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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 70 (27.6%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 113 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 582338 times)

TempAcc

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #3585 on: November 17, 2015, 07:45:02 am »

I have discreetly LMAO'd in my office and people are looking at me funny now. Thanks a lot, SirQ >:v

But yea, why does every time someone starts talking about the inherent problems of Islam, someone always does the ~well what about all those awful religions/creeds/political groups/sandals/etc, why aren't you talking about them too? Thats problematic~ thing and do whatever they can do to shift the discussion away from the fact that Islam is driving force behind incredibly massive waves of violence, terrorism and war right now, and that it has constantly been like this (though at different levels) for the recent decades? This isn't even something thats discussed only by non-Muslims either, there are many Muslims who admit to this and call for a new Islamic movement that distances themselves from the warlike intolerant Islam that seems to dominate the most vocal groups in the religion, or is met with passive, silent support from others, either in the form of the strange sense of masochistic ~progressiveness~ that tolerates intolerance and that has infected every layer of western society, or actual intent in subjugating everything in favor of an Islamic view.
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TD1

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #3586 on: November 17, 2015, 08:55:54 am »

As an aside, the Muslim religion was really quite something back in the day. Helped learning, furthered philosophy and medicine.

I don't think those are key aspects of it anymore - it used to be at least on par with Christianity, so the whole "Islam is still young!" argument really doesn't hold much weight.
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TempAcc

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #3587 on: November 17, 2015, 09:08:52 am »

Yes, Islam was quite the powerhouse when it came to mathematics, accounting, philosophy, chemistry and other realms of science and thought, specially during the dark ages, when christianity was more about LETS BURN EVERYONE rather than developing philosophy and stimulating morality and charity.

Islam has become more and more closed in regards to sciences since (apart from the whole "lets use our infinite oil money to fund some cool architecture" and generally making money), altough it is rather accepting of some things christianity will still bend its nose to, like sex change surgery, but thats due to some rather disturbing cultural/religious nuances and it doesn't mean muslim trans people are well treated (homosexuality is strictly condemned, but apparently a man changing into a woman is acceptable, altough a woman changing into a man is not acceptable, for some reason).
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 09:14:49 am by TempAcc »
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Teneb

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #3588 on: November 17, 2015, 09:16:57 am »

specially during the dark ages, when christianity was more about LETS BURN EVERYONE rather than developing philosophy and stimulating morality and charity.
Actually christianity burning people was only from more or less the renaissance and onward. The Church's authority in Europe during the middle ages was pretty much absolute... so it didn't actually need to go around intimidating people. The cathars appearing was one of the points where "burn the heretic" started getting popular.

Not to say the Europe of that time wasn't backwards in terms of technology and such, but in other ways (poor hygiene, eating with hands, little-to-non-existent bureaucracy, etc).
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #3589 on: November 17, 2015, 09:45:22 am »

But yea, why does every time someone starts talking about the inherent problems of Islam, someone always does the ~well what about all those awful religions/creeds/political groups/sandals/etc, why aren't you talking about them too? Thats problematic~ thing and do whatever they can do to shift the discussion away from the fact that Islam is driving force behind incredibly massive waves of violence, terrorism and war right now, and that it has constantly been like this (though at different levels) for the recent decades? This isn't even something thats discussed only by non-Muslims either, there are many Muslims who admit to this and call for a new Islamic movement that distances themselves from the warlike intolerant Islam that seems to dominate the most vocal groups in the religion, or is met with passive, silent support from others, either in the form of the strange sense of masochistic ~progressiveness~ that tolerates intolerance and that has infected every layer of western society, or actual intent in subjugating everything in favor of an Islamic view.
Well, there's this oft-linked article arguing that it may have something to do with the fact that both sides of the Islamism debate act as the opposing side's primary outgroup: Islamophobes act as the Progressives' outgroup, and vice versa. The debate is supposedly such an incestuous affair that the actual Islamists out there are rendered into featureless bogeymen or political hobbyhorses that have no connection with reality---hence the characteristic acts of exaggeration or dismissal perpetrated by each party, respectively.

That's just one theory, though, and there are probably more nuanced ones. Like, for example, there's this absolutely brilliant article that I'm reading right now...

EDIT: One of the points in the American Reader article is that the less-than-liberal wing of the contemporary Left is looking at everything through the paranoid lens of structural injustice, to the extent that blatant and shameless injustice like terrorism seems less insidious---and therefore less dangerous[!]---than the omnipresent ills of organized society. There's a great quote from Marcus Garvey, the famous black activist:

Quote
I regard the Klan, the Anglo-Saxon clubs and White American societies, as far as the Negro is concerned, as better friends of the race than all other groups of hypocritical whites put together. I like honesty and fair play. You may call me a Klansman if you will, but, potentially, every white man is a Klansman, as far as the Negro in competition with whites socially, economically and politically is concerned, and there is no use lying.

I mean, that almost makes sense, doesn't it? Uncle Sam professes his love for you and stabs you in the back, whereas the Klansman waves a noose in front of your face and tells what he's going to do with it. The hypocrite Ivy League prof. preaches tolerance while groping female students and shitposting on Stormfront, whereas the terrorist wants to kill you dead along with everyone you love, and he's perfectly honest about it. Which of these adversaries would seem more "trustworthy" and less dangerous when viewed through the paranoid goggles of social criticism?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 10:10:17 am by SirQuiamus »
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MaximumZero

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #3590 on: November 17, 2015, 09:46:49 am »

I would not consider a minimal amount of bureaucracy to be backward. We could really use less of it now.
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TempAcc

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #3591 on: November 17, 2015, 10:15:19 am »

Reading bits of the article now, won't be able to read it completely right now, but its something I'll get back to when I get home.

EDIT: Food for thought.

Keep in mind this is comming from the mouth of the second largest political party in England.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 10:21:27 am by TempAcc »
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Graknorke

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #3592 on: November 17, 2015, 12:24:56 pm »

"That's a bit problematic." Fucking lost it
Yeah, got me too.
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Bohandas

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #3593 on: November 17, 2015, 05:42:47 pm »

Reading bits of the article now, won't be able to read it completely right now, but its something I'll get back to when I get home.

EDIT: Food for thought.

Keep in mind this is comming from the mouth of the second largest political party in England.

Personally I agree that we should try to avoid killing violent religious extremists. We don't want to make martyrs. Every effort should be made to take them alive and let them live out their time on earth in the dismalest dungeon allowable under the Geneva Convention
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #3594 on: November 17, 2015, 05:55:39 pm »

We don't want to make martyrs.
dismalest dungeon allowable under the Geneva Convention
...That's going to make martyrs just as much as just killing them.
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TD1

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #3595 on: November 17, 2015, 06:34:04 pm »

Not just as much.

Besides, I think we should just leave them on their own. Did Britain find democracy because it was enforced on them by an external power/military?

The country will handle it by itself. As it is, we're a destabilising influence that gives the extremists a purpose.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #3596 on: November 17, 2015, 06:44:50 pm »

Britain found democracy after hundreds of thousands of people died horribly. Combine that with modern weaponry and terrorists who hate other countries... that's not the sort of thing you want to leave on its own. Unless you like people getting killed, obviously.
Also, didn't the instability in the Middle-East start after Western powers withdrew, leaving no stable government in place?
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #3597 on: November 17, 2015, 06:58:49 pm »

I think the US started meddling there pretty soon after Europe withdrew.
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TD1

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #3598 on: November 17, 2015, 07:16:29 pm »

Britain found democracy after hundreds of thousands of people died horribly. Combine that with modern weaponry and terrorists who hate other countries... that's not the sort of thing you want to leave on its own. Unless you like people getting killed, obviously.
Also, didn't the instability in the Middle-East start after Western powers withdrew, leaving no stable government in place?

And you think thousands of people aren't dying this way, and that an anti-West sentiment isn't growing? Yes. I would advocate leaving it alone. It's no business of ours, and we only make it worse. We impose democracy, leave, democracy collapses, come back, create a cycle. Instead let it run its course so they develop by themselves. As for the terrorists who hate other countries, why do they unless it's because we interfere so much?

Besides. If THEY declare war, then you act.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #3599 on: November 17, 2015, 07:21:08 pm »

...

they have declared war. ISIS (and the other terrorist folks) are already attacking Western countries. We're too far in to the cycle to just abandon the region completely.
Hell, the best option might be to just make the whole region a client state of the UN or something.
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