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Author Topic: Literature, libraries, and papermakers.  (Read 12881 times)

Ploder

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Literature, libraries, and papermakers.
« on: February 26, 2012, 03:38:25 pm »

A literature system would go nicely with DF's preoccupation with its own history.

The bases of this mechanic would be papermaking and bookbinding labors (and corresponding workshops) and a literacy skill (governing dwarves' talent for writing).

These would enable to dwarves to do simple writing tasks while idling (or perhaps as a profession) like keeping a journal for a happy thought, writing letters to friends or nobles in larger forts, or more advanced and possibly beneficial tasks like writing histories or novels for the good of the fort.

These histories, once abundant enough, could be housed in a library. These would allow dwarves access to the books of their fort, which would trigger happy thoughts, and would be a pleasure for the player to design. The libraries would also pose a significant burning risk, and could bring with them the minor nuisance of bookworms (which could feature as a numberless pest).
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Literature, libraries, and papermakers.
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2012, 03:43:56 pm »

In the last version of the game, books were added into the game, and a literacy skill already exists.

There is no direct book-making being done in fortress mode as of yet, as books have no actual utility, but Toady is already working on putting them in.



As a reminder, it is recommended you look at the development pages, and do a search for a topic before you suggest something.  Certain topics come up very frequently in suggestions, and libraries are one of them.  If you use the search bar at the top right of the forum page, and search for "books" or "libraries", you'll come up with a cascade of hits.
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Neonivek

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Re: Literature, libraries, and papermakers.
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2012, 04:14:41 pm »

I will suggest that when we do get full on libraries that we will get a good interface for research.

So we don't have to pick up a ton of books... read them... then drop them on the floor after we are done.

We can just say "I want to research knitting" and the game will skip time a certain extent with you reading the books on knitting.

Either that or the ability to read books right from shelfs and tables.
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Jake

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Re: Literature, libraries, and papermakers.
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2012, 05:34:46 pm »

I like the idea of being able to use books to speed up skill gain. It'd need to be somewhat asymmetric to the profesions list; architecture for example should require both a book on mathematics and a book on either masonry, woodworking or metallurgy depending on what was being designed to get the full bonus.
There could also be classroom sessions on certain subjects, which would probably work somewhat like military training in practice, but with the possible exception of literacy these should be very slow compared to hands-on learning.
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I think Toady's confusing interface better simulates the experience of a bunch of disorganised drunken dwarves running a fort.

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catoblepas

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Re: Literature, libraries, and papermakers.
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2012, 06:31:09 pm »

I believe there was a topic on training manuals a bunch of months ago. I would think that they would be a optional method of leveling skills/warding off skill rust. As is, hands-on work is the only way to learn. I personally think there should be more ways to learn.

 The standard method of learning while doing is already implemented, however there is no real penalties to using no skill dwarves excepting with very valuable metals-dwarves caan't botch reactions and destroy reagents, they can't accidentally injure themselves, and they can't make 'shoddy' products (only no-modifer items). These should be possible disadvantages to using low skill dwarves to make items.

 Another way could be a master-apprentice system where apprentices are assigned like hunting and war animals to a dwarf. They then share their task settings and possibly help out the master in other ways such as hauling reagents and products. This would be a faster way of learning, but would be impacted by the skill ratio of the master to apprentice as well as skills such as observation, leadership, and teaching.

The last would be by using manuals to study skills. This would possibly be the longest method of teaching, and would be dependant on the reading skill of the reader and writer. Manuals would be expensive and tiem consuming to make possibly, but their advantages would be that dwarves could stave off skill rust if you had a shortage of reagents, and you could train up dwarves a few levels to mitigate the consequences of low level-skill reactions.

In addition, books on poetry, fiction, philosophy, history, or religion could give happy thoughts to dwarves that read them. Ledgers could be physical objects written by bookeepers that get updated periodincally, with appropriate consequences for loss or destruction. Legends mode would be appropriately vague or specific on certain points depending on how much documentation was present of them. (this could help clear up a lot of clutter for creatures that never end up doing anything in world gen) They would still exist, but their wherabouts, names, or even physical descriptions or species might be unknown. For more documented cases, there might be more specific information, such as hair color or personality quirks etc.

Thoughts?
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Ploder

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Re: Literature, libraries, and papermakers.
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2012, 09:01:02 pm »

Very sorry for the hasty post--I tried a search for books and for paper and got virtually no relevant hits, though I suspect I used the wrong search bar.

In any case, I'm glad some folks found some cool things to discuss.

I also like the idea of skill gain through reading. I agree that skill gain from reading should be extremely incremental for veteran craftsdwarves. However, the skill gain for no-skill dwarves might be more substantial. The books would function, for them, like beginner's primers and would teach them basic terms and processes for a particular craft, perhaps boosting them quickly from no-skill to novice.

The ability of dwarves to journal might also help stave off tantrum spirals. Dwarves might derive especial comfort from journaling during times of great suffering--a function which could potentially increase the importance of the literacy skill.

Also, using a library as a meeting area could have additional benefits for dwarves (incremental increase in the various skills on which books have been written, general increase of intellect and reason).
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dizzyelk

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Re: Literature, libraries, and papermakers.
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2012, 09:24:18 pm »

I'd also like to see the bookkeeper record the history of the fortress
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Neonivek

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Re: Literature, libraries, and papermakers.
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2012, 09:48:23 pm »

I'd also like to see the bookkeeper record the history of the fortress

I don't believe that is what Bookkeepers do exactly. Other then a few usurps their major job is actually to keep track of stocks.

To admit books upon books of this boring dry info would be interesting.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Literature, libraries, and papermakers.
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2012, 12:53:31 pm »

This is a masterwork ledger.  It contains 3719356 pages on the topic of the precise number and location of stones in Spindlybrooks.  In the text, the dwarves are hauling.



But still, to the other posters in the thread, skill-affecting books are slated for work.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 01:33:57 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
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Supersnes

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Re: Literature, libraries, and papermakers.
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2012, 08:56:13 pm »

With the slight implementation of books in the current build, an ability to copy them will eventually be necessary.  In the event that a knowledgeable dwarf gets a mood they may compile that knowledge into a tome.  This tome will then be usable to train subsequent dwarves in the skills its associated with--similar to how reading a book/slab with the information of life and death can make you a necromancer in adventure mode. 
However, just one tome won't be enough to teach all your dwarves the desired skills; duplicates will be necessary.  This is when scribes come into play.  Scribes would heavily utilize reading, writing, and wordsmith skills.  Dwarves assigned to scribe work can begin with simply duplicating books but can progress over time.  Eventually a scribe can begin to compile different works into a single volume, add person knowledge and experience, and eventually write their own completely seperate books on the topic(s) (due to the dwarf in question getting increased skill from just simply working with the material). 
Over time the fortress in question may become a great repository that can bring in further researchers, alchemist, magician, historians, etc.  The fortress can become a time capsule that can be sealed in the event of social collapse fun to preserve the information for adventurers or future embarkers to discover. 
Caravans can haul massive amounts of the texts across kingdoms spreading knowledge that can lead to greater cities, monolithic structures, techniques, equipment/weapons, artwork, crafts, etc that can give it a greater chance to successful defend and conquer.
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Personally, I like it because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
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Re: Literature, libraries, and papermakers.
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2012, 10:29:41 am »

Books shouldn't train dwarves, maybe up to novice or adept but not more.
I would like to see fictional tales and historical pieces however, as trading commodities, and also to spice up cultures.
For instance, one culture would have a tag, making them more likely to write poetry, while another culture would be famous for their volumous encyclopedias and historical novels.

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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Literature, libraries, and papermakers.
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2012, 10:50:35 am »

Books shouldn't train dwarves, maybe up to novice or adept but not more.
I would like to see fictional tales and historical pieces however, as trading commodities, and also to spice up cultures.
For instance, one culture would have a tag, making them more likely to write poetry, while another culture would be famous for their volumous encyclopedias and historical novels.

Storytellers honestly sound more like "Tavern" stuff than "School" stuff, though. 

Of course, there are those players who will want a library just to have a library, and treat it like the new engraving, without needing to train any skills, which is fine enough (and basically possible right now with modding). 

Also, note that we already DO have "Poet," "Reader," "Speaker," "Wordsmith," and "Writer."  These skills are presumably in the game to be used at some point.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
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nxcho

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Re: Literature, libraries, and papermakers.
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2012, 12:35:17 pm »

Of course there should be books, bookshelves, libraries and most importantly, a chief librarian noble.
The librarian loans books to dwarves, punishes them if they return them too late and get very unhappy thoughts from noise.
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Jake

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Re: Literature, libraries, and papermakers.
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2012, 08:23:55 am »

I also like the idea of skill gain through reading. I agree that skill gain from reading should be extremely incremental for veteran craftsdwarves. However, the skill gain for no-skill dwarves might be more substantial. The books would function, for them, like beginner's primers and would teach them basic terms and processes for a particular craft, perhaps boosting them quickly from no-skill to novice.
I think the most balanced method of achieving that would be if having a relevant textbook or textbooks decreased the number of items you needed to make in order to advance a skill level by n%, on a sliding scale. Dabbling to novice could get a 10% boost (divided if necessary by the number of different texts one needed for the full effect) decreasing up until Competent or Professional, after which it would only provide a 2% boost.
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Never used Dwarf Therapist, mods or tilesets in all the years I've been playing.
I think Toady's confusing interface better simulates the experience of a bunch of disorganised drunken dwarves running a fort.

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Five chickens

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Re: Literature, libraries, and papermakers.
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2012, 11:34:46 am »

Books shouldn't train dwarves, maybe up to novice or adept but not more.
I would like to see fictional tales and historical pieces however, as trading commodities, and also to spice up cultures.
For instance, one culture would have a tag, making them more likely to write poetry, while another culture would be famous for their volumous encyclopedias and historical novels.

I agree with you about training.

But I like the idea of building vast libraries to attract visiting scholars, and the idea of dwarven "monks" inscribing ornate books and/or scrolls.
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