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[Vector]

@FoU: There's another contract-making character whose name has been mentioned in thread, but it's best not to speak of the devil.

Vector:

4maskwolf - lurking with an RVS vote when the game has moved on long ago. I actually think I've played with this player before and although they're usually somewhat disengaged, it's not this disengaged. This read is softer than the other ones on the list.

Have we played together?  I honestly don't remember which game that would have been.

I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure that either we played a game (I would guess a Beginner's game) or I read one of your games a while ago. Regardless: I recall that you aren't a WoT-spammer.

I don't have any ability to read their alignment because they've been focused exclusively on drawing attention to themselves without drawing much by way of conclusions.

I mean, you're the one who told me to go to sleep after spending a whole night doing just that. You're the one who asked me for a reads list, and I delivered. You didn't get anything from that?

I find your overall style of play so far concerning. You posted some reads, which I appreciated, but I still feel like your questions after that aren't progressing towards an action or a goal other than information-gathering, in an active-lurking sort of sense. Now, I'm also willing to admit that it could just be that your playstyle is very different from "vintage B12," and that my thinking could be outdated. So my comment is: "the overall picture here rubs me the wrong way, but I can't tell if that's a me-problem or an ICT-problem."

PPE: OK, your backpedal on LuckyOwl is a point in your favor for now.

--> clarifying for NJW

Apologies. This is going to be a massive WoT.

Spoiler: Spoil'd because it is crazy-long (click to show/hide)

Yeah, so: I have a number of things that I think are important pieces of good play (especially for D1).
- Getting general reads on everyone in the game
- Rooting out 3rd parties
- Looking for a scumteam
- Searching for/confirming town
- Bolstering newbies so that they're not playing as badly as they started by LYLO
- Protecting the town from a tendency to chain lynches on people making dumb mistakes, due to frustration/exhaustion/policy.

The last two of these are top priorities for me and often aren't at the top of the list for other players. A lot of my D1 is about protecting the late game so that everyone's hunting efforts can be successful.

Right now, I know a few things from prior experience: first, if we end up repeatedly lynching noob players who turn out to just be dumb townies, town is more likely than not going to get frustrated and scum are going to slide by. We have enough noobs in this game that it's a possibility this will happen (this is how scum typically wins beginner's mafia, by bringing up lynch targets who "look good"). Obviously we haven't lynched anyone yet, but -- at least when I'm playing scum -- I start planning and working to chain lynches on D1. So part of what I am trying to do is make it harder for scum to build an effective framework for the lategame, by working on the noobs now to find out their alignments and encourage them to act more like town. This means more help (hopefully) later in the game and a clarifying of the waters.

Note that I find doing this exhausting. It is hard work and I do not have infinite attention or energy. Now:

My list of probable scum has a lot of people who are lurking and standing to the side, not being too responsive, and two are vets. From long experience, Toony and Leafsnail are not going to be easy to lynch D1, especially when they both have a good excuse to not be online much (we're in holiday season). To get either of them lynched, I would need to tunnel them, by which I mean in this case that I would need to assume that they are scum and do everything in my power to draw attention to them. Picking apart every one of their meager posts and looking for the needles in the haystack. This is more likely to exhaust me than it is to result in either of them being hanged, because we're playing a game with a relatively small proportion of veteran players. Mathematically speaking it's almost certain that some of the vets other than me are town, but we don't have many of them who could say something like "ah yes, I recognize Toony's meta, this is exactly like game X Y Z. Let's vote." Or "let's hassle him together until scumtells come out."

What I'm trying to say is: no matter who is town and who isn't, the amount of accumulated daygame experience compared to the number of players present is small. I want to examine Toony and Leafsnail on future days, when there is more evidence (provided that I'm still around), but I also think that running a bandwagon on either of them would a. take a lot of personal effort b. possibly wear out our other human resources or muddy the water if I'm wrong and c. if I was unsuccessful in getting either lynched today and was wrong, it would be easy for noob town to bring the case back up later and run with it, or for scum to weaponize it (this is also why I haven't followed up very much on ICT's verbal slip. They didn't react very strongly and that was good enough that I thought the cost of continuing to push on that would be greater than the potential benefit).

The reason why the number of noobs matters so much is that "lynch the noob D1," which is often how things end up going, becomes a highly non-viable strategy. Again, statistically speaking, it's likely that at least one or two of the raw recruits is town, so it's important for me to spend the effort to figure out which.

Also, getting through Toony or Leafsnail would require a lot of noise and a lot of WoTing back and forth on not much evidence, and we've already had more than enough chaos in D1. I would strongly consider it if we didn't have so many weird gambits and activity already.

That's just the vets.


Now, for the other two: I don't have a strong enough read on 4maskwolf or on Nirur Torir to say that either is scum right now. This is really gut -- there isn't even meta. The people who I spent my effort on previously, who I thought were scum, like FoU, seem to probably not be scum. But I do think I could potentially get a case going on 4mask or NT that would be successful today.

However: we're mid-day and we do have someone anti-town to lynch (if not a member of the scumteam, depending on what we hear from LO and what we can kick up through the rest of the Day). Getting a clear lynch on someone who isn't town in a 16-person BYOR on D1 is pretty fucking good.

Additionally, I don't want to pressure (by which I mean "make absolutely miserable in the old-school Vector fashion") two people who are fairly new to the game when we have a good-enough lynch already. If I tire people who are participating somewhat into lurking, that isn't good for town. Going ham on them/jumping down their throats/yes, tunneling, which would be what I needed to do if I wanted to drag one of them forward to lynch today, would probably further increase the "bad D1" feel and make the noobs less likely to play well later. If I'm right about, for example, Jim being town, which I believe is true more than I believe with certainty that these two are scum, then doing something that exhausts Jim and is not necessarily effective is not to my benefit. I want all the vets who I think are town to have some stamina left and I don't want to give Jim more excuses to activelurk.

Making a huge case isn't the only option, though. So I'm paying close attention to these two and their interactions and plan to shift my attention to asking them questions as D1 moves on, but I haven't given much focus to them yet because I was previously attending to everyone on the "acting crazy" list.

[Toaster]

IcyTea:

Oh.  Well, I did respond to that post here.  Did you want more?   Like I said, I'm looking at people besides you.  I like to ask lots of questions, and I'm doing that to a broad spectrum of people.

And I guess I understand what you're saying in the latter half, but until I'm convinced 100% a player is town (which may never happen), they're not completely off the hook.

The issue is that you're not trying to improve your reads after first impressions, to get closer to that 100% certainty someone is town (or scum).

Sure I have.  That's why I kept interacting with you after voting you, and still am doing so.

You asked me earlier for whom I suspect, and I reposted my reads list. Do you agree with my analyses? What information were you seeking to receive from it?

At the time I didn't see much actual hunting results out of you, and I wanted to know what you were actually doing or thinking.  The information I wanted is what you were thinking at the time, which I suppose I got.  Your reads are adequate, I suppose, though your case on me is... you think I'm lazy?

You haven't played with Tric before. If you had, you'd know that he always gets obsessed with whatever the special mechanics of the setup happen to be, regardless of alignment. As far as I can tell, he honestly believes that what he's saying is what the town wants to hear. The mindset is anti-town, but it's also town!Tric.

I have not.  I'm not especially keen on doing another dive in other games to look at meta, so I'm going based on what I'm seeing right now.

If I read it right your case on Toaster is that he voted you and then didn't do the work to eventually conclude you're town. Do I have that right?

How is your case on Toaster not an elaborate OMGUS?

Because he's not willing to engage with me about his vote, despite effort on my part. Good town don't say "you're scum, discussion over," because they know they might be wrong, and discussing the matter is the best way to become certain. Scum already know their target is town, so they don't care about the discussion.

In other words, if he's town and does the work, he'll conclude I'm town, and wants do it to avoid a mislynch. If he's scum, he already knows I'm town and has no reason to do the work.

You saw I moved my vote, right?  You're far from trustworthy but I'm not convinced you're scum.


TricMagic:

TricMagic:

If you die, I get the hat you have. If you didn't have a hat, there would be no reason for your death. The Badges are completely separate from the number of hats I have. Put simply it's a 2/3 chance of me getting a hat that will keep me and others alive. In case of Ice, I can easily apply priority to it and intercept for someone. In the case of Brewer, I gain the ability to roleblock. In the case of Dweller, it's a loss for me. Sure it can give me badges, but it can also give tech or guns. The latter isn't that great for me, since that reduces the number of town more often than Mafia. More likely it would just become a town tool to learn things early rather than normal lynches.

Do you want IcyTea dead badly enough, for the sake of your hat, that you don't care whether they're town or not? Or do you think they're not town?

The main thing is a lack of willingness to give information when someone already did. The fact they apparently have an extra action now does not help IcyTea. The extra action I got does not help me at all, less I just want to do Leave a Comment for whatever reason. For whatever reason I'm being voted, so if you see IcyTea do strange things at night later on, now you know it's the Dweller Mask. Never actually changed my vote back. Still don't like the guy who just up'n'up and gave me a second action though, given it's uselessness to me. It doesn't actually change anything, picking a new badge is automatic.

I can't help but notice you didn't actually answer his question.

As for me being thrid party, that is a laugh coming from you Jim Groovester. You in my eyes are the penultimate third party. Leave a Comment is something everyone has from my understanding. If not, only some people got it apparently?

In the D1 opening post it says "all players" have access to the ability.

Also, do you have specific reasons that Jim is a third party or are you just lashing out?

[TricMagic]

Also quite a few messages on the whole Doc thing. The Ice hat protects from kills and guns, and can target someone. This by itself is Doc. If I were to use Ice Hat and Sprint Hat together, I would protect both myself and my target from being killed. If I had my Brewer Hat, I could roleblock someone, not as useful, but might keep me alive. This whole thing comes done to suspicion of Icytea and not revealing the info when I asked. He could have said no, but he danced around it where dolores, my main suspect at the time, came out and said which they had, and got the details right. And as I see it, if IcyTea is town, they're dead tonight. If they are mafia, high chance they have the Dweller Mask. Correction, Had the Dweller Mask. By this point they could trade it to keep it out of my hands.

Also JG actually coming in and picking at easy targets, kinda what I figured he'd do. But I put him at the outside of the whole mafia and just an SK Legendary Exterminator. My gut feeling there.

[IcyTea31]

It's not false information about alignment, it's hypothetically false information about an ability in your role. You just seem too defensive about it.

The more complete and correct the town's big picture is, the better, at least when it comes to information that's already been spilled where scum can see it. I plan to claim my abilities once it becomes relevant to do so, and it's best if the well isn't poisoned. Making sure LO also has the correct information themself also means that they'll be able to confirm my claim as true.

Combined with the lack of active, aggressive scum hunting (you've voted 3 people today: yourself, heydude, and Toaster),

My current scum reads are in no particular order ToonyMan, Jim Groovester, Toaster and you. My current town reads are Luckyowl, Vector, NJW2000 and heydude6. TricMagic is also not mafia (but may be another alignment). You haven't made a clear reads list and have had your vote on 10 different players. Surely there aren't that many scum?

I still feel like your questions after that aren't progressing towards an action or a goal other than information-gathering, in an active-lurking sort of sense.

The biggest question on D1 with new faces is "how does this person think?" which is how I spot players who aren't thinking in ways that are beneficial to the town. Yes, I'm gathering information, with the goal of understanding the other players. That's the main reason I started the day so provocatively.

I wanted to know what you were actually doing or thinking.  The information I wanted is what you were thinking at the time, which I suppose I got.

--

You're far from trustworthy but I'm not convinced you're scum.

Did you get the information you wanted, or are you uncertain of your read? Those are mutually exclusive.

[FallacyofUrist]

Tric:
Jim's demeanor definitely makes me want to look into his posts at a later point. Since you're voting him, care to make a case on him and try and sway us?

Also, please answer my question-set here directly:

Do you want IcyTea dead badly enough, for the sake of your hat, that you don't care whether they're town or not? Or do you think they're not town?

Additionally, you're not trying to say you're town, you're trying to say you're useful to town, which is basically manipulative bribery much like how I behaved in Mafiakart Racing with my own Outsider role. It didn't go well for the town that time and I think we ought to nip that in the bud here assuming we can't find someone who's probably or likely to be scum.

The more complete and correct the town's big picture is, the better, at least when it comes to information that's already been spilled where scum can see it. I plan to claim my abilities once it becomes relevant to do so, and it's best if the well isn't poisoned. Making sure LO also has the correct information themself also means that they'll be able to confirm my claim as true.

My current scum reads are in no particular order ToonyMan, Jim Groovester, Toaster and you. My current town reads are Luckyowl, Vector, NJW2000 and heydude6. TricMagic is also not mafia (but may be another alignment). You haven't made a clear reads list and have had your vote on 10 different players. Surely there aren't that many scum?

You didn't address my concerns about you being defensive at all. You're making no effort to pressure the people you claim as scum reads, as well. And I did make a reads list of sorts (quoted below), it just wasn't stated directly and clearly. I think you're mafia (75%) or some sort of hydra cult (25%).

I'm okay with a Tric lynch if we can't find scum, but I'd prefer to lynch a mafia player. The people I named in blue earlier still seem like the best place to start looking.

Jim Groovester: Would you be satisfied with a TricMagic lynch if that's how we hammered or the Day ended?

ToonyMan: Do you have anything solid on the recent proceedings to offer currently?

4maskwolf: I'm definitely waiting for the 'more thoughts' you mentioned.

I'm going to have to look more into juicebox and Leafsnail as well.

I feel like notquitethere, dolores, heydude, and Vector have been working solidly in the town's interests, though of course I'll reevaluate this as the game goes on.

Updating the list, I feel like IcyTea is scum and 4maskwolf is putting more effort forwards which makes me up his odds of being town mildly. LuckyOwl feels like new town.

Do y'all wanna see some fancy codified list thing, or is this enough for you?

[webadict]

hector13 gets up from his fetal position and walks over to TricMagic.

"Am I a robot? Tell me! Can you see any gears on me? Recognition of my own sentience brings me into further doubt that I was ever in control of my own actions to begin with. Does that make free will a lie? What if we're all just programs, interacting with all available inputs and generating a consistent output from it?"

TricMagic replies by telling hector13 that she doesn't talk to strange robots. hector13 falls to his knees, crestfallen.

Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf -
dolores -
FallacyofUrist - heydude6*,
heydude6 -
IcyTea31 - juicebox*, FallacyofUrist*,
Jim Groovester - TricMagic*,
juicebox - Luckyowl*,
Leafsnail - notquitethere*,
Luckyowl -
Nirur Torir -
NJW2000 -
notquitethere -
Toaster - IcyTea31*,
ToonyMan - 4maskwolf*, dolores*,
TricMagic - Leafsnail*, ToonyMan*, Vector*, Jim Groovester*, Toaster*,
Vector -
No Lynch -

Not Voting - Nirur Torir*, NJW2000*,

9 to Hammer. Day ends on December 29, 2020 at 19:00 CST (~50 hours from now).

[heydude6]

Well, I think it's time I finally give my reads list. I'm going to have to go on an errand soon, so I don't have the time to go through everyone's posts again. As a result, I'm not going to give a read for every player, but only the ones that leave an impression on me. Once I'm free again, I'll probably take the time to look through the posts and provide a a complete version of this list, while fleshing out

Dolores: Town-lean so far. Scum hunts aggressively and is keen to verbally whip the town into playing better (at least based on his definition of playing better). A mafia enjoys an incompetent town, so I doubt they would try as hard as Dolores does. If this is how they usually play though, then maybe they're just keeping up appearances for meta-reasons

Fallacy of Urist: I'm finally coming around to the idea that they might be town. Emphasis on might. They dropped that silly act at the beginning of the game and are actually trying now. In my opinion, he's managed to make the most persuasive argument for lynching Tric, yet has the awareness to know that our goal is to lynch scum, not 3rd parties. He's not settling for a Trickmagic lynch the way Vector is.

There are things I find questionable though:

Revealing his french fry powers. The main downside of a role reveal in mafia is that the mafia knows what you're capable of and will try to play around it. That's why roles that can't be punished by the mafia very well tend to be imbalanced (I'm still salty about the self-targeting transporter). What this means though is that scum have less to risk with a role reveal, and so such reveals should be scrutinized. A good townie will only reveal their role when doing so can provide a tremendous benefit to the town, like a cop who's making a pivotal accusation. Threatening people with an ability that Fallacy himself admits to be weak does not provide a tremendous benefit to the town. We can't even consider the possibility of him deliberately understating the power of his ability to stay out of the scum's radar, because he actually used it. If any of the four people fallacy targeted are scum, then the entire scum team knows what he's capable of. It doesn't matter if Webadict took it back. Once that information is out, you can't hide it anymore.

That opening play: I still think it was a bad idea. You say that it was a trap to catch scum who overreacted. Has it actually benefited you in any way? Give a summary of the benefits if you can.

Spoiler: An Aside (click to show/hide)

... there's actually a Hat In Time villain who uses contracts - the Snatcher. Not sure if it's likely to be relevant, but it's an interesting thought.

Definitely not relevant. That Hat in Time villain is named Snatcher, not Beelzebub.

Trickmagic: Definitely third party. Some people say he's scum and I'm just not seeing it. I know role names aren't alignment indicative (maybe hat kid got caught in another contract again), but abilities can be. An item shop usable by everyone and an ability that automatically harvests macguffins from dead players both give me 3rd party vibes. Can any of the veterans here tell me if there's a precedence for people with this kind of ability being scum?

The fearlessness behind the reveal is still scummy though. If any of the scum team has a hat, then TricMagic has an incentive to want them dead that can't be talked out of. They can of course give him the hat, but why do that when you can just kill him? Not a problem if Tricmagic is scum though.

If that were the case though, scum would have already given him their hats and given him a head start on his stated goal of becoming more powerful. I don't think Web would let this happen, so if Tric were scum somehow, then the hats would all belong to townies. Since all items are give able, you would suddenly have an easy way of confirming town.

Since a random hat distribution and a town-only hat distribution both lead to absurd mechanical exploits when Tric is Scum, I have to conclude that he really is a third-party. Unless Tric has massively lied about how his role works. That's also a bit absurd from someone like Tric, but I think he may have done this before. Can any of the veterans confirm if this is the case?

He could also be town, but-

Bahahahahahah! Sorry, I couldn't say that with a straight face. It's more likely than him being scum, but it would be hilarious if that were the case after everything that's happened.

So, since Tric is third party, what should we do about him? As far as I know, the badge shop benefits the town more than scum, and the hats do not seem like they can do much actual harm. The most dangerous ones are Time-stop hat, Dweller mask, and Brewer's hat, while sprint hat and ice hat are outright altruistic. I don't think Tric is lying about what the hats do because the person who has the real thing would have called it out.

To me, the decision all revolves around whether he has a night-kill. If he does, then we need to get rid of him cause a third party would totally murder Iceytea for their hat. If the worst thing he can do to town is vote though, then I'm totally keen to leave him in search of bigger fish.

Notquitethere: Hasn't posted much, but what little he has gives me scum vibes.

heydude6 do you play well under pressure?

He asks me if I struggle under pressure, and when I say yes, I soon afterwards get pressure in the form of the contract double-target that pits Iceytea and I against eachother.

Another thing I had a problem with was his vote analysis.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

All Player's Current Cases and Their Reasons

FallacyofUrist - 4maskwolf (low content voting), heydude6 (random vote?),

IcyTea31 - Jim Groovester (random vote with more reasons added later), Toaster ('scum slip')

Luckyowl - Nirur Torir (hasn't answered questions yet), NJW200 (for buddying IcyTea hard), Juicebox (bizarre playstyle), TricMagic (inconsistent logic - 4th vote on the wagon!)

Toaster - IcyTea31 (not having a town mindset), FallacyofUrist (random vote),

ToonyMan - dolores (disengaged style)

TricMagic - Leafsnail (posting from a scum mindset), ToonyMan and Vector (for persuing a 3rd party wincon)

Juicebox - Luckyowl (writing a wall of text is scummy?)

Nirur - notquitethere (low pressure pressure vote)


===

Quick Summary of How Bullshit These Cases Are In order of Most to Least

1 - Cases Of Dubious Substance

LuckyOwl, Leafsnail, Toaster, Jim Groovester, IcyTea31

2 - Low Effort Pressure & Random Voters Who Still Need To Form A Case

NQT, Heydude6, Nirur Torir, FallacyofUrist

3 - Cases That Don't Actually Hunt Mafia

Toonyman, Vector (third party hunting isn't necessarily bad but it is something that's very easy for scum to do productively while seeming active)

4- Cases Which Might Go Somewhere

NJW200, Juicebox, IcyTea, 4maskwolf, TricMagic, dolores


So right now I'm thinking, lynch out of #1 pile, and expand the pile to include any of #2 that don't come up with anything good. Review #3 on later days, and reassess #4 as and when new developments arise.

He claimed that my vote on fallacy was a random vote, and ignored the fact that I voted him because the tunneling strategy he claimed to be using at the beginning of the game was very bad, perhaps deliberately bad as an excuse to avoid having to properly hunt scum.

Iceytea also had a problem with his analysis and when he asked him about how it was actually done, he said this.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

How does one read these tables? Are you reading people's cases only on where their votes are?

The first list was a current vote count with all the reasons for each vote listed. Talk is cheap, I mostly just care about votes. The second list was a list of how spurious I thought each of the cases was.

Iceytea states the problem with this response in a very elegant manner.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Thing is, most cases are the whole conversation preceding and succeeding them, not just the single post with the actual vote. This is a very non-holistic method of evaluation, and also very different from the methods I've seen you use in the past. What's changed?

A lot of people seemed to have been happy with the list, but that makes sense. If you're trying to damage a person's credibility, you should only focus on a small amount of people. If you used these kinds of methods on everyone, no one would put much stock into what you have to say.

There are also some cases of blatant rolefishing.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Luckyowl

Well, if I'm going to die. I'll utilize my role.

TricMagic I just used my day action on you. When I use my action a passive skill is trigger that allows me to choose another player. I chose IcyTea31.

What does your ability do?

Tric, a lot of players think you're 3rd party. You're quite likely to die today or at least catch a hostile night action at this rate. Do you want to claim what your role really is?

I already explained why rolefishing benefits scum, but I am particularly bothered by the one done against Tricmagic. In addition to a really threatening tone, if he really is gonna die tonight, then we'll find out on his flip. This question only has a point if Tric survives, but who would be benefiting from that knowledge in this case? Without his hats, Tric can't really do much. He definitely can't help the scum tonight. I think this question is only being asked because scum wants to know if Tric could become a threat to them in the future. If they have one of his hats, then he is already their enemy. The only question left to ask at that point then, is whether he needs to be taken care of. If they really want that information though, I'd rather have them waste their scumkill to get it.


It's not an ironclad case, but I think there is room to doubt NQT's intentions. Something I haven't seen anyone do so far.


Damn. This ended up being bigger than I thought. I'm not even close to done, but I put off my errand long enough. NQT isn't my only scum read, but it's the simplest case I can make.

[TricMagic]

Vote Count
------------------------
 
TricMagic - Leafsnail*, ToonyMan*, Vector*, Jim Groovester*, Toaster*,


9 to Hammer. Day ends on December 29, 2020 at 19:00 CST (~50 hours from now).

Eh, can at least die knowing that list of people are the most sus to ever be suspected.

And yeah, me being town is a laugh isn't it heydude. At least my death would give information on flip. Some of these have to be scum I feel.

[FallacyofUrist]

It's okay, hector-kun. You can be a robot and still be a real person. Hugs the poor fellow.


That aside, Tric's got 5 votes on him right now. Like I mentioned I'd be okay with lynching him, even hammering him, but I'd prefer to lynch scum. The people who are voting him for passive reasons, taking the, potentially, 'safe bet', are where we should start applying pressure (in addition to the entirely defensive IcyTea for example).

Additionally, two people still aren't voting.

Nirur Torir: Why aren't you voting?

NJW2000: Of all the cases going on right now, which one looks the most likely to hit a mafia player to you?

heydude6:

Fallacy of Urist: I'm finally coming around to the idea that they might be town. Emphasis on might. They dropped that silly act at the beginning of the game and are actually trying now. In my opinion, he's managed to make the most persuasive argument for lynching Tric, yet has the awareness to know that our goal is to lynch scum, not 3rd parties. He's not settling for a Trickmagic lynch the way Vector is.

There are things I find questionable though:

Revealing his french fry powers. The main downside of a role reveal in mafia is that the mafia knows what you're capable of and will try to play around it. That's why roles that can't be punished by the mafia very well tend to be imbalanced (I'm still salty about the self-targeting transporter). What this means though is that scum have less to risk with a role reveal, and so such reveals should be scrutinized. A good townie will only reveal their role when doing so can provide a tremendous benefit to the town, like a cop who's making a pivotal accusation. Threatening people with an ability that Fallacy himself admits to be weak does not provide a tremendous benefit to the town. We can't even consider the possibility of him deliberately understating the power of his ability to stay out of the scum's radar, because he actually used it. If any of the four people fallacy targeted are scum, then the entire scum team knows what he's capable of. It doesn't matter if Webadict took it back. Once that information is out, you can't hide it anymore.

That opening play: I still think it was a bad idea. You say that it was a trap to catch scum who overreacted. Has it actually benefited you in any way? Give a summary of the benefits if you can.

Weak initially. Stronger consequences later. As I don't want to expose too much of what I can do to the scum, like how LuckyOwl has, I'll have to call spoilers for now. I still think it was worth doing, though. One, it was fun, and I'm trying to have fun here. Two, I know I'm likely to attract some actions tonight because of my play today. All according to keikaku ~

TricMagic:

Eh, can at least die knowing that list of people are the most sus to ever be suspected.

And yeah, me being town is a laugh isn't it heydude. At least my death would give information on flip. Some of these have to be scum I feel.

A defeatist attitude is also pretty anti-town. If you want to avoid lynching, how about you answer my questions here for a start?

Tric:
Jim's demeanor definitely makes me want to look into his posts at a later point. Since you're voting him, care to make a case on him and try and sway us?

Also, please answer my question-set here directly:

Do you want IcyTea dead badly enough, for the sake of your hat, that you don't care whether they're town or not? Or do you think they're not town?

Additionally, you're not trying to say you're town, you're trying to say you're useful to town, which is basically manipulative bribery much like how I behaved in Mafiakart Racing with my own Outsider role. It didn't go well for the town that time and I think we ought to nip that in the bud here assuming we can't find someone who's probably or likely to be scum.

[Leafsnail]

Also, what did I claim? Friendliness? No Bonk negates kills made by the wearer, so it's an option to buy it and give it to another?

As for me being thrid party, that is a laugh coming from you Jim Groovester. You in my eyes are the penultimate third party. Leave a Comment is something everyone has from my understanding. If not, only some people got it apparently?

Wait, are you claiming to be town now? I am struggling to parse this and to reconcile it with your previous post.

Second, I am in New Game+, and some mustached person stole my hats and gave them out. I need to collect them again either by death or gift.

Third, I am THE Hat Kid. The hats are mine, and I can use two more hats each night.

To Hats. Shows Sprint Hat: Interception. Anyone that targets my target gets intercepted, and I'm the new target.
Time Stop Hat: Delay for a cycle.
Brewing Hat, AKA one of my win options to improve survival with the Compass Badge. I explode you, not the other way around. Roleblock.(Though could be kill cause I know mafia and town will both think that.)
Ice Hat, AKA my other win condition. Total protection from kills and guns, making me a doctor through Intercept. It can target others too, so don't need to use it on myself.
Dweller Mask, AKA Mafia's dream weapon. It generates random tech, badges, and guns. Which can then be used by the rest of the team in case of badges. Not all that useful compared to the others for me.


Also, make sure to Leave a Comment, am I town or mafia? Well, not the latter, I propose we all say DOWN WITH THE MAFIA instead. Holds up sign with a crossed out cook.

I thought you saying that you "need to collect them again" and then going on to mention win conditions, combined with the fact that you seemed to care more about taking a hat from IcyTea than you did about his alignment, meant you were claiming a non-town alignment. Also note how the last paragraph says that you're not mafia, but doesn't say that you're town. Also if you're town then why do you have an ability that's specifically good in the hands of the mafia? I don't get it.

[heydude6]

Tric understates its value for town. You can use the items the dweller mask generates for yourself, or share them amongst people you trust.

[TricMagic]

Indeed, but guns aren't really a good thing I think. Mafia knows who is in the team, so in their hands it is really dangerous if left alone. Granted, it's luck based, but extra kills aren't a good thing. The rest of the random stuff it grants I'm not sure about. The other two have power though in keeping me alive and others. A doc that can't be nightkilled is pretty strong. The Brewer Hat and Compass Badge are also a good combo. The Time Stop Hat gives me a delay to mess with someone's action, including my own. Overall, right now I'm just a bodyguard of sorts that is going to be hit with everything targeting someone. I saw them mentioning info town doesn't have and alt win conditions, and came to the correct conclusion those two had some of them, and used that to get info on alignment.

[FallacyofUrist]

TricMagic:

Jim's demeanor definitely makes me want to look into his posts at a later point. Since you're voting him, care to make a case on him and try and sway us?

Do you want IcyTea dead badly enough, for the sake of your hat, that you don't care whether they're town or not? Or do you think they're not town?

Normally I wouldn't go to such lengths to make my text visible, but I think I've put up these questions two to three times by now and had them not be noticed, so... here you go.

[Jim Groovester]

Huh, missed this the first time around. Thanks to Jim Groovester for putting it in his post (though I still think he's being lazy and voting for someone who's 80% likely to be a third party instead of trying to find someone who's actually scum).

If you want to vote me there's nothing stopping you.

What do you think of everybody else who is voting for or has voted for TricMagic? Is being suspected by you for that a privilege I alone possess or do I share it with others?

I'm seeing this pop up a lot as a reason for voting people on a bunch of different cases. Is there anybody actually having a good Day 1?

I am absolutely having fun! Except someone messed with my fry-giving action. Sad ;w;

I meant productive.

Jim Groovester: Would you be satisfied with a TricMagic lynch if that's how we hammered or the Day ended?

Yes.

I'm giving you fries tonight, IcyTea31. When talking about role mechanics, we must always keep in mind we're doing it as a means to an end. We win when we find the mafia and kill them all, along with any serial killers, cults, or other anti-town roles we find along the way. You seem very fixated on this Hydraform business when it has nothing to do with finding who the mafia are.

wtf didn't mere posts before this one you spend a whole post figuring out who targeted who and with what action? Weren't you just as fixated about this as you accuse IcyTea31 of being?

To note, haven't read the rest, but this is the last day of play for me. Given I have no more hats, and people are pushing to kill me, ala Toaster? I propose this scumteam.

Why are you giving up when the day ends on the 29th?

Also, make sure to Leave a Comment, am I town or mafia? Well, not the latter, I propose we all say DOWN WITH THE MAFIA instead. Holds up sign with a crossed out cook.

Oh, so you are a third party. Neato. TricMagic.

I'm trying to think of a third party win condition that isn't friendly to the mafia but I'm only coming up with SK or Cult but I'm not that creative when it comes to BYOR mechanics and alignments.

I looked at those but none of those strike me as unfriendly to the scum team, which is what TricMagic claimed.

It wasn't? Kinda felt like it with the votes coming in and pressure being applied.

Also, what did I claim? Friendliness? No Bonk negates kills made by the wearer, so it's an option to buy it and give it to another?

As for me being thrid party, that is a laugh coming from you Jim Groovester. You in my eyes are the penultimate third party. Leave a Comment is something everyone has from my understanding. If not, only some people got it apparently?

Did I read your post wrong or something?

Because it looks to me like you claim to be 'not mafia' which is not the same as being town.

Also, please accuse me of being the ultimate third party instead of the penultimate one, because I don't enjoy ranking second.

Indeed, but guns aren't really a good thing I think. Mafia knows who is in the team, so in their hands it is really dangerous if left alone. Granted, it's luck based, but extra kills aren't a good thing. The rest of the random stuff it grants I'm not sure about. The other two have power though in keeping me alive and others. A doc that can't be nightkilled is pretty strong. The Brewer Hat and Compass Badge are also a good combo. The Time Stop Hat gives me a delay to mess with someone's action, including my own. Overall, right now I'm just a bodyguard of sorts that is going to be hit with everything targeting someone. I saw them mentioning info town doesn't have and alt win conditions, and came to the correct conclusion those two had some of them, and used that to get info on alignment.

Alright, you clearly read Leafsnail's post, but you continually dodge questions about your alignment.

You are not town, you are third party.

Spoiler: Spoil'd because it is crazy-long (click to show/hide)

Yeah, so: I have a number of things that I think are important pieces of good play (especially for D1).
- Getting general reads on everyone in the game
- Rooting out 3rd parties
- Looking for a scumteam
- Searching for/confirming town
- Bolstering newbies so that they're not playing as badly as they started by LYLO
- Protecting the town from a tendency to chain lynches on people making dumb mistakes, due to frustration/exhaustion/policy.

The last two of these are top priorities for me and often aren't at the top of the list for other players. A lot of my D1 is about protecting the late game so that everyone's hunting efforts can be successful.

Right now, I know a few things from prior experience: first, if we end up repeatedly lynching noob players who turn out to just be dumb townies, town is more likely than not going to get frustrated and scum are going to slide by. We have enough noobs in this game that it's a possibility this will happen (this is how scum typically wins beginner's mafia, by bringing up lynch targets who "look good"). Obviously we haven't lynched anyone yet, but -- at least when I'm playing scum -- I start planning and working to chain lynches on D1. So part of what I am trying to do is make it harder for scum to build an effective framework for the lategame, by working on the noobs now to find out their alignments and encourage them to act more like town. This means more help (hopefully) later in the game and a clarifying of the waters.

Note that I find doing this exhausting. It is hard work and I do not have infinite attention or energy. Now:

My list of probable scum has a lot of people who are lurking and standing to the side, not being too responsive, and two are vets. From long experience, Toony and Leafsnail are not going to be easy to lynch D1, especially when they both have a good excuse to not be online much (we're in holiday season). To get either of them lynched, I would need to tunnel them, by which I mean in this case that I would need to assume that they are scum and do everything in my power to draw attention to them. Picking apart every one of their meager posts and looking for the needles in the haystack. This is more likely to exhaust me than it is to result in either of them being hanged, because we're playing a game with a relatively small proportion of veteran players. Mathematically speaking it's almost certain that some of the vets other than me are town, but we don't have many of them who could say something like "ah yes, I recognize Toony's meta, this is exactly like game X Y Z. Let's vote." Or "let's hassle him together until scumtells come out."

What I'm trying to say is: no matter who is town and who isn't, the amount of accumulated daygame experience compared to the number of players present is small. I want to examine Toony and Leafsnail on future days, when there is more evidence (provided that I'm still around), but I also think that running a bandwagon on either of them would a. take a lot of personal effort b. possibly wear out our other human resources or muddy the water if I'm wrong and c. if I was unsuccessful in getting either lynched today and was wrong, it would be easy for noob town to bring the case back up later and run with it, or for scum to weaponize it (this is also why I haven't followed up very much on ICT's verbal slip. They didn't react very strongly and that was good enough that I thought the cost of continuing to push on that would be greater than the potential benefit).

The reason why the number of noobs matters so much is that "lynch the noob D1," which is often how things end up going, becomes a highly non-viable strategy. Again, statistically speaking, it's likely that at least one or two of the raw recruits is town, so it's important for me to spend the effort to figure out which.

Also, getting through Toony or Leafsnail would require a lot of noise and a lot of WoTing back and forth on not much evidence, and we've already had more than enough chaos in D1. I would strongly consider it if we didn't have so many weird gambits and activity already.

That's just the vets.


Now, for the other two: I don't have a strong enough read on 4maskwolf or on Nirur Torir to say that either is scum right now. This is really gut -- there isn't even meta. The people who I spent my effort on previously, who I thought were scum, like FoU, seem to probably not be scum. But I do think I could potentially get a case going on 4mask or NT that would be successful today.

However: we're mid-day and we do have someone anti-town to lynch (if not a member of the scumteam, depending on what we hear from LO and what we can kick up through the rest of the Day). Getting a clear lynch on someone who isn't town in a 16-person BYOR on D1 is pretty fucking good.

Additionally, I don't want to pressure (by which I mean "make absolutely miserable in the old-school Vector fashion") two people who are fairly new to the game when we have a good-enough lynch already. If I tire people who are participating somewhat into lurking, that isn't good for town. Going ham on them/jumping down their throats/yes, tunneling, which would be what I needed to do if I wanted to drag one of them forward to lynch today, would probably further increase the "bad D1" feel and make the noobs less likely to play well later. If I'm right about, for example, Jim being town, which I believe is true more than I believe with certainty that these two are scum, then doing something that exhausts Jim and is not necessarily effective is not to my benefit. I want all the vets who I think are town to have some stamina left and I don't want to give Jim more excuses to activelurk.

Making a huge case isn't the only option, though. So I'm paying close attention to these two and their interactions and plan to shift my attention to asking them questions as D1 moves on, but I haven't given much focus to them yet because I was previously attending to everyone on the "acting crazy" list.

I agree a lot with what you're saying here but saying you suspect ToonyMan and Leafsnail but aren't going to go after them because of the effort involved and the potential muddying effect on Day 1 puts me on edge a little.

He asks me if I struggle under pressure, and when I say yes, I soon afterwards get pressure in the form of the contract double-target that pits Iceytea and I against eachother.

Maybe I misread the thread but didn't you do that to yourself by putting IcyTea31 into your contract fakeclaim?

[Jim Groovester]

He asks me if I struggle under pressure, and when I say yes, I soon afterwards get pressure in the form of the contract double-target that pits Iceytea and I against eachother.

Maybe I misread the thread but didn't you do that to yourself by putting IcyTea31 into your contract fakeclaim?

I am missing the forest for the trees by asking this instead of questioning why you think notquitethere had anything to do with you being targeted by the contract other than pure gut feeling speculation.