello (click to show/hide)
So your telling me theres a chance...
Post by: Salmeuk on September 28, 2022, 08:13:12 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on September 28, 2022, 11:18:12 pm
I imagine you could take an Aurora 4x game, pick out one of your frontier planets, and attempt to recreate it in Shadow Empire. Proceed to play through a game of Shadow Empire. The results could then be translated back into Aurora. .
I've thought about that, but the scale is off.
A typical Aurora homeworld has 100 million people on it. A typical Shadow Empire has 2-3 million people on it.
I don't believe there is enough population growth in Shadow Empire to get to expected Aurora levels, but I'd be happy to be wrong.
Post by: Dostoevsky on September 29, 2022, 04:40:43 pm
Post by: E. Albright on September 29, 2022, 05:06:22 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 12, 2022, 08:15:36 am
Another tech I don't understand is robotisation - do you need to do something with it, or is it automatic reduction in workforce requirements? I wasn't paying close enough attention to notice, if that's the case.
(also, I've found a kaiju variant with over 10k health)
Post by: E. Albright on October 12, 2022, 01:59:54 pm
Basically, they appear to be designed as a rock-paper-scissor sidegrade, like a lot of the high-end tech. At the same time, they have different mechanics and don't get enough play to clarify if they're bugged/balanced...
Automation (and Fusion Plants, and Mass Food Pool) applies automatically. I can't remember if they reduce workforce or increase output (b/c the same number of workers can now do more).
Post by: Karlito on October 12, 2022, 02:02:29 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 12, 2022, 02:02:40 pm
Post by: E. Albright on October 12, 2022, 08:23:09 pm
(also, I've found a kaiju variant with over 10k health)
Do you have a screenie of this abomination?
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 12, 2022, 08:28:40 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Karlito on October 14, 2022, 07:47:59 pm
Depends on the price point, but I'm not sure I'll be in a rush to pick this one up.
Post by: E. Albright on October 14, 2022, 07:55:14 pm
...and now having read the announcement, yeah, I'll be waiting to see the price point before I decide if I want this...
Post by: Karlito on October 14, 2022, 07:59:40 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 03, 2022, 06:01:19 pm
Post by: Karlito on November 03, 2022, 06:10:44 pm
EDIT: My own math says that the Mining Techniques Applied Research is giving a % bonus to my metal mines apparently equal to it's level of research.
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 03, 2022, 06:28:13 pm
EDIT: My own math says that the Mining Techniques Applied Research is giving a % bonus to my metal mines apparently equal to it's level of research.Where do you see this applied? The amount delivered from zones is higher? Or the turn-initial stocks are higher?
(like, the most important part here is - does it drain the deposits faster, or is the increase 'magical', so to speak)
Post by: E. Albright on November 03, 2022, 06:44:28 pm
My rare metal mine is asset lvl 2, so 150 ideal output. It's a quality 7 vein, so that's -20%. Governor bonuses are 28%. Mining Techniques is 35%. That mess comes out to 143% if we combine bonuses before applying them, which the manual section on Admin Strain suggests is how Vic rolls. This would make me expect an output of 215. W/o the linear tech, I'd expect 162. I'm getting 207. I worked out another mine, and it was getting 12 more output than I'd expect from the linear tech plus listed stuff. So while there's a little black box calculation, it's not a lot, and pretty much has to include the tech.
I'd assume anything boosting mineral output can't net you more than the deposit has. Fuel Mix Optimization suggests that's not true for fuel, though. If I remember next turn I'll check if my rare deposit is 1530 or 1575...
(You're not looking at recycling, are you? IDK if it applies there. I'll check.)
[Okay, it looks like it applies to metal and rare metal from recycling, but not fuel (which might benefit from FMO, but my FMO is 0)]
Post by: Karlito on November 03, 2022, 06:59:08 pm
On the resource being output, though the numbers are only approximate.
My rare metal mine is asset lvl 2, so 150 ideal output. It's a quality 7 vein, so that's -20%. Governor bonuses are 28%. Mining Techniques is 35%. That mess comes out to 143% if we combine bonuses before applying them, which the manual section on Admin Strain suggests is how Vic rolls. This would make me expect an output of 215. W/o the linear tech, I'd expect 162. I'm getting 207.
I think they're applied multiplicatively. 150 * .8 * 1.28 * 1.35 = 207 exactly (possibly with some rounding at each step which could cause smaller differences)
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 03, 2022, 07:02:02 pm
Post by: Vivalas on November 04, 2022, 09:15:24 am
And yeah I'll probably be waiting on it. It sounds like all the framework is there to give the player control of naval forces, just that he's going with MTH as a sort of different spin on naval stuff. Which honestly sounds pretty interesting, but I hope it's also optional or you cam build naval forces on your own and try to compete or use them for niche applications.
Like in one of my past saves where there was a huge inland sea in my territory and I would have loved to just build barges to cross it and carry logistics capacity and build cities all around it without having to stretch my logistics thin with a huge road system. Things like that. And immersion is lost if we have huge ocean navies and cam build laser weaponry but not simple barges to cross bodies of water for logistics.
And on the subject of logistics hopefully rivers get looked at as an alternative transportation method. Rivers have historically been incredibly useful for transportation.
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 04, 2022, 09:22:38 am
Post by: Knave on November 04, 2022, 09:35:41 am
I imagine someone like DasTactic will be able to give it a spin before launch to give his thoughts.
Post by: E. Albright on November 04, 2022, 02:13:29 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 05, 2022, 12:18:59 pm
Post by: Dostoevsky on November 05, 2022, 12:40:23 pm
The way it's described, it sounds like the Guild of Navigators from Dune. Only while it made sense in the vastness of space, you really don't need to be a monopolistic mutated clairvoyant mega-junkie to navigate a pond. So it's going to feel a bit odd.
Makes me think of the train monks from Girl Genius.
Post by: Karlito on November 05, 2022, 01:15:52 pm
How's the general perception on artillery barrage before attack vs sending the same artillery with an attack? I have always done the former, but I'm wondering if it's perhaps not actually sub-optimal.
There's a hefty attack penalty on the ranged attacks so generally I think its better to have the regular artillery pieces in the battle.
Post by: Nirur Torir on November 05, 2022, 06:25:19 pm
Save scumming I've done in the past to capture a city on the last turn before a quest expired showed a small independent unit of artillery bombarding being able to reduce average entrenchment from ~100 to ~50.
I also noticed that having enough recon to see how many units your fighting is very useful for regular combats. In combat it goes up faster with more units nearby, even if they're not fighting. I think recon vehicles and light tanks make that go up faster.
I would expect blind artillery bombardments into poor recon hexes to be worth less than mixing them with the assault, but very helpful against entrenched and well scouted enemies.
Post by: E. Albright on November 05, 2022, 06:45:36 pm
Separate barrages always burn 10 rounds of ammo, and will most likely have the enemy do an orderly retreat (and thus be unable to be further hit) before those 10 rounds are up. OTOH, there's only risk of counterattack if there's enemy artillery. When you attack alongside the rest of the force, the artillery's damage to units (either in the form of casualties, morale, or readiness [or entrechment, as Nirur pointed out and I'd forgotten]) will not be front-loaded, so the defenders will be stronger. Additionally, if defender units manage a breakthrough, artillery can no longer target those units, but the guns suffer a -66% HP penalty against their now-close-combat attacks. Even w/o breakthroughs, any attacks they suffer in non-ranged combat will be against gun HP -33% - basically, they're extra vulnerable in any non-ranged combat, and the closer it gets, the worse they are.
[Oh. And if the artillery makes a separate attack, they don't count against the Unit Stack limit for attack penalties for over-concentrating your forces.]
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 05, 2022, 06:55:08 pm
Post by: E. Albright on November 05, 2022, 07:02:07 pm
Post by: Journier on November 05, 2022, 09:56:44 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 07, 2022, 06:24:03 pm
The quad machine guns. Are there any downsides to using them over regular machine guns? Apart from the extra cost and maybe ammo consumption. Do they move slower? Do they have some special modifiers? I can't see anything in the manual.
Post by: Karlito on November 07, 2022, 06:28:57 pm
Post by: E. Albright on November 07, 2022, 11:36:48 pm
Their on-foot movement is exactly the same as regular MGs. However (and this is contrary what you see when you open the info screen on an individual subunit, but not what you see on the design tab of the model list page), they weigh a lot more than regular MGs; as such, it takes more log points when you ship or reinforce (or replace/upgrade) units with them. Looking at what's listed during a strategic move for a couple of newly-formed units, the difference is 72 QMG vs. 23 MG. Those don't match the detail numbers, and frankly feel like voodoo (esp. since I can get different ratios elsewhere to do moves), but that's probably more to do with strat move voodoo than these two things in particular; my experience is definitely that QMGs take more log points to move around even if they're not slower on foot*.
[Also note that it lists the same cost in log points to raise a remote formation of QMG vs. one of MG. The UI doesn't seem to know WTH is going on with them and their weight.]
*My brain is telling me they're slower, but a quick test tells me my brain is wrong.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 09, 2022, 01:42:56 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 10, 2022, 01:11:19 pm
Which brings about a question - does the mining robotization tech affect demetalization or not?
And while I'm at it - do the robotization techs affect private industries too?
Post by: E. Albright on November 10, 2022, 04:01:40 pm
Private industry (and mining), OTOH, does benefit from robotization tech.
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 23, 2022, 04:35:58 am
Private industry (and mining), OTOH, does benefit from robotization tech.Turns out private industry doesn't actually benefit. Don't know about mining.
On the other hand, heavy (and high-tech too, most likely) industry is affected. Something I didn't quite internalize before.
Post by: Karlito on November 23, 2022, 10:56:20 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 25, 2022, 10:30:18 am
Post by: E. Albright on November 25, 2022, 10:52:18 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 29, 2022, 07:46:33 pm
Post by: E. Albright on November 30, 2022, 01:30:44 am
On the plus side, you can get rather high design numbers, and can thus start with aircraft that are as good or better than well-refined models in other fields.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 30, 2022, 11:14:16 am
Post by: Karlito on November 30, 2022, 06:01:47 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 04, 2022, 09:17:18 am
The manual says missile launchers can have up to 7 range. The launcher optimisation linear applies some non-obvious scaling to the base range of four.
The question is: what levels of the linear are needed for each range increase?
I've found some discussion on Steam forums suggesting the calculation involves halving the linear level and applying this as a percentage increase - but that can't be right, as the max missile range this way would be only 6.
How does this work?
Post by: E. Albright on December 04, 2022, 03:57:41 pm
Spoiler: Example from a rather advanced game (72% LO) (click to show/hide)
In the same game, my Heavy SAM has 5 with 82%. My suspicion based on that is that the bonus is ((LO/2)*Base), rounded down. That would also track with my Atomics in the current game having base of 4 + 0 for 46%.
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 04, 2022, 04:17:13 pm
So it's actually possible to pull off a 10-range launcher, with plasma and at least 86% optimisation?
Post by: E. Albright on December 04, 2022, 04:24:52 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 08, 2022, 11:21:44 am
Does this enable a model that can replace infantry, or - much like quad MGs and regular MGs - it merely occupies the same slot in a formation?
Or is that a completely separate mechanic of some sort?
Post by: E. Albright on December 08, 2022, 11:27:08 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 10, 2022, 05:15:33 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 10, 2022, 05:49:29 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 10, 2022, 05:52:59 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on January 07, 2023, 08:46:49 pm
Wish I had a steam version. This is kinda why I prefer to buy all my games on Steam...
Post by: Il Palazzo on January 07, 2023, 09:19:23 pm
Also, have you bought this from the Matrix website? There should be a Steam activation key with the purchase.
Post by: E. Albright on January 07, 2023, 10:25:00 pm
Post by: E. Albright on March 30, 2023, 07:05:52 pm
The official DLC feature list is as follows:
- Gaia Planet Class now available
- Thalassa Planet Class now available
- Proteus Planet Class now available
- Fontus Planet Class now available
- Maritime Trade House (MTH) mechanics
- MTH Stock-trading, Policy Meetings, Dividends & Auctions
- MTH Transport, Explore and Makeshift Port Contracts
- MTH Naval warfare for sea supremacy
- Naval logistical points allow amphibious invasions and transfers
- Note that the player does not control any naval units and all maritime action is simulated through the MTHs
Left unmentioned in the formal press release are:
- Artica Planet Class now available
- Tethys Planet Class now available
- Hydroid Planet Class now available
- Minor & Indy pirates and marauders
- SEA CRITTERS
Spoiler: SEA CRITTERS!!! (click to show/hide)
To break down those new planet types:
Gaia Planet: Earth-like in terms of geography and atmosphere/biosphere. Pangaea-type situations aren't uncommon, but the results can be varied. 55-75% ocean, maybe?
Thalassa Planet: SO much water. Archipelagos and small islands abound. Few proper continents. 80%+ ocean.
Proteus Planet: Fairly dry and frankly weird planets. Super-continents abound, and there's little rain despite the oceans. 30-50% ocean.
Fontus Planet: Something b/tw Thalassa and Proteus. Wet with lots of rain and almost always has life. 50-75% ocean, maybe?
Artica Planet: Gaia, but COLD. There's almost certainly going to be ice caps which will probably span the globe, so land bridges are more-or-less assured.
Tethys Planet: Warm with fragmented tectonics. These are a mess. Land and water are balanced, but landmasses will be small.
Hydroid Planet(oid): So you wanted a planetoid, but with atmosphere and life? Here ya go. These will be 3by or younger.
Unclassified Planets: These can use DLC features. They may or may not have proper oceans, though, and if they don't, you'll not see much. They may also start w/o MTHs.
MTHs are, as Il Palazzo guessed when the DLC was announced, very Dune-Navigator's-Guild-esque, albeit without a monopoly (although if they're aggressive enough, they may try to change that). The individual personality and capability of MTHs vary a bit; they can change a bit if their leadership changes, but there's also things that'll remain the same. They're all greedy and mercantile, though. Commercial profiles are easier to maintain in the DLC than normal, and MTHs help keep material supplies in the market more stable than they otherwise might be.
Sea critters and marauders will be the bane of your REMFs' existence. The only preemptive measure you can take is getting on the good side of the MTH who rules your coastal ocean; otherwise, you just need to keep some troops back along your coasts to discourage critters and/or repel invaders. This goes double if you're at war with majors.
Anyway, while I could go on, that's probably enough rambling. I was in the closed beta, so I'm already fairly familiar with the features and can answer any specific questions people might have... :)
Post by: EuchreJack on March 30, 2023, 09:47:16 pm
Also note: You save a buck off the DLC if you already own the base game. While not much, it's a nice thought.
Post by: E. Albright on March 30, 2023, 10:09:15 pm
Post by: Dostoevsky on March 30, 2023, 10:22:56 pm
- Note that in addition to the DLC there was a fairly substantial 1.2 update to the game, largely focused on making the AI better and faster but also making some changes on the margins. Also fleshes out the trader system under the hood (now "Land Traders") to function more organically.
Perhaps most importantly, the manual has been updated (!) to 1.2. This is one of those games where the manual is actually a good reference, so getting a proper update there is nice.
- SEA CRITTERS
Spoiler: SEA CRITTERS!!! (click to show/hide)
So given the REMF reference, sea critters will wander onto land to cause issues?
Post by: E. Albright on March 30, 2023, 10:38:43 pm
Post by: E. Albright on March 31, 2023, 07:18:06 am
Spoiler: Unclassified, 78% Ocean (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Gaia, 65% Ocean (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Artica, 58% Ocean (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Proteus, 35% Ocean (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Fontus, 67% Ocean (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Thalassa, 83% Ocean (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Tethys, 72% Ocean (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Hydroid, 58% Ocean (click to show/hide)
Post by: EuchreJack on March 31, 2023, 09:06:01 pm
Post by: E. Albright on April 01, 2023, 02:24:55 am
Post by: Dostoevsky on April 01, 2023, 01:51:52 pm
Post by: Nelia Hawk on April 01, 2023, 04:10:48 pm
The color gradients and shading make it look like the brown ocean is actually some sort of massive dirt mesa or Rimworld-esque mountainous area. Took me a while to convince myself it was an ocean.
weird that its a different color on the minimap.
or that the minimap doesnt color the planet colors then?
Post by: EuchreJack on April 01, 2023, 06:34:14 pm
Brown ocean. Hadn't thought of that.The color gradients and shading make it look like the brown ocean is actually some sort of massive dirt mesa or Rimworld-esque mountainous area. Took me a while to convince myself it was an ocean.
weird that its a different color on the minimap.
or that the minimap doesnt color the planet colors then?
Post by: E. Albright on April 01, 2023, 08:10:02 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on April 01, 2023, 09:16:55 pm
Post by: E. Albright on April 01, 2023, 10:20:51 pm
Post by: E. Albright on April 02, 2023, 08:11:17 pm
Spoiler: Polymer Pumas, man... (click to show/hide)
Post by: Lidku on April 05, 2023, 04:38:56 am
Post by: E. Albright on April 05, 2023, 11:20:24 am
Post by: Knave on April 06, 2023, 09:09:47 am
This (huge) AAR between 2 players also gives a long term overview of how a multiplayer slugfest can turn out. It's a long but fun read when you have spare time: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GuRW1RNXJmk-mm8QmOx8VEO67QhKINbr-CEY9-zU9Q4/edit#heading=h.j2add08odjbs (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GuRW1RNXJmk-mm8QmOx8VEO67QhKINbr-CEY9-zU9Q4/edit#heading=h.j2add08odjbs)
Post by: EuchreJack on April 06, 2023, 10:25:52 am
Post by: Salmeuk on April 08, 2023, 10:55:47 pm
new maps are interesting. maritime guild fits into the gameplay better than I expected. I suppose.. simulating all of the compounding complexities of a realistic unit-based navy WITHOUT also influencing the rest of the game so much that finely-balanced features are broken would have proved too difficult. the logistics calculations would have broken my computer I'm sure
Post by: E. Albright on April 09, 2023, 12:37:00 am
Post by: E. Albright on July 30, 2023, 10:04:02 am
Spoiler: Changelist 1.21i (#186) (click to show/hide)
Post by: EuchreJack on July 30, 2023, 04:49:20 pm
Seemed kinda stupid that wasn't a thing.
Post by: Il Palazzo on July 30, 2023, 04:57:53 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on July 30, 2023, 09:09:23 pm
Post by: E. Albright on July 31, 2023, 01:07:03 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 24, 2023, 09:28:03 am
Anyway. Just bought Oceania, and am trying to get used to the new realities. For example, is there any way to prevent AI majors from making beachheads everywhere on my island - other than garrisoning every single hexagonal inch of the coastline?
Or at least a way to merge zones without first assigning a governor and spending upwards of 70pp? Since every AI landfall inevitably results in a new zone, with a port and an airbase set up next turn, that then litter my everything and are prohibitively expensive to merge back.
Some way of dealing with aquatic fauna would be nice too, as without being able to destroy them in encirclement they remain an unfun pain the neck.
Post by: Dostoevsky on November 24, 2023, 04:46:53 pm
As to Oceania, as much as I like the game I have pretty mixed feelings about the DLC based on what I've read about it. Never picked it up.
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 24, 2023, 05:36:51 pm
Also, feels much harder - but that might have more to do with the supposed AI improvements and other mechanics changes since last time I played. I dunno.
Post by: EuchreJack on November 25, 2023, 12:56:08 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 25, 2023, 02:14:34 am
In any case - started another game and the D-Day bonanza is nowhere to be seen. I don't know why everyone loved my island so the previous time.
Post by: E. Albright on November 25, 2023, 04:11:33 pm
First, re: majors, play on bigger maps. Small maps give you oceans with too many connected landmasses and too few MTHs. But even on a bigger map, if you roll a planet where a tiny number of MTHs dominate the seas, you'll still have the problem of distant powers being able to jump down your throat constantly.
One expensive solution to this is to force an MTH split on a particular ocean zone you're trying to exclude landings in - that can sometimes stop invasions cold b/c the distant power(s) will no longer have contact with an MTH controlling your neighborhood waters. Ofc, if the MTH you're splitting is a strong naval power, it might just eat the offshoot, so that is something to consider.
Buying up all the MTH's available shipping also puts a damper on other majors' ability to invade constantly.
Re: critters, aircraft and artillery hitting them at sea helps slow them down and kill them off, but mostly you just need to keep a shore patrol. That helps for the invasion stuff too - forcing proper assaults instead of unopposed landings makes things significantly rougher on would-be invaders.
I will confess that on a few long playtests where there were particularly ugly sea critters, I may have nuked some of them. If you do it when they're far enough away from the shore, you don't have to deal with any environmental damage even if you're hitting them with ICBMs.
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 28, 2023, 05:33:04 am
Same story with the rest of them. I really don't want to have to be repeatedly looking it up in the manual to make sense of this shit.
Post by: E. Albright on November 28, 2023, 01:30:48 pm
Post by: E. Albright on December 31, 2023, 02:36:01 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/hSxu8o6.png)
Post by: Dostoevsky on January 01, 2024, 02:57:25 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on January 14, 2024, 03:16:39 pm
Would there be any interest some time in the not-to-immediate future? Maybe try Oceania this time? Some house rules (cough*nukes*cough), etc?
Post by: E. Albright on January 14, 2024, 09:08:44 pm
I'd generally add that getting rid of nukes (especially assorted tactical nukes) makes stalemate a lot more of a real possibility if an aggressor doesn't have an immediate overwhelming advantage; nukes having a chance to autokill-on-damage makes the defender's edge a lot easier to overcome. Soil filtration changes might make long-term stalemate less of a problem, though, I suppose. And Oceania makes it a lot harder to have fixed, easy-to-protect battle lines...
If you want a middleground between nukes and no nukes, you might wanna look at Pymous's rules mod. It most notably turns ICBMs into MRBMs (30 hex range), and atomic RPGs into superheavy RPGs. I don't think it's been updated to the latest version, though.
(All this does nothing to change my academic status, so this a comment from the peanut gallery rather than input from a would-be participant...)
Post by: Radsoc on January 15, 2024, 12:56:22 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on January 19, 2024, 09:21:22 pm
Does the game have Dominion-style MP? i.e. "one turn a day"It's different in that it's play-by-email, i.e. each player sending their save to another player in the turn order, and not using a dedicated server to host turns simultaneously. This means the turns can end up taking a loong time to go around if you have more than two players and the game is in an advanced state. Especially later on, as it can easily take an evening to process everything for a single player (and procrastination-related delays get multiplied too).
Post by: Radsoc on January 20, 2024, 01:39:25 am
Post by: Il Palazzo on January 20, 2024, 08:26:09 am
Post by: Karlito on January 21, 2024, 12:06:03 am
These updates put me in a mood of maaaaaybe thinking about potentially considering entertaining the idea of having another go at MP.
Would there be any interest some time in the not-to-immediate future? Maybe try Oceania this time? Some house rules (cough*nukes*cough), etc?
Probably no intense multiplayer experiences for me until like, May.
Post by: E. Albright on March 12, 2024, 06:31:31 pm
Spoiler: Colossus planets are weird (click to show/hide)
Starting to see some more hints in the direction of the next DLC, Republica. Last patch added FP stratagems for fate-exclusive lost GR tech and GR units.
Post by: EuchreJack on March 12, 2024, 09:16:38 pm
But it seems weird, so it'll probably get patched out of you make a bug report.
Post by: Karlito on April 16, 2024, 07:57:13 pm
Post by: Sime on April 30, 2024, 03:39:19 am
So, I've been continuously level-bombing the capital city of the most powerful major regime, which is within 25 hexes from an airbase on my island, for over 10 rounds, destroying all of it's public and private sector, apart from it's port and high-command (which have apparently miraculous healing properties), reducing the Civ level to barbaric and reducing its population of +300,000 to around 100,000. I've lost no aircraft and apparently the AI doesn't know that it should negotiate a truce. Also, the happiness level of this capital city that i have reduced to smithereens looks suspiciously fixed by the programmer at around 75%, with worker happiness rigid at 52%, which is laughable all things considered. This bombing campaign has put me about 15 VP above my nearest rival.
Also, most of the major and minor factions are passive to the point of docility, even when expanding. I suspect that this is partly due to the geographical isolation of each regime, and also partly because the planet in my game is much larger than the total manpower available, for according to the victory score screen, only above 60% of the planet is territory occupied by some regime, meaning there isn't much interaction among empires, even at round 280. I have also influenced the factions of every major regime towards pacifism, which also might have contributed. Sadly, nearly all of the drama in my game has been the reported naval conflicts between the Maritime Trade Houses, as opposed to the war-games i have partaken or observed between the regimes.
A much stronger diplomacy game-mechanic is clearly needed, for why is it so easy for me to unify with distant minor regimes that cannot be feasibly conquered or protected by either myself or any of the AI-controlled regimes in the short to medium term? And why aren't the AI-controlled regimes preoccupied with unification, given how easy it is? I think that only one of the majors has unified with a single minor regime, whereas I have effortlessly unified with at least three. I think it is fair to say that diplomacy logic is fully absent from this game, and that unification should be considered an exploit, given how reluctant the AI is to use it.
I suspect that if playing on large watery worlds, one should always choose the "nemesis regime" option to give the AI a much needed head start. Maybe one should also play on the "hard" AI difficulty setting. But perhaps, it is better to avoid the Oceania content and stick to playing worlds that are better suited to the wargame engine of Shadow Empire.
Post by: Salmeuk on May 05, 2024, 06:49:09 pm
Quote
Whilst I have enjoyed learning the mechanics of this game, the AI apparently has no concept of strategy, making me question whether learning the mechanics is worth it, in so far as SE is conceived to be a 4X as opposed to a sandbox simulator.
yeah you said it. the game is almost more akin to dwarf fortress in the way that you need a compelling meta-narrative, or even roleplay conceits, to get interesting gameplay out of it. basically if you aren't writing AARs(thank you for your paragraphs, btw, very enjoyable read of planet states) you aren't playing SE correctly
i also think you should play on smaller worlds with 'nemesis' turned on, like you say. the game is far to complex to hope for genuine AI improvements imo - small team issues
that being said, the game is truly a wonderful sandbox, and for that alone it's worth a purchase
Post by: E. Albright on May 06, 2024, 12:28:43 pm