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Author Topic: WH40K discussion thread: from Tyran's heart I stab at thee.  (Read 965373 times)

Grim Portent

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That origin hasn't been canon for years. He has no backstory beyond having existed for a long time now. He's just an incredibly powerful psyker of unknown origin, same as Malcador was.

The guy couldn't even create the primarchs without getting extra energy from the Chaos Gods and couldn't fix the corruptions the Gods put into the primarchs and marines as revenge for being stiffed on the deal.

The fact that he hasn't reincarnated himself but instead gave instructions on how to turn the Throne to a life support system instead of it's original function indicates that he can't bring himself back.
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There once was a dwarf in a cave,
who many would consider brave.
With a head like a block
he went out for a sock,
his ass I won't bother to save.

Kot

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Maybe it's a statement about the fundamental nature of humanity. All aspects of our psyches manifest in the Warp, but it's a question of which ones are preeminent. Which parts of humanity drown out the others? I'm sure there are Warp deities of "order" but do they draw enough energy from the human psyche to override the gods of war, desire, despair and scheming?
One of really core reasons why Chaos is, well, Chaos, is War in Heaven. It's presumed that during that before Warp was more... orderly, (or at least supposedly neutral, since I guess various malicious warp beings were a thing before, they just weren't a big deal) and with it the Warp got fucked resulting in waves of nightmares came true and assorted tentacle monsters. There's a chance that current "negative" and "chaotic" nature of warp is not only drawn from contemporary sources, but there's a lot of emotional fallout from back then, and it only gets worse. Snowball effect, really.

Now, the reason why there is no real "counter-force" to this, is the fact that there were no truly "orderly" dominant (as in, widely spread with high population and psychical capabilities) beings in Galaxy for long time. Old Ones were more like hippies and by extension Eldar were also really "loose" before the whole Slannesh debacle. Necrons don't really count for obvious reasons, Orks work in weird ways, which leaves us with humanity, which wasn't hardcore fascist order uber alles dudes for essentially their entire history up until Emperor slapped their shit together for a Great Crusade. Tau are irrelevant.

Here's my beef:

The canon asserts that "like kinds of emotional emanations" condense together, such that there are rivers of hate, flows of despair-- et al.

The thing is, if there is a unifying characteristic of the entire imperium of man, it is hope of the emperor's providence, and faith in his immortality.

The same rules that spawn chaos gods should therefore be actively congealing into a god-body comprised of those things, whether the emperor wants it or not.
Which might be totally happening in some fashion - the thing is, it's complicated because Emperor is technically still alive. I mean, there are some clues in form of existence of Sanguinor, the whole Legion of the Damned thing, various miracles of faith that are being pulled off, which imply that hardcore faith does have a real effect (most commonly for Sororitas, but there's a chance those things happen much more commonly, they're just overlooked). As I said though, it's complicated because Emperor is still a being that's tied to his body. It might be that the "orderly" emotions are channeled towards him but he's not a pure Warp being, which constrains him and makes him working the same as Chaos Gods impossible.

I think we can overrule the former, because if that were true, then chaos would have already won (handily). :P
Which may have happened (we just don't know yet), or may not, or maybe fucking Alpharius and Omegon BROKE EVERYTHING FOREVER.

That only leaves option two, which I alluded to cheekily as "Narrative Reasons".  AKA, Narrative Fiat, et al.
I mean, this is the entire reason behind everything in Warhammer 40k, but I find trying to explain anything with it is... boring, uninspired and lazy. Sure, it might be the actual real world reason, but if you use this explanation for something, a question appears as to why you don't just explain everything with it, and then the next question would be "what's the point then?".Trying to make sense out of imaginary universe is a neat exercise for mind, and just going "well but muh writers" you're kinda taking away the whole point.

That origin hasn't been canon for years. He has no backstory beyond having existed for a long time now. He's just an incredibly powerful psyker of unknown origin, same as Malcador was.

The guy couldn't even create the primarchs without getting extra energy from the Chaos Gods and couldn't fix the corruptions the Gods put into the primarchs and marines as revenge for being stiffed on the deal.

The fact that he hasn't reincarnated himself but instead gave instructions on how to turn the Throne to a life support system instead of it's original function indicates that he can't bring himself back.
"Hasn't been canon for years", yeah so are tons of things in Warhammer lore which are considered true. Unless a piece of fluff specifically says "this isn't true" or overrides the old canon, old canon is still in effect (and even then, since everything is true, it's just a matter of perspective, he might still very well be even if official fluff states that, say, Imperium believes he's an omnipotent God that created everything and were first). The Primarch creation thing is... weird, but doesn't necessarily mean his previous origin story is false - after all Primarchs are a bit more than "lmao genetically engineered dudes", and being the result of psychic fart of thousands of shamans doesn't mean you have infinite powers. Also, Primarches and marines weren't per-se corrupted by Chaos Gods initially. They were "destined" to do certain things, but said destiny wasn't... exact, and the "game" could be changed immensely quite easily. Consult "The Board is Set".

There's also the issue of how Big E came to exist in the first place:  The canon storyline involves a cabaal of shamanic leaders willingly terminating themselves, and redirecting all of their energies into reincarnation of a single birth; the result of which was Big E.

We have overwhelmingly more energy being pumped into Big E each day than was used to spawn him.  It should be painlessly trivial for Big E to reincarnate himself.  Why is he choosing to die?
Now, this is problematic. My two working theories I can come up with on the fly are:
a) Emperor decision to be sat on the Golden Throne, which was presumably caused by him not wanting to abandon humanity for the time it'd take him to somehow return (if he could back then) somehow bound him to the thing, and he can't fucking leave. I mean, the thing was an actual gate into Webway, which kind-of harnesses Warp and binds it into something that doesn't try to rape you, so he might be bound in similar way.
b) Getting wounded by fucking Horus that's all pumped on Chaos Gods juice isn't the same as getting wounded regularly. Perpetuals, which are the immortal dudes that hang around the lore are apparently vulnerable to being killed by Fulgurite, which was basically a piece of Emperor lightning juice, though only when handled by Primarches.
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smjjames

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The God Emperor was spawned? I thought he was born a mortal and then ascended to godhood via some sort of technology.

It’s just uninformed theory/assumption rather than some non-canon I heard of somewhere I think.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 03:37:03 pm by smjjames »
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Kot

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The God Emperor was spawned? I thought he was born a mortal and then ascended to godhood via some sort of technology.

It’s just uninformed theory rather than some non-canon I heard of somewhere I think.
I mean, uh, kind of. The story goes that Emperor is an effect of collective of Humanity's psykers some ten thousand years ago (or so) commited ritualistic suicide to combine into a soul that then inhabited a baby. Emperor was born like regular human, and wasn't even aware of his "Emperorness" for a time. It could be said that his real "Godhood"  was achieved with being sat on Golden Throne, considering he was incredibly against religion beforehand, but yeah, he was pretty "amazing" from very early on. Of course this doesn't mean he's not a human, he's just essentially a dude who got gifted psychic juice from fuckton of psykers and given a purpose to defend humanity.
Mind you, it might not be "true". He might as well be a really powerful psychic soybean that camouflages itself as a dude to notnget eaten, for what we know.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 03:42:27 pm by Kot »
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Digital Hellhound

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GW's keeping the Emperor's origins a mystery these days. Nothing's contradicted the shaman theory (which I like a lot, especially if you think it as like the shamans trading off all of humanity's psychic potential for millenia for this one dude, rather than just them uniting their own power), but it also hasn't been mentioned in ages at all. Master of Mankind doesn't mention it directly, but it does place the Emperor's youth in ancient Anatolia like in the old lore, so there's that. The book also provides other theories from various people like Emps being a runaway DAoT construct (also kinda a fun idea), since people's different interpretations of the Emperor are kinda a central thing in it. I don't think I've ever actually heard that 'mortal to ascended to godhood through technology' idea, though.

I like the variety of theories! MoM was great in that regard, since we never get anything from the Emperor's perspective, only different faces he shows to different people and different ideas people have of him*. Personally I think that's the best way to handle the big golden boy. Lore which gives concrete and specific information tends to disappoint, in this case.

*Then they went and had Guilliman meet him in the current era, where He was pretty unambiguously framed as a cold and detached craftsman who sees the Primarchs as just tools... because why have nuance and mystery when you can go for one singular boring truth. You can interpret that scene in various ways, of course, but it's a rather more stronger statement than before. Some plot points just become lamer if Emps has absolutely no emotional connection to his kids, like hesitating against Horus when they battle. Maybe they'll stay with this version and retcon it in an interesting way, maybe they'll go for a more multifaceted portrayal. HH's finally coming to a close, so I guess we'll find out soon.
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smjjames

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Maybe they just don’t want to get boxed in by their own lore since it sounds like there are lots of varied threads that they’d have to massively retcon.
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Kot

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It should be noted it's not outside the realm of possibility that Emperor is... different than he was before due to being stuck on Golden Shitter for quite a long while. Guilliman mentions he thinks he's more powerful than he was before, and that talking with him is like "talking with a star", so there's a possibility that Emperor being interred on Golden Throne, with no easy form of connection with outside world, while also being constantly fed new souls which might have merged with him. Of course Guilliman when faced with Emperor, feels like Emperor was like this since always, because when he was living he could have cloaked what he wanted with human emotions, so others would do his bidding (Or maybe Guilliman himself is made to think that for some reason that only Emperor knows).

Maybe they just don’t want to get boxed in by their own lore since it sounds like there are lots of varied threads that they’d have to massively retcon.
GW stance for quite a while was that all of the lore is unreliable. They are written from certain points of views, and even then might not be objectively what a character saw, but rather a retelling of a story by someone else (Ciaphas Cain and Amberley Vail are most notable examples) or something else entirely. It's like history, really, you just have a bunch of sources that might or might not be remotely true, and have to piece what you think is truth from them. This does grant them (and anyone creating works in this universe) pretty big freedom (except when it comes to looks - everything is supposed to look properly so they can sell muh miniatures) in what they can do with it.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 04:13:28 pm by Kot »
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pisskop

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I'd like nothing more than for it to be revealed that Emps was dead for 10000k years, and that the sacrifice of souls to a choas entity is what sustained the throne, not any human soul.

Big E is dead, youve been worshipping a dead god, and you know what?  thats what has to happen, so it gets covered up and life grimdarks on.
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drealmerz7 - pk was supreme pick for traitor too I think, and because of how it all is and pk is he is just feeding into the trollfucking so well.
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Kot

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Sure thing traitor, whatever helps you sleep at night.
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Kot finishes his morning routine in the same way he always does, by burning a scale replica of Saint Basil's Cathedral on the windowsill.

Grim Portent

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I think the Emperor being in constant pain as he slowly dies fending off the darkness for the good of a people who have long since abandoned his ideals is more grimdark.
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There once was a dwarf in a cave,
who many would consider brave.
With a head like a block
he went out for a sock,
his ass I won't bother to save.

nenjin

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As a kid, the Emperor looked at a dude and gave him a heart attack.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
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When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
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pisskop

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I think the Emperor being in constant pain as he slowly dies fending off the darkness for the good of a people who have long since abandoned his ideals is more grimdark.
I guess so.  There _is_ a certain hope in having stood alone against the galaxy without the aid of a god.  it shows hooe.
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Pisskop's Reblancing Mod - A C:DDA Mod to make life a little (lot) more brutal!
drealmerz7 - pk was supreme pick for traitor too I think, and because of how it all is and pk is he is just feeding into the trollfucking so well.
PKs DF Mod!

nenjin

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I think the Emperor being in constant pain as he slowly dies fending off the darkness for the good of a people who have long since abandoned his ideals is more grimdark.
I guess so.  There _is_ a certain hope in having stood alone against the galaxy without the aid of a god.  it shows hooe.

It's not really hope, IMO. It's defiance. Knowing you can't win but refusing to bend the knee to fate.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Kot

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Kot finishes his morning routine in the same way he always does, by burning a scale replica of Saint Basil's Cathedral on the windowsill.
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