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Author Topic: Additional CIA japes [DPRK Thread]  (Read 514976 times)

Guardian G.I.

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More or less the only group that's going to gain any benefit, at bloody all, from an NK invasion is a mostly uninvolved* third party that wants the involved to be weakened. It's a powerful likelihood that even the NK populous would be in a worse position from it for at-minimum several years out.

In my opinion, that group will possibly be United States of America, provided that they don't use military force on the ground in Korea. The war or its aftermath will devastate the South Korean economy and create much instability on borders of their geopolitical enemies (China and Russia). It's a perfect situation for America, no pesky Samsung phones will steal money from Apple anymore and China will have to deal with the whole mess instead of America.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 01:08:51 am by Guardian G.I. »
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Flying Dice

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More or less the only group that's going to gain any benefit, at bloody all, from an NK invasion is a mostly uninvolved* third party that wants the involved to be weakened. It's a powerful likelihood that even the NK populous would be in a worse position from it for at-minimum several years out.

In my opinion, that group will possibly be United States of America, provided that they don't use military force on the ground in Korea. The war or its aftermath will devastate the South Korean economy and create much instability on borders of their geopolitical enemies (China and Russia). It's a perfect situation for America, no pesky Samsung phones will steal money from Apple anymore and China will have to deal with the whole mess instead of America.

That's really not a viable approach, at least for the majority of international thinkers in the U.S. South Korea (and Japan) are important U.S. allies precisely because they help counterbalance China, and a not-insignificant element of that is a holdover of old Cold War policy. The last thing the U.S. government wants is for the Koreas to fight, the U.S. to stay uninvolved, and China to step in and "deal with the whole mess". Intervention on the behalf of South Korea would almost certainly be a domestic disaster for the U.S. government if it ran longer than a year and saw U.S. ground forces committed, but South (or a unified) Korea falling into China's sphere of influence would be an infinitely worse international disaster for the U.S. government. It's worrying enough for these people that Japan's largest trade partner is now (IIRC, it happened recently) China, never mind the possibility of an alliance between them and South/Reunified Korea. Hell, war between the Koreas with the U.S. intentionally avoiding participation would be a massive coup for China; they have the opportunity to upstage the U.S., tighten bonds with South Korea, and deal with the ongoing disaster magnet on their border. Same sort of idea as with Chinese investment and aid in Africa, except a high-profile moment rather than long-term systematic development.

That aside, it's a rather simplistic view of the economic angle; South Korea is a supplier of relatively cheap consumer goods, predominantly electronics. Something like a war with the DPRK would obviously trash that, which in turn means price spikes in the U.S.; we're firmly post-industrial, and even the high-tech sector of production is still relatively insignificant compared to the service sector (or foreign imports). Drastic reduction in the volume of goods imported from any of our major trading partners would be painful for the U.S.; certainly U.S. businesses competing with those imports would benefit, but that doesn't equate to it being good for the U.S. government or population. Same deal as implementing protectionist trade policies: it's good for the firms that face reduced competition, bad for everyone else (except for developing states that need to protect fledgling industry from being overrun by cheap foreign imports--including, coincidentally, South Korea a few decades ago).

Basically, the U.S. government has nothing to gain in the economic or international political realms by avoiding intervening in a Korean war. Literally the best outcome (from the perspective of the U.S. government) of such a situation would be a brief, inconclusive war between the Koreas, with no external intervention, which does not change the status quo. To put it briefly, that is... unlikely.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 01:54:12 am by Flying Dice »
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Strife26

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More or less the only group that's going to gain any benefit, at bloody all, from an NK invasion is a mostly uninvolved* third party that wants the involved to be weakened. It's a powerful likelihood that even the NK populous would be in a worse position from it for at-minimum several years out.

In my opinion, that group will possibly be United States of America, provided that they don't use military force on the ground in Korea. The war or its aftermath will devastate the South Korean economy and create much instability on borders of their geopolitical enemies (China and Russia). It's a perfect situation for America, no pesky Samsung phones will steal money from Apple anymore and China will have to deal with the whole mess instead of America.


What.
That doesn't make sense.

As Flying Dice undersaid, South Korea is *the* key US ally in the Asia-Pacific. Also, the idea that US Ground forces wouldn't get involved requires a leap of reality that's pretty much ridiculous.

As the resident US Army ground combat arms guy, it's helpful to remember that I could reasonably point a weapon North, fire, and get a round to land in North Korea. The US-SK military alliance has stood for over 60 years now. Starting your argument with "Yeah, it doesn't count" makes about as much sense as "selling Alaska is a great idea"


You need to argue that it's immoral for the civilized world to let people in a shithole country like North Korea continue to live under Kim Jong-Un's thumb. Furthermore, you need to say that preemptive war *now* is going to be less disruptive in terms of US/SK/NK lives than war on North Korea's terms whenever they want, or the war that'd break out when they collapse.

Point out specifically how obsolete most of their artillery is, as well as the ridiculous technology gap between the US/RoK forces and the DPRK. Use the fact that the US landed a whole additional combined arms battalion. (search DoD sources to find a good press brief on it).

1)North Korea demands liberation if anywhere does
2)Setting the war on our terms in greatly preferable to either a North Korea started war or a North Korean Collapse.



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LordSlowpoke

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sorry, can't help but snicker when anyone speaks of liberation in any historical context beyond the second world war maybe (and it's pretty shaky a term even then, you guys remember eastern europe?)

if you want to write an interesting essay, don't focus on why north korea is horrible and that its people deserve freedom, etc., focus on how much profit your country would get from invading north korea and plundering its resources

it wouldn't be a particularly good or long one, but you could sell it off as scathing social commentary for mad props - liberal arts love scathing social commentary. this only will work if your professor belongs to a very clearly defined group of people so the choice is yours
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Strife26

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Korea and the Gulf War are both fairly reasonable

But yeah, it's not a strong argument, of course, you're manifestly *not* going to be seeing any kind of profit from plundering North Korea compared to the cost of the resulting shittiness.

I mean, some argument is better than no argument, after all. I suppose that you could argue that paying out combat pay to us troops would help the economy somehow? I could use the bonus.
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Helgoland

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How about twisting the words? Assume North Korea attacked first. Then there's some very nice parallels to the original Korean War, a bit of moral and geostrategic issues on the side... It works, and you get around the justification problem.
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10ebbor10

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There's also the WMD argument. NK is pretty certainly developing them, and while the odds of successfully creating one and delivering it are low, there's a not insignificant they'll recreate Chernobyl with their aging, unmaintained reactors.
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MonkeyHead

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Nah, the WMD argument is not going to carry any wieght in the west following the clusterfuck of Iraq, which in part was based on the claim of Iraqi WMD's.
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10ebbor10

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Well, unlike the IraQi WMD's, which didn't really exist, North Korea has already done 3 Nuclear Weapon tests, or at least things that looked very much like it.

Additionally, they have on numerous occasions confirmed that they posses, or are very close to possessing, nuclear weaponry.
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MonkeyHead

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Oh, its not the validity of the claims that would put people on the street protesting, it would be the using it again as a justification for a war.
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LordSlowpoke

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the "they're building wmds we gotta stop them" argument only really works if a) they're still working on them, not having developed one and b) are not batshit enough to potentially use it on their own land as a giant middle finger to your troops
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Convince China there's enormous oil and mineral reserves under NK by falsifying data in our oil companies' databases, which will get leaked and/or stolen by spies. Cue China deciding that NK's human rights violations are seriously concerning and stepping in with "peacekeeping forces" outnumbering NK's up to 50:1.
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Dutchling

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I wouldn't be surprised if China has been using that tactic against the US for decades now.
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lemon10

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Except that if their were huge reserves China would just make a joint deal with NK, where China would extract the minerals/oil and keep most of the oil/minerals that came out of the ground.
Plus, I don't think even China would invade NK for that given the potential risk involved. Even if there is a 90% chance that they take out ALL of NK's nukes before they can hit China, thats a 10% chance that millions of Chinese citizens would die.
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Dutchling

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Well, NK has large reserves of coal and rare earths.
* China laugh maniacally
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