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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 70 (27.6%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 113 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 582538 times)

Descan

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1665 on: April 07, 2015, 04:46:47 pm »

As for my morality, it's based on "We're all each other's got, just us against the universe." Universe is a dick, and it's my job to dick it right back, and make it service humans.

Also that every independent mind is important and we should allow each and every one to flourish as much as it wants to, and live as long as it wants to.

Also truth justice yada yada.

Side-note: I'd much rather it be actually-me running around and living forever, not some jackass clone or copy that thinks it's me. I'm not about to tear my brain apart to give a computer a sense of humour, so I'll stick with continuity forms of immortality, like gradual neuron replacement or data-storage grafting.
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TD1

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1666 on: April 07, 2015, 05:11:13 pm »

But the universe doesn't have a personality, obviously, so saying you want to 'dick it back' is nonsensical- the universe just is. Neither good nor bad, but with aspects that we perceive to be good or bad.
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1667 on: April 07, 2015, 05:14:51 pm »

A question for the atheists: If you had the option of an afterlife, would you take it?
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Frumple

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1668 on: April 07, 2015, 05:20:54 pm »

I'm sure tapeworms are very interesting if you study them.
Maybe but they aren't exactly indicative of a human-centered universe :P
Leprosy would be, though! It completely adapted to being human-only, like, a few million years back or somethin'. Been parasiting on humans so long it literally can't effect other stuff anymore (though it'll ride on a few things, iirc.).

... as for the morality thing, "An' it harm none, do what you will" is more or less the foundation of my moral theory -- I evaluate good or bad on a personal level by whether and to what degree it causes harm. If it doesn't, I give literally zero damns. If it does no more harm than other, generally accepted actions, damns equally not given. And the harm actually has to be observable and communicable (at least theoretically, if nothing else). Which is to say I don't really get along very well with most religion based morality :V

Is where about a quarter of the irreligion comes from. It's hard to convince me something is wrong without showing me how it's wrong, and if all the negatives have been ground under the dust by several centuries of scientific and medical advances, well. Eat pigs, we've fixed the issues there as much as we have with most any meat. Sodomize anything that's willing, medical science has fixed potential medical issues, there. Wear mixed fabrics, we don't need bullshit tribal markers anymore. Etc., so forth, so on. Maybe hold off on the slavery and killing and whatnot, though. Keep the good stuff! Just... not the rest.

Metaphysics and whatnot, well, I think they're pretty. Really pretty. Also mostly (not entirely, but mostly) useless -- the exact nature of the universe is mostly irrelevant, since we're entirely limited by physical constraints (which may or may not be an illusion, but there's no way of actually telling and how you should act in any given situation is completely uneffected by whether it is or isn't, so...) in how we observe and interact with whatever's there.

A world with or without gods appears the same to us. With or without souls, with or without an actual physical reality, with or without an afterlife or reincarnation, with or without objective morality, or free will, or whatever. The list just kind of spreads on into comprehensiveness. Metaphysics is important and useful strictly to the extent it influences actual action.

Which, to be fair, is not an entirely unnotable amount -- as one of my professors liked to say, "metaphysics precedes ethics." The structure of the latter will be mostly determined by the structure of the former. BS like the just world nonsense a lot of religious theologies encourage would be an example of a negative effect. Stuff like charitable giving/good works and whatnot would be an example of a positive! Just wish more joints in the states actually did that charitably instead of janking it right back into the churches.

Totes okay with giving jackass computers a sense of humor with a me-clone, though. Continuity would be nice, but an infinite chain of frumples going on into perpetuity would be pretty alright, too, even if the first one is dead and gone. Also forks. Forking frumples everywhere. Millions of forked mes, doing all the things a forking horde can. If the future is forking forever, I would be as happy as a forked frumple can be.

A question for the atheists: If you had the option of an afterlife, would you take it?
I would, actually. It would give the potential of enacting revenge upon the divine for the millions of years of suffering their shoddy engineering has inflicted on my species. If an eternity of torture meant just one chance to stab a bastard responsible for the state of the world in their equivalent to an eye, I'd take it. That's worth it, to me.

I don't think an afterlife exists, and I think if it did, it would make no difference to how I should act while living (at least without a means of intercommunication, anyway). But I hope it does, because I've got a list of conceptual entities in the back of my head I want to spend an eternity kicking in their equivalent of reproductive organs. One kick for every ill they've allowed fall upon my people.
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TD1

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1669 on: April 07, 2015, 05:49:15 pm »

A question for the atheists: If you had the option of an afterlife, would you take it?
Yes. Under the provision that I stay me, and am not made differently. It would prove Nietzsche's slabe morality all too true.

Really, what I want is an after life without the God. I don't know him- he is a stranger people speak of in veiled words. No. I am happy here without him. The after lige, too, would be happy without him.

Edit: ignore spelling mistakes. Using phone still. Very annoying.

Oh, may as well say that this is all irrelevant. Iv wishes were horses, blind men would ride.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 05:54:05 pm by Th4DwArfY1 »
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1670 on: April 07, 2015, 05:59:30 pm »

A question for the atheists: If you had the option of an afterlife, would you take it?
Without any qualifications?  Hell no.  Eternity has an infinite capacity to be horrible.  Heck, eternity is arguably guaranteed to be horrible without some sort of memory-erasing provision.  Though it's probably fine as long as enough interesting things are happening.

Non-existence, on the other hand, is theoretically absolutely fine.  My instincts don't agree, but they literally evolved to persist at any cost.

I appreciate religions (like the Jews) which are content to consign non-believers to nonexistence.  I feel like Christianity raised the stakes to serve its own recruiting efforts.  In an ironically evolutionary way.

Though I do really want to observe existence forever, with the ability to forget things.  I can't think of a better afterlife, and it seems fair since I wouldn't have to exist in a meaningful sense.  So I guess I want to be a ghost (despite being somewhat scared of them).

Edit: Typo'd "wouldn't" into "would".  Wow, "would" looks super weird now that I'm thinking about it.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 06:07:36 pm by Rolan7 »
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1671 on: April 07, 2015, 06:04:21 pm »

Question for everybody: Do you think that humanity as a whole needs a collective mythos?
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1672 on: April 07, 2015, 06:12:09 pm »

what do you mean by "needs"?
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Helgoland

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1673 on: April 07, 2015, 06:18:17 pm »

That it would greatly benefit from such a thing.
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lemon10

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1674 on: April 07, 2015, 06:19:29 pm »

3b) Because no non-physically defined parts exist, a "god" can therefore not exist.
It depends what you mean by "god". If you mean "Naturally occurring metaphysical being with magical powers" (as nearly every god described in religions are), then I agree.
If by god you mean: "Super powerful (functionally) immortal being/construct capable of doing things (functionally) indistinguishable from magic powers", then I strongly disagree, as such a being is very possible (and probably exists somewhere in the universe). This could include a being powerful/knowledgeable enough to create a universe, which would pretty much make it a god by definition.
A question for the atheists: If you had the option of an afterlife, would you take it?
Probably. If I had to choose if I wanted a afterlife or not (without any qualifiers), I would probably say yes after some thought, even though there would be the possibility of some really nasty outcomes.
I appreciate religions (like the Jews) which are content to consign non-believers to nonexistence.  I feel like Christianity raised the stakes to serve its own recruiting efforts.  In an ironically evolutionary way.
Yeah, the concept of hell is one of the strongest points of the Christian religion. It makes the path that results in the most converts the most moral path, no matter what other costs it has (even if it results in deaths and torture). Without it the religion would have been far less effective.
E: I don't think it was designed it that way in order to get converts though, I think Jesus simply taught it as part of the dogma, and it just happened to end up hugely improving the conversion power of Christianity.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 06:26:04 pm by lemon10 »
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1675 on: April 07, 2015, 06:23:35 pm »

A question for the atheists: If you had the option of an afterlife, would you take it?

Depends on the details.

Question for everybody: Do you think that humanity as a whole needs a collective mythos?

Define "Mythos".
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1676 on: April 07, 2015, 06:24:42 pm »

A question for the atheists: If you had the option of an afterlife, would you take it?
Honestly, it depends for me. An afterlife of tinkering and observing the universe/the systems I make tick by? I'd take it, if I had the ability to enter oblivion at any time. At my core, I think that tinkering and observing's really what I want to do anyway, afterlife or not.

If it didn't have that option, I don't really think so. I love to watch things change and evolve, but eternity is a long, long time.
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TD1

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1677 on: April 07, 2015, 06:31:20 pm »

Question for everybody: Do you think that humanity as a whole needs a collective mythos?
No. Doesn't need it. Shouldn't have it. With one mythos, people would become deluded that it is true. It would cause cultural and intellectual stagnation by discouraging thought.

No doubt you'd like Catholicism to be Catholic in more than just name, but it would be the death of intellectual discourse.
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lemon10

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1678 on: April 07, 2015, 06:32:18 pm »

I suspect that an afterlife wouldn't last for eternity though. Its fundamentally not how this universe works, and I see no reason that another would be so fundamentally different. That isn't to say that there wouldn't be the very real possibility it would last for thousands/millions/billions of years, but I'm of the very strong opinion, that if there was an afterlife, it wouldn't last for eternity.
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1679 on: April 07, 2015, 06:41:40 pm »

I suspect that an afterlife wouldn't last for eternity though. Its fundamentally not how this universe works, and I see no reason that another would be so fundamentally different. That isn't to say that there wouldn't be the very real possibility it would last for thousands/millions/billions of years, but I'm of the very strong opinion, that if there was an afterlife, it wouldn't last for eternity.
Could the afterlife occur in a different universe? Where things last forever?
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